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[OB] The Everstorm's purpose


thebestoralist

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Based on what we know of OB so far, the result of Stormform, and by proxy the Everstorm, was to heal the Parshmen of the damage to their minds/souls that was done millennia ago.  It apparently did not bond them with voidspren and automatically turn them all into Voidbringers, though it looks like it made such a process possible.

Here's what I'm wondering: was the purpose of the Everstorm truly to heal the Parshmen?  I know it did lots of damage and killed lots of people, but I find it strange that the Stormform Parshendi, with their red eyes and hateful Rhythms, were actually summoning a cure for their crippled people. That means a bit of Odium is flying around Roshar healing folks (as well as killing others).

Obviously Odium's endgame is to convert the healed Parshmen (are they all Parshendi now?) into Voidbringers, but it's notable how vehemently the Stormfather fought the Everstorm too.  In a way, the biggest splinter of Honor was fighting to keep an entire people crippled and enslaved, which seems contrary to Honor's intent.

Even more interesting, there seems to be a degree of free will in the Voidbringer conversion process. Odium doesn't want slaves apparently - he wants angry warriors fighting for liberation.  This  is somewhat in line with his intent as a Shard, but doesn't quite paint him as the all-evil god we've come to expect.

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  • Pagerunner changed the title to [OB] The Everstorm's purpose

1) Why would it be weird that the Stormform would summon a cure for THEIR people. That sounds exactly like what they would do!

2) The Stormfather wasnt trying to prevent healing of a people as much as he was trying to prevent the healing of a people that are used as a tool and weapon of Odium. Yes, the parshmen have their own right to live, but from what we have seen, they are very much easily swayed to be transformed into Voidbringers. Either by manipulating them or by force. 

3) You say there is a degree of free will, but we know from Eshonai's experience that it was forced on her at a certain point and she is trapped. 

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1) mainly because the Eshonai pov indicated that the Everstorm was a weapon to destroy everything, not restore the Parshmen.

2) makes sense.  I wonder if he even knew about the healing effect or not.  He hasn't mentioned it to Dalinar, that I recall.  His opposition to it may have just been a knee-jerk reaction to Odium's involvement.

3) I'm a little foggy on her transformation, but she sought out Stormform, right?  It turned out to be very different than what she expected, and in the end she was trapped in the form, but no one forced her into it, right?

 

Edited by thebestoralist
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47 minutes ago, thebestoralist said:

Based on what we know of OB so far, the result of Stormform, and by proxy the Everstorm, was to heal the Parshmen of the damage to their minds/souls that was done millennia ago.  It apparently did not bond them with voidspren and automatically turn them all into Voidbringers, though it looks like it made such a process possible.

Here's what I'm wondering: was the purpose of the Everstorm truly to heal the Parshmen?  I know it did lots of damage and killed lots of people, but I find it strange that the Stormform Parshendi, with their red eyes and hateful Rhythms, were actually summoning a cure for their crippled people. That means a bit of Odium is flying around Roshar healing folks (as well as killing others).

Obviously Odium's endgame is to convert the healed Parshmen (are they all Parshendi now?) into Voidbringers, but it's notable how vehemently the Stormfather fought the Everstorm too.  In a way, the biggest splinter of Honor was fighting to keep an entire people crippled and enslaved, which seems contrary to Honor's intent.

Even more interesting, there seems to be a degree of free will in the Voidbringer conversion process. Odium doesn't want slaves apparently - he wants angry warriors fighting for liberation.  This  is somewhat in line with his intent as a Shard, but doesn't quite paint him as the all-evil god we've come to expect.

Why did the group with kaladin  avoid it the second time it came around?  I wonder if they go in it again they could possibly be bonded with a Spren. There must be some reason. Maybe they can't yet control who gets bonded with what Spren or something like that. Or maybe it is a permanent bonding and that is why they are called fused. 

Edited by jamskinner
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2 hours ago, thebestoralist said:

Based on what we know of OB so far, the result of Stormform, and by proxy the Everstorm, was to heal the Parshmen of the damage to their minds/souls that was done millennia ago.  It apparently did not bond them with voidspren and automatically turn them all into Voidbringers, though it looks like it made such a process possible.

Here's what I'm wondering: was the purpose of the Everstorm truly to heal the Parshmen?  I know it did lots of damage and killed lots of people, but I find it strange that the Stormform Parshendi, with their red eyes and hateful Rhythms, were actually summoning a cure for their crippled people. That means a bit of Odium is flying around Roshar healing folks (as well as killing others).

There are several things that don't make sense about this.  Agree about the Odium-power-leading-to-healing feeling off.  Also, how does Odium even have enough power on Roshar to produce a magical storm at all?  My understanding is that he is not primarily invested here, thus why he has to influence people indirectly via the Unmade etc.

Could the Everstorm be Cultivation power?  Odium (presumably) is responsible for triggering it in some way, but big storm on Roshar going the opposite way to Honor's one and healing Listeners along the way strikes me as more Cultivationy than Odious...

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26 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

The big thing that does not make sense to me is why..

Edgdancer Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

The Parsman in Yeddaw get glowing eyes when the Everstorm arrives. 

 

The Edgedancer board has been merged into the main Stormlight board. You can still spoiler tag if you like, but it isn't required. 

The red eyes seem to be an effect of Odium's Investiture on the listeners. If this is the case, as I suspect but have no proof of, all Parshmen in the storm would have glowing eyes as they were being healed.

To the main thread. 

Investiture in its raw form is investiture regardless of the Shard its sourced from. Odium's investiture may not be used for healing through powers as readily (though if it's bound to Roshar's surges, this also may be untrue), but the raw investiture should be just as capable of healing as Stormlight. 

The Everstorm seems to be multipurpose. Cause damage. Incite panic. Restore the ability to transform to a vast number of listeners, creating confusion, anger, and fear on all sides. As well as offering the potential of a much larger number of Fused who can be directly commanded and empowered. 

Edited by Calderis
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People keep equating "honor" with our subjective interpretation of "good". Aside from that being a subjective evaluation, and that it could be seen as good to harm evil, honor the idea is an adherence to a code of conduct. If that code involves harming voidbringers or opposing Odium then it not only doesn't contradict the intent, it is required by it. Honor the being is not a good guy. He's not even a nice guy. He's not a benevolent deity. He is unyielding and inflexible and intolerant. He is far from what we call good. At least he was, Honor is dead.

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The red eyes seem to be an effect of Odium's Investiture on the listeners. If this is the case, as I suspect but have no proof of, all Parshmen in the storm would have glowing eyes as they were being healed.

Ah ok. I jumped to the conclusion it was glowing red eyes but that’s not what it says could have just been glowing like Stormlight or something. 

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@aemetha "Honor" can have several meanings, but a lot of times it means something is worthy of praise or distinction, "an honored guest" or receiving an honor are examples.  I'm not saying Honor was necessarily a great guy, but his Shard's intent would push him toward being honorable, either by doing things worthy of recognition or sacrificing himself for what he perceived to be the greater good. 

Puts him in a much better position to be the good guy than the Hatred of God with no Context, ya know?

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15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Investiture in its raw form is investiture regardless of the Shard its sourced from. Odium's investiture may not be used for healing through powers as readily (though if it's bound to Roshar's surges, this also may be untrue), but the raw investiture should be just as capable of healing as Stormlight. 

Is that how it works?  I was under the impression that Stormlight was Honor's investiture, and that each Shard's power was slightly different based on the Intent. Sazed described Preservation as the power of stasis, while Ruin was the power of change.  As such I figured there were limitations on what a particular Shard could do with its Investiture (Preservation couldn't change things, Ruin couldn't freeze them in stasis).

Are there any other passages or WoBs that talk about "raw Investiture?" I'm genuinely curious. 

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@ScavellTane given how Kaladin describes the "dark light" around the Fused when they are (probably) Voidbinding to fly after him, I'm guess the run on Odium Investiture aka Voidlight. However, WoB says the spren predate the coming of the Shards, so a crafty spren may be able to let its partner draw from both. I be there would some crazy differences though, like the difference between saidar and saidin in WoT. 

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12 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Does the void-surges need Everstorm investiture or can regular stormlight do? Does Everstorm even grant investiture?

This is the first time there has been an Everstorm so there must be another way if there was voidsurging before which I would assume there was. 

Edited by StormingTexan
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2 hours ago, thebestoralist said:

Puts him in a much better position to be the good guy than the Hatred of God with no Context, ya know?

Yes and no. I would say the difference between honor and good in most cases is that good never accepts that the ends justifies the means. Honor is intolerant of what it perceives as unworthy, and so fights it no matter the cost, even when the cost of fighting is greater than the cost of submission or compromise. Good on the other hand will choose the path of least harm.

Hitler is an example of honor gone wrong. Adherence to a code and belief that his actions are for the greater good. Millions of people dead for a misguided and immoral goal, but that is not how he viewed it. He viewed himself as crusading for a more perfect world. He believed his goal was worthy. Nobody would ever accuse him of being good by our subjective appraisal, but you can make a convincing case that he had honor as I believe I have here.

My personal theory is that the secret that broke the knights radiant involved honor fighting and essentially driving the human race on Roshar towards extinction when it wasn't necessary. The fight with Odium is a fight between shards. Odium doesn't give a whit about humans, they are beneath his notice. Odium has never that we've seen sought to exterminate humans before. The other worlds he has visited all still have flourishing human populations. Honor tied Odium to Roshar and its humans and forced them into conflict with the shard. He did that because the ends justifies the means. Because it's always better to fight, no matter the cost. It isn't though. Good demands better. Good demands that harm is minimised.

So I see the conflict between Honor and Odium more as two people shouting at each other "I'm right!" "No, I'm right!". Shardic intent doesn't make any shard good, it only makes them extremist. Unless the shard is named "Compromise" they can't help but oppose each other, because they are incapable of seeing the conflict from the perspective of the others. The nature of the conflict may change according to intent such as (mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation taking very different approaches to the conflict

and conflict always has some collateral damage that needn't have occurred if the conflict had been resolved through compromise. So no shard that has been affected by intent for any significant period can really be called good.

Good is subjective, I admit that, and there will be different interpretations of it. I think ultimately almost all interpretations of good though involve minimising harm, and I don't think that is what Honor or any of the shards does.

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That's a very utilitarian approach, and not one that I wholly disagree with, but "goodness" can be defined a hundred different ways. I guess the easiest way to figure out where Tanavast fits in this conflict is to understand what his goals (which we don't) and his methods (not even close) were. 

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17 hours ago, thebestoralist said:

That's a very utilitarian approach, and not one that I wholly disagree with, but "goodness" can be defined a hundred different ways. I guess the easiest way to figure out where Tanavast fits in this conflict is to understand what his goals (which we don't) and his methods (not even close) were. 

Tanavast did buy Hoid drinks once, so he can't have been that bad a guy!

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5 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Semantics? voidlight, stormlight... its just investiture. 

Take allomancy for example..

Is not steel pushing and spike granted steel pushing just well.. steel pushing.

And in world, people thought of inquisitors as very different from allomancers. 

It's not just semantics. We don't know how different or similar the powers work yet. Considering the symmetry inversion on the voidbinding chart, I'm guess we'll be seeing some differences enough to make them markedly not surgebinders. 

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