the_archduke

[OB] Who is getting left out of part 2?

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1 hour ago, Bernem said:

Part Two turned out well, though it's a slower, more lore-and-character focused section. (It includes some viewpoint chapters I think you'll find unexpected and interesting, though it has less action than other sections of Stormlight.)

Maybe Part 2 is told from the spren POV. How awesome would it be to see Syl, Pattern, Ivory, Stormfather, Glys, and Spark interact and commentate what's going on in Urithiru? :D

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12 minutes ago, Starla said:

Maybe Part 2 is told from the spren POV.

Ooh I really like this idea. It would be really cool from a lore/realmatics standpoint, but I also just like the personalities of Syl and Pattern.

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I am just speculating that Tertiary Character is going to get bladed at the end of part 2.

This is perhaps the big thing that Tor review keeps talking about in the middle of the book bringing up their throats...

Edited by axcellence
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Before reading this weeks chapters, I was pretty convinced that Kaladin would be disappearing from the narrative with a cliffhanger that had him prisoner to the Parshendi.  Now that it is revealed that he is back in Urithuru,  I'm now back in a place where I feel it going either direction (Shallan or Kaladin).  To help me decide, I'm trying to look for some ways that Brandon might use to make the narrative more interesting for us as readers.  As mentioned by others here, I think Shallan being absent for this section has some interesting narrative potential, like seeing her only as other people see her, and getting a sense of just how real or fake her personas seem to the various other characters.  How much fun would it be for us readers, if we watch our POV characters interact with new minor characters, and always wondering or trying to guess:  could that have been Shallan in disguise? Also, I think a first interaction scene between Kalladin and Veil would be way more interesting from Kaladin's POV, than from Shallan's.  Will he buy the illusion?  Will he see through it?  Will he kind of feel a familiarity with her, but not understand where it's coming from?  Will he find himself becoming attracted to Veil?  I dunno, just some thoughts, gotta get back to work now.

Edited by DeployParachute
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2 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Will he find himself become attracted to Veil?

Wow.. Now Shallan's multiple personas involved in multiple love triangles. 

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6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think it may be confirmed that Adolin would have POVs in the later parts of the book, but I don't remember. @maxal you know anything about that?

Nothing was ever officially confirmed when it comes to Adolin. Readers have assumed he would be the tertiary character for part 4, but as far as I am aware, nobody on Brandon's team ever confirmed it. I personally no longer expect Adolin to get a story arc: I expect he is the character who sinks into the background to give more room to the other characters. So his viewpoints are likely to be a bare minimum which will serve to highlight a given plot serving *insert a character name which isn't Adolin*. Part 4 is really short, 80k words and it has the most character, so anyone having chapters only in there doesn't get a lot.

For part 2, the arrival of Jasnah makes it more likely she is the tertiary character with viewpoints in part 2. This could coincide with Shallan not having any as their story arc would interlace too much. Seeing how it ended for Kaladin, I doubt he is skipping part 2. 

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Does anyone think there could be any significance to the colors chosen to denote the viewpoints? I seem to recall Windrunners being related to blue/sapphire and Lightweavers being related to red/garnet? Which, applied to the character viewpoint chart, would depict Kaladin as Secondary Main Character 2 and Shallan as Secondary Main Character 1 (and the main character without a viewpoint in part 2).

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12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally no longer expect Adolin to get a story arc: I expect he is the character who sinks into the background to give more room to the other characters. So his viewpoints are likely to be a bare minimum which will serve to highlight a given plot serving *insert a character name which isn't Adolin*.

I'm personally in agreement with your assessment of the treatment and writing of Adolin in Oathbringer thus far.  Previous books have created a character who is integral to the story, and whose actions have had, and presumably would continue to have impact on the plot for each of the books.  Whether Brandon intended to write him this way or not, the fact remains that Adolin wasn't written as just an ancillary character, and as such demands a well written and satisfying arc to resolve what has been presented.  

Coming from someone who doesn't hold Adolin very high on my top character list, even I can see that this is a problem if the current trend for Adolin's writing continues as is throughout OB. I hope your wrong, I want to believe you are wrong, because if you are not, then I would be forced to consider this to be the first major writing mistake for this series.

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1 minute ago, DeployParachute said:

I'm personally in agreement with your assessment of the treatment and writing of Adolin in Oathbringer thus far.  Previous books have created a character who is integral to the story, and whose actions have had, and presumably would continue to have impact on the plot for each of the books.  Whether Brandon intended to write him this way or not, the fact remains that Adolin wasn't written as just an ancillary character, and as such demands a well written and satisfying arc to resolve what has been presented.  

Coming from someone who doesn't hold Adolin very high on my top character list, even I can see that this is a problem if the current trend for Adolin's writing continues as is throughout OB. I hope your wrong, I want to believe you are wrong, because if you are not, then I would be forced to consider this to be the first major writing mistake for this series.

Yeah... Great post... I couldn't agree more with you. Adolin's story arc ended up in a massive cliffhanger in WoR. He had many internal issues to deal with: 1) everyone he is closed to is a Radiant, but not him, 2) the Blade he loves is dead and likely hates him, 3) he has killed a Highprince and this is without mentioning what adds to his plate into OB. And yet not one of these elements is broached in a satisfying manner in OB, worst the story has made as if they did not exist. He is the only, the ONLY character who suffers this fate as issues relevant to every single other character gets mentioned, explored and deepened. 

I am honestly crushed at how things turned out for Adolin: my expectations weren't very high, but I did expect his character to be central to some story arcs, to be more then this joyful sidekick which is convenient to have around. I cannot believe people read part 1 and thought: "Adolin is amazing in this book, what a great turn-over for what has been one of the most anticipated story arcs". Of course, I haven't read the rest of the book, but knowing the book structure and seeing how it started, it does not bode well. Adolin is about the only character without any narrative goals, without any story arc. Heck, even in WoK he had goals and a story arc, now in OB, a great nothing. What has his character been up to apart from interacting with Shallan and putting Shallan onto Re-Shephir's trail? Nothing. Really nothing.

In the end, I understand Brandon never planned to give Adolin a big role into the story and he probably feels what he gave him is more than sufficient. Thus, to me, the mistake was writing the character in way which made many readers expect a great deal lot more out of him then the author is willing to give. Not giving his character any defined goals nor story arc, one quarter into the book is also a mistake.

So yeah, independently of how I feel with the rest of the story, Adolin is one severe disappointment. I honestly cannot believe there are readers whom are satisfied with his character except perhaps those who didn't like him nor cared for him much.

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All I know is there should be no dip in the Dalinar narrative. He's the clear lead and the most compelling of the 3.

 

I can lose Kaladin. I don't mind reading him through the eyes of others. 

 

It's more important that we be inside Shallans head 

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2 hours ago, maxal said:

Yeah... Great post... I couldn't agree more with you. Adolin's story arc ended up in a massive cliffhanger in WoR. He had many internal issues to deal with: 1) everyone he is closed to is a Radiant, but not him, 2) the Blade he loves is dead and likely hates him, 3) he has killed a Highprince and this is without mentioning what adds to his plate into OB. And yet not one of these elements is broached in a satisfying manner in OB, worst the story has made as if they did not exist. He is the only, the ONLY character who suffers this fate as issues relevant to every single other character gets mentioned, explored and deepened. 

I am honestly crushed at how things turned out for Adolin: my expectations weren't very high, but I did expect his character to be central to some story arcs, to be more then this joyful sidekick which is convenient to have around. I cannot believe people read part 1 and thought: "Adolin is amazing in this book, what a great turn-over for what has been one of the most anticipated story arcs". Of course, I haven't read the rest of the book, but knowing the book structure and seeing how it started, it does not bode well. Adolin is about the only character without any narrative goals, without any story arc. Heck, even in WoK he had goals and a story arc, now in OB, a great nothing. What has his character been up to apart from interacting with Shallan and putting Shallan onto Re-Shephir's trail? Nothing. Really nothing.

In the end, I understand Brandon never planned to give Adolin a big role into the story and he probably feels what he gave him is more than sufficient. Thus, to me, the mistake was writing the character in way which made many readers expect a great deal lot more out of him then the author is willing to give. Not giving his character any defined goals nor story arc, one quarter into the book is also a mistake.

So yeah, independently of how I feel with the rest of the story, Adolin is one severe disappointment. I honestly cannot believe there are readers whom are satisfied with his character except perhaps those who didn't like him nor cared for him much.

um maxal. 

We just finished part 1.

There are still 4 more parts to go through. Brandon isn't going to leave the Adolin thing alone. I would bet my metacarples on it. 

As I've said before, trust the Man. He Knows better than we do. And I've never known him to just leave something like that hanging forever. If it's not addressed, please go ahead and get upset. But let's actually finish the book before we make any judgments.:rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

um maxal. 

We just finished part 1.

There are still 4 more parts to go through. Brandon isn't going to leave the Adolin thing alone. I would bet my metacarples on it. 

As I've said before, trust the Man. He Knows better than we do. And I've never known him to just leave something like that hanging forever. If it's not addressed, please go ahead and get upset. But let's actually finish the book before we make any judgments.:rolleyes:

Part 1 is actually one quarter of the book and one third of the main narrative, so it is actually a pretty decent chunk. There also are absolutely no confirmation Brandon will do anything with Adolin's character and yeah, if how he has written him so far is to be an indication, it does not bode well. It is a step down for his character from the previous books.

I wish I could be as trusting as other readers, but when it comes to Adolin, I have gone from one disappointment to the next. It makes trust very difficult. 

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

I wish I could be as trusting as other readers, but when it comes to Adolin, I have gone from one disappointment to the next. It makes trust very difficult. 

I think it's just as well that you have low expectations for Adolin, that way whatever happens to him later on in the book, it will be a pleasant surprise. 

However, I do think there was a lot of interesting character development for Adolin, it's just that the characters around him haven't really figured out what's going on with him. 

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Assuming Kaladin has the second viewpoint, I'd really like to see a subplot of Kaladin's arc where Adolin tells his bestie what he did. Who would be happier about it than Kaladin?

Might also raise some interesting questions about whether what Adolin did was right under Syl's morals, which Kaladin is already starting to question! 

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So... They were already planning to send Elhokar with Kaladin to try and activate the Oathgate in Kholinar.

If that happens in part 2, and I'm guessing they will try to do this as soon as possible, then my bet is Kaladin is the missing secondary character and Elhokar is the tertiary character with viewpoints.

Edited by Bcknight2
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Brandon has said that Part 1 has a narrow focus, Part 2 has a wide focus, Part 3 has a narrow focus and Part 4 has a wide focus. I'm not sure what the final book will have but it seems that Part 2 does some interesting things with viewpoint and probably has a lot of different viewpoints. Part 2 will also be shorter than Part 1 (possibly around half the size). Based on that, regardless of who gets what, I think the total number of Shallan and Kaladin chapters combined will be quite small (maybe 3-4).

Part 2 will also be more character focused, apparently. I guess the main topics are going to be relations internal to Urithiru, relations between Urithiru (mostly Dalinar) and other countries, and also what to do about the parshmen.

Personally, I would be happy to see more of Shallan outside of her own viewpoint. Actually, all the characters really. 

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I think that Adolin's death would give a good kick for character development of Dalinar and Shallan - moving them closer to the "dark side". I bet that Odium champion will be either Dalinar or Shallan.

All characters except Dalinar showed some growth, while he is almost the same as he was in the first book - honorable leader. I think that anger with stupid world leaders and Adolin's serious crime (almost betrayal) will seriously damage his position and faith. That's why I think Adolin will die, probably executed by his own father, that would be a powerful author's move. 

With Shallan, Adolin's death could easily kick her off mental balance as she is very unstable.

Also, Renarin is going to have his own book somewhere around 8th book (and not Adolin), and in his current state he's been way less developed than Adolin.

Edited by Carnagovich
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Kaladin will be redundant in part 2 IMO.  I don't believe he leaves Urithiru with Elhokar until part 3 because there's too much to discuss with Dalinar, Navani, and Jasnah!!! right now.  I think most of his time will be spent in council with Dalinar, which means we'll get both of them from Dalinar's POV, and I also think we'll see him in Shallan's POV as well.  I think we'll be forced to wait on Jasnah's POV until Part 3 because we'll see Shallan's reaction to her being there first.  

If tertiary character 3 is Adolin or Renarin(I think it'll be one of them), then we'll get even more Kaladin from their viewpoints which further makes his POV in part 2 redundant.  So I put my guess on Kaladin.

Edited by Shards of Mist
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22 hours ago, axcellence said:

I am just speculating that Tertiary Character is going to get bladed at the end of part 2.

This is perhaps the big thing that Tor review keeps talking about in the middle of the book bringing up their throats...

What if Brandon kills Kaladin? Now that would be unprecedented. 

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10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

What if Brandon kills Kaladin? Now that would be unprecedented. 

Well, there was Kelsier... oh wait

But we had Jasnah... but wait

Vin, Ellend though...

I am terrible at predicting BS, but look anything’s possible

Edited by axcellence
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21 hours ago, zebobes said:

I think it's just as well that you have low expectations for Adolin, that way whatever happens to him later on in the book, it will be a pleasant surprise. 

However, I do think there was a lot of interesting character development for Adolin, it's just that the characters around him haven't really figured out what's going on with him. 

I am afraid I have gone terribly cynic with the whole Adolin thing... :ph34r: Technically, there ought to be interesting character development for Adolin, practically he's just a minor side character, so he could not get any. I mean, when's the last time someone read real satisfying character development for a minor side character? I sure can't remember ever reading it in any series I have read...

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Brandon has said that Part 1 has a narrow focus, Part 2 has a wide focus, Part 3 has a narrow focus and Part 4 has a wide focus. I'm not sure what the final book will have but it seems that Part 2 does some interesting things with viewpoint and probably has a lot of different viewpoints. Part 2 will also be shorter than Part 1 (possibly around half the size). Based on that, regardless of who gets what, I think the total number of Shallan and Kaladin chapters combined will be quite small (maybe 3-4).

Part 2 will also be more character focused, apparently. I guess the main topics are going to be relations internal to Urithiru, relations between Urithiru (mostly Dalinar) and other countries, and also what to do about the parshmen.

Personally, I would be happy to see more of Shallan outside of her own viewpoint. Actually, all the characters really. 

Last week, I thought Kaladin would skip part 2 because I felt this story arc was going in circle and needed some off time to take its pace. This week, after seeing where both Kaladin and Shallan are, I changed my mind. I find having Kaladin's viewpoints would now be very interesting because his views on Dalinar's politics, Amaram being a Highprince, Sadeas being murdered would really be interesting to read not to forget it would also give Bridge 4 a bit more focus which many readers would love. In Shallan's case, seeing how much of a mayhem her inner thoughts are, I now feel take a step back would be best for her character. The arrival of Jasnah opens the door wide to give her the viewpoints and thus allow a much needed third person's perspective on Shallan. Jasnah would certainly not cuddle Shallan and this is much needed: Shallan needs a little less awe, a great deal less blankets and bit more affirmation which I believe inter-actions with Jasnah could provide.

Giving Jasnah's viewpoints in part 2 would also allow us to have her views on the several key points. We never got to read her interactions with her family. I am really curious to read how it will go down: what kind of relationship does she really have with Navani, Elhokar, Dalinar, Renarin and Adolin? I am dying to read her thoughts on the Adolin/Shallan courtship: no doubt in my mind she intended to be the driving agent, the chaperone and the voice of reason. No doubt she meant for Shallan to present herself as a respectable, poised young woman, instead she asked Adolin how he defecated in battle... Also, ever since Adolin told us Jasnah actually had a hand into his upbringing, I want to read their interactions. So yeah, Jasnah's viewpoints for part 2 seems like a very good timing.

I recall Brandon saying part 2 was strong in characterization, so I am curious about it. I wonder which character will get the characterization (and no I am not hoping it will be Adolin, I am convinced it isn't him).

9 hours ago, Carnagovich said:

I think that Adolin's death would give a good kick for character development of Dalinar and Shallan - moving them closer to the "dark side". I bet that Odium champion will be either Dalinar or Shallan.

All characters except Dalinar showed some growth, while he is almost the same as he was in the first book - honorable leader. I think that anger with stupid world leaders and Adolin's serious crime (almost betrayal) will seriously damage his position and faith. That's why I think Adolin will die, probably executed by his own father, that would be a powerful author's move. 

With Shallan, Adolin's death could easily kick her off mental balance as she is very unstable.

Also, Renarin is going to have his own book somewhere around 8th book (and not Adolin), and in his current state he's been way less developed than Adolin.

I personally think Adolin's death would be a waste of a character whom could have been so much more into the narrative. I also think having Dalinar kill Adolin would destroy the entire sympathy capital his character has.

8 hours ago, Shards of Mist said:

Kaladin will be redundant in part 2 IMO.  I don't believe he leaves Urithiru with Elhokar until part 3 because there's too much to discuss with Dalinar, Navani, and Jasnah!!! right now.  I think most of his time will be spent in council with Dalinar, which means we'll get both of them from Dalinar's POV, and I also think we'll see him in Shallan's POV as well.  I think we'll be forced to wait on Jasnah's POV until Part 3 because we'll see Shallan's reaction to her being there first.  

If tertiary character 3 is Adolin or Renarin(I think it'll be one of them), then we'll get even more Kaladin from their viewpoints which further makes his POV in part 2 redundant.  So I put my guess on Kaladin.

But Kaladin's viewpoints will give us his insight on the overall story: I don't see how they would be redundant. Redundant with whom?

Renarin is not a tertiary character within OB.

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Couple things. . 

No one has mentioned a possible POV from Navani or even Elhokar as tertiary 3 . . (While the reasons to suspect Jasnahs POV are near the end of the novel, these two just had an assumed dead family member show up totally unexpectedly). I'm leaning toward Navani. 

Also, Jasnah,  as a Kholin, will fall under bridge 4 guardianship, so hopefully we can see some of our favorite bridgemen on screen that way.

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10 minutes ago, Solant said:

Couple things. . 

No one has mentioned a possible POV from Navani or even Elhokar as tertiary 3 . . (While the reasons to suspect Jasnahs POV are near the end of the novel, these two just had an assumed dead family member show up totally unexpectedly). I'm leaning toward Navani. 

Also, Jasnah,  as a Kholin, will fall under bridge 4 guardianship, so hopefully we can see some of our favorite bridgemen on screen that way.

We know Elhokar is not a tertiary character. Navani's status is unknown, but she never got more than one or two viewpoints per book. I thus do not expect Navani to get more than that. She doesn't seem a character whom needs a story: she mostly around to give a few insights. 

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

Renarin is not a tertiary character within OB.

 

49 minutes ago, maxal said:

We know Elhokar is not a tertiary character.

...

I thus do not expect Navani to get more than that. She doesn't seem a character whom needs a story: she mostly around to give a few insights. 

Do you have a source on Renarin and Elhokar not being tertiary characters? I thought they were still possibilities?

Also, I thought there's a WoB which said that Navani would have a bigger role to play in coming events? It's late though, so I'll try to dig it up tomorrow.

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18 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Do you have a source on Renarin and Elhokar not being tertiary characters? I thought they were still possibilities?

Don't know anything about Elhokar, but Renarin is one of the flashback characters in the back has lf. 

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