skaa

theory
The Ghostblood Symbol = Aon Ati

20 posts in this topic

Nice work putting this together, but I do not believe the association is anything more than tangential.

For one just like you mentioned the Ghostbloods diamonds are side by side and not top down.  You say "These differences aren't even that big", but they are big.  The Aon Ati symbol doesn't even have diamonds in it, they make a somewhat diamondish shape but the bottom lines are curved where the top lines are straight and the shape of the Aon does not close at the bottom.  With the same reasoning on shape similarity there is a much better argument that the ghostbloods symbol is completely Vorin in origin.  The vorin women's script has actual diamond shapes in it and the Ghostbloods could have chosen their symbol to be a stylized version of 'mmm' , 'bbb' or 'ppp'. (Power, Prestige, Perfection? Make More Money?)

Also I don't like your second part, not do to any logical reasoning, but only because it messes with my headcannon.  The Aon of Hope being connected to and/or a symbol of Kelsier makes total sense.  It just conflicts with my very loose and unfounded theory that Kelsier is the in world leader of the 17th Shard.  (Kelsier calls Hoid 'Drifter' in SH and the Purelake foreigners call him 'Roamer' in the WoK interlude and one of Kelsiers favorite people, Demoux, is a member.  Seeing as Demoux was the founding priest of the church of Kelsier I really don't see him becoming a worldhopper and continuing to work for anyone other than Kelsier.)

Weather you are right or wrong about it I still enjoyed reading your thoughts and look forward to more.

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Very nice, @skaa! I like that you brought these ideas together. No idea if it's right, but hope and Kelsier and Ghostblood all fit together rather well.

And I am so curious about the official Ghostblood symbol... What Isaac showed me was simple and lovely, and something I'd happily wear on a necklace or something. Not for love of the group, just for the design itself. Only a few more days before we see it...

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12 hours ago, Iridium Savant said:

For one just like you mentioned the Ghostbloods diamonds are side by side and not top down.  You say "These differences aren't even that big", but they are big.  The Aon Ati symbol doesn't even have diamonds in it, they make a somewhat diamondish shape but the bottom lines are curved where the top lines are straight and the shape of the Aon does not close at the bottom.  With the same reasoning on shape similarity there is a much better argument that the ghostbloods symbol is completely Vorin in origin.  The vorin women's script has actual diamond shapes in it and the Ghostbloods could have chosen their symbol to be a stylized version of 'mmm' , 'bbb' or 'ppp'. (Power, Prestige, Perfection? Make More Money?)

Good point! As I said previously, I think the Ghostblood symbol is a "Rosharized" Ati. Imagine the Aon Ire's Scadrian form: the wave-like lines of the original became the crescent shapes used in the Steel alphabet. Note that both the Aons and the Steel alphabet are writing systems. Because of this, I was actually looking for a way to connect Aon Ati with Alethi glyphs, but obviously failed so I just dropped the writing system connection from the theory.

Thanks for showing me a much better (certainly more obvious, in hindsight) Rosharan writing system connection. :)

12 hours ago, Iridium Savant said:

Also I don't like your second part, not do to any logical reasoning, but only because it messes with my headcannon.  The Aon of Hope being connected to and/or a symbol of Kelsier makes total sense.  It just conflicts with my very loose and unfounded theory that Kelsier is the in world leader of the 17th Shard.  (Kelsier calls Hoid 'Drifter' in SH and the Purelake foreigners call him 'Roamer' in the WoK interlude and one of Kelsiers favorite people, Demoux, is a member.  Seeing as Demoux was the founding priest of the church of Kelsier I really don't see him becoming a worldhopper and continuing to work for anyone other than Kelsier.)

That's interesting! Note, however, that it was Hoid who referred to himself as a drifter to Kelsier.

Quote

“Who are you?” Kelsier said.

“I?” the man said. “I am a drifter. A miscreant. The flame’s last breath, made of smoke at its passing.”

“That’s . . . needlessly obtuse.”

“Well, I’m that too.” The man cocked his head. “That mostly, if I’m honest.”

It's possible that he introduced himself similarly to another person who then went to join the 17th Shard, hence the Roamer moniker.

As for Demoux' role in Survivorism, that's a wonderful point, but Iyatil's people also worshipped Kelsier. I will acknowledge the possibility of your headcanon being true (after all, we don't know if Iyatil herself worships Kelsier), but I still kind of like my idea more. :)

Edited by skaa
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Took me a min to find the WoB but Iyatil isn't actually from Scadrial.  Though her ancestors could have left before or after Kelsier became important to their culture.  

  • Quote

    INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2014

    Orem Signing Report - Zas678(Paraphrased)

    QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

    Is Mraize a worldhopper?

    BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

    Yes, he's been to a few planets, highly supervised by his babsk.

    QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

    So what planet is she [Iyatil] from?

    BRANDON SANDERSON

    Well, that's kind of a hard thing to say. She has three planets she's "from". For example, she's living now on Roshar, but then she's from a different planet, but that's not the planet that her people are from.

     

     
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10 hours ago, Iridium Savant said:

Took me a min to find the WoB but Iyatil isn't actually from Scadrial.  Though her ancestors could have left before or after Kelsier became important to their culture.  

Yeah, I know. That's why I'm not certain Iyatil worshipped Kelsier. But I think it's likely that her South Scadrian ancestors did, so there is still a possibility that she has been similarly indoctrinated. The point I was trying to make is that worshiping Kelsier, as Demoux did, is not necessarily indicative of Kelsier's connection to one's group. Demoux could have joined the 17th Shard for other reasons. Iyatil may not worship Kelsier at all. In the end our theories have an equal chance of being correct.

Edited by skaa
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22 hours ago, skaa said:

We know that Aon Ati represents the concept of Hope. Well, there is another entity in the cosmere that (ostensibly) represents hope, one who had prior encounters with Elantrian magic and likely learned more about it later on, one who by the way is as deceptive and as ruthless (likely more so) as any Ghostblood member we've seen so far:

So, I assume you're referring to Kelsier here, but having not read MB:SH yet, can you elaborate on how and when he comes into contact with Elantrian magic?

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1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

So, I assume you're referring to Kelsier here, but having not read MB:SH yet, can you elaborate on how and when he comes into contact with Elantrian magic?

Well, if you're sure...

He encounters a group of Elantrians called the Ire in some sort of fortress in the Cognitive Realm. The Ire were waiting for Leras to die so that one of them (Alonoe) could take Preservation using a glowing liquid that could briefly create enough Connection with Preservation to Ascend. Kelsier learned of this plan, stole the sphere containing the Connection liquid, and basically used the Ire's plan for himself. This is how Kelsier took Preservation.

Aside from that, he also witnessed an Elantrian device that could detect the presence of people from Threnody (though perhaps it could also be set to detect other races), and a huge, long cord that apparently connected the fortress to some far off power source (probably Elantris).

More importantly, Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow had the ability to magically learn the meaning of words just by seeing or hearing them; this was how he understood what "Ire" meant, and how he deciphered the Ire's plans which were laid down in a book he found inside the fortress. That book contained lots of Aons, so afterwards he would have known the meaning of a bunch of them, perhaps including Aon Ati.

Edited by skaa
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4 minutes ago, skaa said:

Well, if you're sure...

He encounters a group of Elantrians called the Ire in some sort of fortress in the Cognitive Realm. They were waiting for Leras to die so that one of them (Alonoe) could take  Preservation using a glowing liquid that could briefly create enough Connection with Preservation to Ascend. Kelsier learned of this plan, stole the sphere containing the Connection liquid, and basically used the Ire's plan for himself. This is how Kelsier took Preservation.

Aside from that, he also witnessed an Elantrian device that could detect the presence of people from Threnody (though perhaps it could also be set to detect other races), and a huge, long cord that apparently connected the fortress to some far off power source (probably Elantris). More importantly, Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow had the ability to magically learn the meaning of words just by seeing or hearing them; this was how he could decipher the Ire's plans which were laid down in a book he found inside the fortress. That book contained lots of Aons, so we know that afterwards he'd know the meaning of a bunch of them, perhaps including Aon Ati.

I've already given up on not hearing SH spoilers, also because I already kind of knew what it was about before coming to the Shard.

How would the "I am hope" fit with this, however, considering that he said that to the Lord Ruler (he did, right?) which, as far as I am aware, is before anything in SH, meaning he would not yet be Cosmere aware at that point.

Edited by Leyrann
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On 11/9/2017 at 8:28 PM, Leyrann said:

I've already given up on not hearing SH spoilers, also because I already kind of knew what it was about before coming to the Shard.

How would the "I am hope" fit with this, however, considering that he said that to the Lord Ruler (he did, right?) which, as far as I am aware, is before anything in SH, meaning he would not yet be Cosmere aware at that point.

Yeah, that was said to the Lord Ruler. But Kelsier referred to hope and even his self-proclaimed association to it all throughout Secret History. Here are just a few other notable examples:

Quote

 

[Leras was talking to Kelsier when Leras somehow felt the death of Rashek, who Leras liked]:

"What have you done?" [Leras] screamed.

Kelsier smiled. "Hope," he said softly. "I have hoped."

 

Quote

 

[A scene long after Ruin's escape and after the Ire encounter]:

"So much destruction," Kelsier whispered at the visions. "We can't survive this, can we? Even if we stop Ruin, we are doomed."

"No," Preservation said. "Not doomed. Remember... hope, Kelsier. You said, I... I... am..."

"I am hope," Kelsier whispered.

 

Lastly, when Ruin was tempting Spook to kill Beldre, Kelsier was there, repeatedly whispering "Hope" to Spook until the kid found the strength to fight the temptations and pulled his spike free.

So yeah, hope is a very important concept to Kelsier, perhaps as much as survival is. i think it's quite reasonable to imagine him using a symbol of hope as an insignia, even if the symbol was alien in origin.

 

Edited by skaa
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4 hours ago, skaa said:

More importantly, Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow had the ability to magically learn the meaning of words just by seeing or hearing them; this was how he understood what "Ire" meant, and how he deciphered the Ire's plans which were laid down in a book he found inside the fortress. That book contained lots of Aons, so afterwards he would have known the meaning of a bunch of them, perhaps including Aon Ati.

Actually, he didn't have that ability. He just absorbed Elantrian Connection from the fort walls, which let him understand the language and more things about them. It would give him the ability to understand Aons, maybe temporarily, so the theory still stands.

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11 hours ago, Sariel said:

He just absorbed Elantrian Connection from the fort walls, which let him understand the language and more things about them.

Upon re-reading the Ire chapter, I have to agree. You're right about how he got that ability. Thanks for the correction!

Also from re-reading, that Elantrian device that detects Threnodites looks awfully like an alerter fabrial. Could the Ire somehow be powering a Rosharan artifact using Selish Investiture? Okay this is getting off-topic...

Edited by skaa
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3 hours ago, skaa said:

Upon re-reading the Ire chapter, I have to agree. You're right about how he got that ability. Thanks for the correction!

Also from re-reading, that Elantrian device that detects Threnodites looks awfully like an alerter fabrial. Could the Ire somehow be powering a Rosharan artifact using Selish Investiture? Okay this is getting off-topic...

This is your chance! Now you can ask a cross-over question that isn't pure speculation.

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This may be a stupid question, but after reading this theory I picked up my copy of Elantris and had a look at the list of Aons at the end. Aon Ati wasn't one of them. When have we been presented with that design?

For clarification, I have the UK edition of Elantris and it is not the 10th anniversary edition. Could it be something that was included in the 10th anniversary edition?

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3 hours ago, bacuspren said:

This may be a stupid question, but after reading this theory I picked up my copy of Elantris and had a look at the list of Aons at the end. Aon Ati wasn't one of them. When have we been presented with that design?

For clarification, I have the UK edition of Elantris and it is not the 10th anniversary edition. Could it be something that was included in the 10th anniversary edition?

It certainly is in the Tenth Anniversary Edition. You could look up what the other Aons look like in the Coppermind article.

Edited by skaa
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3 hours ago, bacuspren said:

This may be a stupid question, but after reading this theory I picked up my copy of Elantris and had a look at the list of Aons at the end. Aon Ati wasn't one of them. When have we been presented with that design?

For clarification, I have the UK edition of Elantris and it is not the 10th anniversary edition. Could it be something that was included in the 10th anniversary edition?

To my knowledge it was created in relation to the short story The Hope of Elantris, so that an Aon could be included in the name of Matisse. Hence it wouldn't be included in the original publication but would be in the revised 10th Anniversary edition.

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10 hours ago, skaa said:

It certainly is in the Tenth Anniversary Edition. You could look up what the other Aons look like in the Coppermind article.

Dammit... I bought my book last year. Not fair that they don't sell the 10th anniversary edition in the UK! They should update it in newer editions...

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Ok, the more I look at this theory, the more sense it makes. 

And if it is wrong, it leaves a lot of questions, like why do we have that Scadrian version of that Aon?  Are there any other Scadrian-ized Aons? 

And that WoB about Kelsier should have our full attention, because all of this is a very Kelsier kind of thing to do. 

Ok, and this from an interview in The Deseret News:

Shiro Sanada: Will we see Kelsier in the Stormlight Archive series?

BS: You are not likely to see Kelsier in the Stormlight Archive series. I'll just say that. Not likely.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900003841/qanda-brandon-sanderson-on-the-importance-of-fiction-and-how-writing-influences-his-lds-faith.amp

That is neither a Yes, or a No, so it certainly leaves it open as a possibility. 

Edited by ZenBossanova
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4 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Ok, and this from an interview in The Deseret News:

Shiro Sanada: Will we see Kelsier in the Stormlight Archive series?

BS: You are not likely to see Kelsier in the Stormlight Archive series. I'll just say that. Not likely.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900003841/qanda-brandon-sanderson-on-the-importance-of-fiction-and-how-writing-influences-his-lds-faith.amp

That is neither a Yes, or a No, so it certainly leaves it open as a possibility. 

That WoB makes things a bit tricky. It makes me think Thaidakar isn't in fact Kelsier, but it's quite possible that the Ghostbloods are just the Rosharan branch of a bigger cosmere-wide organization. We'll see what happens.

Edited by skaa
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1 hour ago, skaa said:

That WoB makes things a bit tricky. It makes me think Thaidakar isn't in fact Kelsier, but it's quite possible that the Ghostbloods are just the Rosharan branch of a bigger cosmere-wide organization. We'll see what happens.

I fully expect that the Ghostbloods did not originate on Roshar. They seem like the most World-hopping group yet. 
There is no reason to expect Thaidakar is the ultimate authority for the Ghostbloods. He just seems to be in charge here on Roshar, or at least the one they know about. 

On a different note, I have long thought that the name Ghostblood is very unusual. But if it originated with the Cognitive Shadow Kelsier bringing himself, (and maybe other Cognitive Shadows!) back to life in the Physical Realm. 

The ending of the last Wax & Wayne book strongly suggests there are groups in the Cognitive Realm seeking for power. 

If Kelsier has been off-world, he has most likely become aware of the Ghostbloods, and if he is aware of them, then he is probably working with them. 

And if he is doing that, then he is probably in charge. 

That is a lot of speculation, but it does make sense. Now we just have to see if it is true. 

It reminds me of a saying I heard in grad school. There is nothing sadder than a beautiful theory murdered by an ugly gang of facts. 

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