[OB] Voidbinding & the yellow spren

[KidWayne]

So, as I read Chapter 31 and met the "Flying Fused" (trademark pending) - the voidbringers who chased Kaladin into the air - I had to remind myself which two surges Windrunners had again. Well I keep a folder on my PC with all kinds of pics, charts, and the like related to Cosmere novels. When I went digging for a surgebinding chart, I also came across something I downloaded in 2014 named "Voidbinder Chart." Then I realized that the symbols on that chart matched one that I had misnamed as "Surgebinding Chart." So I realized that it was actually a VOIDBINDING CHART! I have attached both files for your viewing pleasure.

 ← Voidbinder Forms

 ← Surgebinder Types / KR Orders

Kaladin's exploits in Chapter 31 show us that there is a voidbinder analog to windrunners (or Skybreakers). You'll notice that the surge glyphs on the voidbinding chart corrupt the symmetry of the surge glyphs on the surgebinding chart by bisecting them along the vertical axis, rotating the left side along the horizontal axis, and putting them back together. For example...

The idea being that there is a relationship between voidbinding and surgebinding. I'm suggesting that the relationship is that each of the magic systems operate along similar pathways resulting in a similar expression of the magic. The difference is what is powering the magic, or in more precise terms, whose investiture is powering the magic. However, no matter where it comes from something about Roshar is going to force the investiture to follow along a predetermined pathway. I imagine this is similar to how some appliances can accept batteries or power via an AD/DC adapter, no matter how the electrons are supplied, they will be sent through the circuitry to achieve the same result (of course there's no alternative to electrons when powering electrical appliances, whereas there are 16 different sources of investiture in the Cosmere). So, maybe a Mistborn example would be better...

Highlight for Mistborn spoiler: Ruin's investiture (via hemalurgy) affected metal in ways that were in line with the powers granted by Preservation's investiture (via allomancy) on Scadrial; that is, you have to use a steel spike to steal a coinshot's abilities and you have to use a copper spike to steal memories. There are some oddities, but you get my point. There's also a blending of the two shards' investiture that resulted in a balanced blend of both powers (i.e. Feruchemy).

So, similar to the Mistborn magics, the Rosharan magics operate along similar lines no matter which Shard's investiture is powering the magic. Obviously there will be important differences between the magic powered by the blended investiture of Honor & Cultivation (i.e. surgebinding) and that powered by Odium's investiture (voidbinding). I suspect that voidbinding is the literal opposite of surgbinding (it accomplishes the same effect in a opposite manner - if surgebinding pushes, then voidbinding pulls and vice versa - but that's a different post.

The question is whether voidbinding is the analog of Feruchemy (a mix of all three shards' investiture) - a result that works well assuming that the voidspren are corrupted or fallen radiant spren - or whether voidbinding is the analog of Hemalurgy (the magic that comes from only/mostly Odium's investiture).

Regardless, I think I've proved a solid connection between voidbinding and surgebinding and that it should result in voidbinders resembling surgebinders. Again, the flying voidbringers in chapter 31 strongly support that conclusion. However, that leaves two "problems"...

One is the yellow spren and the other is which surgebinders resemble StormForm.

I don't think the yellow spren is a problem so much as it supports my theory. Let's put the questions about her to bed...

Spoiler

   

I propose that this voidbinding glyph represents the Form granted by being Fused to a yellow voidspren (which I suspect is Decayform) and that is is the voidbinding analog of the Stonewards' glyph.

That leaves the question of which order of the KR is analogous to StormForm. Well, my best guess is that StormForm is likely to match the powers of the Dustbringers/Releasers. StormForm released the Everstorm. Lightning isn't that different from fire and the essence associated with Chach is spark. However, I'm not completely sure that I'm right because we haven't seen much from Malata yet.

Here are my best guesses:

 1. Windrunners → ???
 2. Skybreakers → Smokeform - Kaladin's pursuers in Ch. 31
 3. Dustbringers → Stormform *
 4. Edgedancers → ???
 5. Truthwatchers → Nightform
 6. Lightweavers → Mediationform
 7. Elsecallers → Scholarform (?) This may or may not be a form of power.
 8. Willshapers → ???
 9. Stonewards → Decayform *
10. Bondsmiths → ???

* Stormform could very easily be the Bondsmith analog with the storms and stuff; they also seem to be guiding/leading the non-Fused parshmen in Ch. 31

* I'm really not sure who matches up with Decayform since the details about them are so vague in the song about them from WoR. I based by guess on this line: "Watch where you walk, your toes to tread. O'er hill or rocky riverbed" It just sounds like stone/walking on stone is involved here.

That's it. Let me know what you think!

Edited November 7, 2017 by KidWayne
added a picture to illustrate symmetry

[Salkara]

What I find most interesting is that the glyphs for the surges on the voidbinding chart seem to be the same as the ones on the surgebinding chart except that one side is flipped upside down.

[KidWayne]

17 minutes ago, Salkara said:

What I find most interesting is that the glyphs for the surges on the voidbinding chart seem to be the same as the ones on the surgebinding chart except that one side is flipped upside down.

Yeah, it shifts the axis of symmetry from vertical (i.e. 90°) & symmetrical to mirrored symmetry at an approximately 30° slant.

 ← where the red line is the former axis of symmetry and the black line is the new axis of symmetry

Edit: After pulling out my protractor and checking it, it appears to be a 35° angle... whoops.

Edited November 7, 2017 by KidWayne

[bo.montier]

Dude, props to you for seeing that. I never would have made that connection. It's super interesting, for sure. I can't wait to find more out!!!

[KidWayne]

I just noticed something else interesting about this. If you mirror the KR glyphs and turn them upside down, most of them approximate the voidish glyphs. Have a look:

The primary exceptions appear to be the Edgedancer and Bondsmith glyphs. They're already weird though, because the voidish mate for those are in hexagons instead of circles. I think I figured the Edgedancer one out though:

If you were to take the mirrored glyph and stuff it into the hexagon, it would probably look very similar to the voidish glyph (the "leaves" would fold over onto one another). I have trouble making the voidish Bondsmith equivalent to work. I can kind of see it, but it doesn't follow the same pattern as the others.

[Naerin]

So I have a question, and I apologize if this is common knowledge and I'm just missing something. But why is there a woman depicted in the border for the Voidbinding chart?
Odium, the presumed source of Voidbinding, is male. And the Surgebinding chart is bordered by what I'm assuming are the ten Heralds. This suggests that the borders are thematic, using associated figures. 

What's more the female figure is strongly suggestive of the Nightwatcher. One arm is unadorned with light skin, the other seems cloaked in fabric, light and dark, mirroring the boon and the curse granted by the Nightwatcher. In turn, the Nightwatcher is strongly implied to be Cultivation. Wyndle (a cultivationspren) refers to the Nightwatcher as "Mother." So that seems pretty clear-cut. If not Cultivation herself at least an affiliate, like the Stormfather to Honor. And yet, a figure that thematically suggests her is featured in the border of the Voidbinding chart. Am I reading too much into this? Is there an easy explaination I've missed based on the context?

[StormingTexan]

@Naerin We actually have a WoB on this. 

 

 

Quote

 

Narkac

Who is the woman on the "Voidbringer Chart"?

Brandon Sanderson

Isaac did the art. It is just a pattern. She's no character in particular.

 

 

[Naerin]

Thanks @StormingTexan! That would have driven me crazy wondering over the implications and coming up with increasingly unhinged theories about Cultivation being the secret villain of the Stormlight Archives. Good to know I was just overthinking things and seeing connections where there weren't any. 

UNLESS....

[Dryone_2]

On 7.11.2017 at 8:16 PM, KidWayne said:

Yeah, it shifts the axis of symmetry from vertical (i.e. 90°) & symmetrical to mirrored symmetry at an approximately 30° slant.

 ← where the red line is the former axis of symmetry and the black line is the new axis of symmetry

Edit: After pulling out my protractor and checking it, it appears to be a 35° angle... whoops.

The voidish symbols don't have an axis of symmetry, they are rotated around the center.

[KidWayne]

3 hours ago, Dryone_2 said:

The voidish symbols don't have an axis of symmetry, they are rotated around the center.

It's a line of mirrored symmetry.

Anyway, that's less interesting to me than this:

  compare this to →   and then to this →  

Do you see how the upside-down StoneWard glyph approximates the voidish glyph in its place? I added colors in for those who don't immediately see it.

This one is probably the easiest of the ten to see...

Edited November 22, 2017 by KidWayne

[Dryone_2]

My point is that the void surge symbols do no have mirror symmetry, only rotational symmetry. Mathematically, if you combine two mirrors along different axes (eg. first left/right, then up/down) you get a rotation. 

But I'm just nitpicking. The fact that there is a relationship between surgebinding and voidbinding symbols is more interesting. 

I wonder if the fact that one side of the voidsurge symbols is twisted means that this surge is working differently for each of the connected orders. That is, one order uses it like a surgebinders and the other order uses it in an inverted way. Example for Renarin: illuminating vs. being illuminated. 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

On 11/7/2017 at 0:59 PM, KidWayne said:

Here are my best guesses:

 1. Windrunners → ???
 2. Skybreakers → Smokeform - Kaladin's pursuers in Ch. 31
 3. Dustbringers → Stormform *
 4. Edgedancers → ???
 5. Truthwatchers → Nightform
 6. Lightweavers → Mediationform
 7. Elsecallers → Scholarform (?) This may or may not be a form of power.
 8. Willshapers → ???
 9. Stonewards → Decayform *
10. Bondsmiths → ???

* Stormform could very easily be the Bondsmith analog with the storms and stuff; they also seem to be guiding/leading the non-Fused parshmen in Ch. 31

* I'm really not sure who matches up with Decayform since the details about them are so vague in the song about them from WoR. I based by guess on this line: "Watch where you walk, your toes to tread. O'er hill or rocky riverbed" It just sounds like stone/walking on stone is involved here.

I wonder if decayform isn't what Amaram was using in the end, after his spherical transformation:

Quote

As Kaladin came in for his attack, Amaram tapped his foot, and the stone ground became liquid for a moment. Kaladin stumbled, sinking down several inches, as if the rock were crem mud. It hardened in a moment, locking Kaladin’s boots in place.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1161). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

As if the stone itself decayed, right?  Decayform.

And yet Taln is the Herald of War, so I almost think warform would be the better match for the Stonewards.  Decayform must fit somewhere, though.

I'm all about the Dustbringers bringing the storm and matching stormform.  I believe that the Dustbrings brought the dust storm we see in Dalinar's vision where at the end of the dust storm he looks down and sees the void:  my Dustbringers-are-the-real-Voidbringers theory.

I love and agree that nightform matches the Truthwatchers, especially with their prophetic description in the Listener Song of Listing!

Smokeform seems more like the spymasters (It spies; it lies; for hiding and slipping between men) and so I would match them with Lightweavers instead of Skybreakers.  The Listener song actually has two stanzas on smokeform, saying that it is of the Unmade.  I'm thinking Sja-anat!!!  And, as @hoiditthroughthegrapevine has recently said, Sja-anat seems to be the mirror-image (how perfect is that?!) of Shallan.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Dlyol]

On 07/11/2017 at 6:59 PM, KidWayne said:

That leaves the question of which order of the KR is analogous to StormForm. Well, my best guess is that StormForm is likely to match the powers of the Dustbringers/Releasers. StormForm released the Everstorm. Lightning isn't that different from fire and the essence associated with Chach is spark. However, I'm not completely sure that I'm right because we haven't seen much from Malata yet.

This all solved quite nicely by the Fused/Regals distinction we see. Stormform, like Envoyform and I'm assuming all the forms in the listener songs are Regals and so do not need to correlate with a Surge or Radiant order. We can tell this because Eshonai is still herself, if corrupted, when she is in Stormform as opposed to being replaced by a Fused. Fused are the ones we see using Surges and Voidlight in a manner that resembles Radiants but I'm not sure what we'd describe Regal powers as - although I suppose Venli's Connection thing is essentially Spiritual Adhesion so they might have the use of a slight portion of a Surge. 

 

36 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

As if the stone itself decayed, right?  Decayform.

That's Cohesion which he gets from the fact that Yelig-Nar grants all ten Surges. 

 

37 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

And yet Taln is the Herald of War, so I almost think warform would be the better match for the Stonewards.  Decayform must fit somewhere, though.

Warform is not a Form of Power so it likely doesn't relate to any order

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Apart from the thunderclasts, it is said there are nine types of the fused. This is due to them having distinct abilities.

The regals likely have access to void binding but in a more passive manner, the power concentrated in their forms.

the impression I received was than lesser spren came together to form shard plate. What if this process was mimicked with void spren, could it allow for suits of armor to allow access to the power of the regals? If not plate, then a form of fabrial.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

4 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

the impression I received was than lesser spren came together to form shard plate. What if this process was mimicked with void spren, could it allow for suits of armor to allow access to the power of the regals? If not plate, then a form of fabrial.

Wonder Spren Powers, Activate!  Shape of ... a Shardplate!

Seriously, it is a brilliant idea. That's probably why all of the windspren kept swirling around Kaladin, right?

[StrikerEZ]

First, I would like to say that Brandon had said before OB came out that we had never seen voidbinding before. So that means that stormform can't be a voidbinding form. I believe that we've only seen it so far with Renarin. I believe that he has then normal surge of Progression and the voidbinding surge of Illumination, which allows him to see the future. As for the Fused, their powers feel too fundamentally similar to that of surgebinding to be voidbinding to me. I find it much more likely they are just hacking surgebinding with voidlight. 

Also, as for Shardplate @Wit Beyond Measure, that is a very popular theory. I don't think I believe it anymore, because Shardplate is able to be regrown and no one ever mentions spren flying around when it's regrown. Also, I would think that if it were made of spren then Radiants would hear the lesser spren's screams. I think it's more likely that the lesser spren are involved in the creation of the Plate, but are not the Plate itself. How else would you explain dead Plate's ability to be regrown?

[JoyBlu]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

First, I would like to say that Brandon had said before OB came out that we had never seen voidbinding before. So that means that stormform can't be a voidbinding form. I believe that we've only seen it so far with Renarin. I believe that he has then normal surge of Progression and the voidbinding surge of Illumination, which allows him to see the future. As for the Fused, their powers feel too fundamentally similar to that of surgebinding to be voidbinding to me. I find it much more likely they are just hacking surgebinding with voidlight. 

I actually really like the idea of Renarin’s power being a combination of a normal SurgebingervProgression surge and voidbinding Illumination Surge. It fits with what I see his powers as, and how Glys is corrupted. It doesn’t necessarily connect him to the windrunners (Bridge 4) — as I was hoping he would share a “power” with the windrunners too — but that is ok. 

But if we have not seen voidbinding before then how can illumination be a voidbinding power? As we saw Renarin’s ability to see the future when he wrote on the walls. (Or is illumination not voidbinding, but a third type of surge?)

@KidWayne thank you for the visual explanation and all your photoshop work. I see what you are saying and like it. It’s like seeing pieces fall together and while it opens up more questions, it makes sense. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by JoyBlu

[dvoraen]

One comment I want to make pertains to the matter of how everyone is saying "this is a Void version of X".  While there's probably a grain of truth to that, I think if we take a step back, one thing makes matters a bit more clear.  To do that, I'll just make a direct comparison:

 

The Scadrial system has Metallic Arts.

The Roshar system has Surge Arts.

 

As Scadrial's magic systems and science are based on the metals, most Rosharan magic is based on the Surges.  Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy are powered by assorted metals.  Similarly, Surge Arts are powered by assorted "light".  This is consistent with what we've seen with both Radiants and the Fused.  We also haven't seen any major alterations with respect to Surgebinding when other Light is powering it.  Lashing from a Fused does not seem to differ from a Lashing from a Windrunner or Skybreaker.  Also, and more importantly, humanity used the Surges before ever going to the planet Roshar:

Quote

They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges.  They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging.

-- From the Eila Stele

The one part that's unclear is whether or not humans were Surgebinding while still following Odium.  The implication is yes (because the Fused can use Surgebinding, and they are Invested by Odium), but it could also be they had to "learn how" after humans gained Surgebinding from spren reverse engineering the Honorblades... which muddies the timeline a bit.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say 'Void Tension' or the like don't exist, but I think saying something like that is like calling bronze "the detection metal" when we know that isn't the whole story about it, magically speaking.  Its core state is bronze, but what it does is going to matter on which system is using it.  Right now, we've seen Surgebinding as one of those systems; directly using the Surge for a given effect.  I suspect the Unmade are still the primary practicants of Voidbinding currently*, and even then I suspect that some of their powers technically source from the Surges if not a mixture of multiples of them.  Arcanum Unbound does more than hint that there's mix-and-matching going on.  Just from what we've seen and "been told" (quotes because some of that is second hand so I consider it untrustworthy in the first place ;)), we can assign certain Surges to some of what the Unmade are reputed to do:

• Yelig-nar** -- Connection to all 10 Surges -> Spiritual Adhesion or all ten
• Ashertmarn -- Emotional fixation -> Cognitive Gravitation  ("gravitates"/"pulls" you to a specific emotion)
• Moelach -- Precognition -> Illumination
• Sja-anat -- Enlightenment -> Transformation
• Re-Shephir -- Midnight Essence -> Cohesion, Tension
• Ba-Ado-Mishram -- Adhesion, Transformation  (Connection forming, "facilitating forms of power")

 

So yeah, I think there's a bit more going on with the Roshar system.

 

* I'm not going into Renarin because he's in a very unique position.   Also, I would say it's likely that the Fused we haven't seen yet "awakened" are going to demonstrate Voidbinding, to say nothing of the role of the Unmade with respect to the listeners and possibly humans.

** Yelig-nar is weird.  It's hard to say whether he is controlling the individual who ate the gemstone (implied to be possible by Odium) and using the Surges directly through the surrogate, or if he's just simply providing power (Connecting the person to those Surges) at the cost of corroding away the imbiber's soul.

Edited December 30, 2017 by dvoraen

[StrikerEZ]

20 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

I actually really like the idea of Renarin’s power being a combination of a normal SurgebingervProgression surge and voidbinding Illumination Surge. It fits with what I see his powers as, and how Glys is corrupted. It doesn’t necessarily connect him to the windrunners (Bridge 4) — as I was hoping he would share a “power” with the windrunners too — but that is ok. 

But if we have not seen voidbinding before then how can illumination be a voidbinding power? As we saw Renarin’s ability to see the future when he wrote on the walls. (Or is illumination not voidbinding, but a third type of surge?)

@KidWayne thank you for the visual explanation and all your photoshop work. I see what you are saying and like it. It’s like seeing pieces fall together and while it opens up more questions, it makes sense. 

Oh, whoops, I guess I was unclear. I was trying to say that I think we haven't seen voidbinding except with Renarin. That probably clears up things. (EDIT: I reread my post, and I think the confusion stems from my wording. Prior to OB, Brandon had told us that we hadn't seen voidbinding at all. Now, after OB, I think the only case of voidbinding we've seen is with Renarin)

@dvoraen Hmm...I don't think the Unmade are really using voidbinding. I think it's more likely that they're just doing random Splinter-level stuff. 

I'm still hesitant to call the surges the focus of the Rosharan system's magic systems. On Scadrial the focus is metal and on Nalthis it's commands. I don't think we have any other confirmed foci. For Roshar a very popular theory has been that bonds are the focus. It would make sense, because so much of the planet's natural Investiture-based phenomena rely on bonds. Of course, with the revelation that Ashyn's magic also used the surges-albeit differently-and what I believe to be the voidbinding version of Illumination with Renarin's futuresight, I think it's more likely that focus is the surges. I still would be hesitant to claim that the Rosharan magics could be called the surge arts, however. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by StrikerEZ

[dvoraen]

@StrikerEZ The reason I don't think the bonds themselves are the foci is that Odium's usage of bonds is presumably a "corruption" effect of another system, due to the prevalence of red eyes.  This sign doesn't seem to manifest with regards to the Fused utilizing the Surges, which I find rather interesting despite the fact they've fueled some of them via Voidlight.  However, it's hard to say here, as the Fused (and Yelig-nar's hosts) have each manifested the red eyes.  Venli will likely be the settling point here, being in possession of a bond with Timbre and a Voidspren simultaneously, yet curiously not manifesting red eyes.

 

One of the reasons I say that the Unmade are Voidbinding, is partly because they're Splinters of Odium, and partly because they're doing things that the Surgebinders we've seen so far can't.  We haven't seen any indications of anyone's thoughts being easily influenced, to name one very common example.  Another would be Sja-anat's ability to Invest other Shard Splinters (spren) and align them (polarize them?) with Odium's Shard.  Third: precognition (I'm obviously not counting Renarin).  The closest to this would be Shallan drawing scenes of Ash's vandalism and possibly survivors from the Wind's Pleasure, and even then I got the impression of "present" rather than future.

[digitalbusker]

On 12/31/2017 at 3:24 AM, dvoraen said:

Venli will likely be the settling point here, being in possession of a bond with Timbre and a Voidspren simultaneously, yet curiously not manifesting red eyes.

She can if she wants to.