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Theory: Surgebinding and Voidbinding


Duskshard

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OK, tell me if this sounds crazy.

 

There are two kinds of spren, nature and emotion. or (natural forces and concepts) Forces of nature spren are of Cultivation? and emotion/concepts are of Honor?

 

Each Herald get's their abilities from a bond to Honor and each represents an ideal. (a concept) Each ideal granted the Herald two Surges divided up between spiritual and cognitive surges. Four got access to two spiritual surges, Four got access to two cognitive surges, and two got access to one of each.  

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON
First Question: Yes, ten is a number of mythological import in the world. The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds—who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection—but there's a step between them.)

 

 

Spren were attracted to each ideal and because each ideal was a bond to Honor the spren "fed" of that bond and achieved sentience by becoming Splinters.

 

 

QUESTION
Are Honorspren Splinters, or do they hold Splinters?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Honorspren would be termed Splinters.

 

 

These spren, that now each represented an ideal, started to bond with humans giving them surgebinding abilities like the Heralds whose ideal/Order they represent. (Surprising the Almighty)

 

This would suggest that the power of Surgebinding comes from Honor.

 

So what about Cultivation?

 

Well I think her magic system is Voidbinding. (Binding spren that represent natural forces)

 

I don't think that the spren involved in Voidbinding are Splinters, but I suppose they could be, but for now I'm going to assume they're not.

 

So while Surgebinding involves sentient spren who make the decision to bond to a human who represents their ideal. I think Voidbinding works by binding a non-sentient spren that represents a force of nature to them (like stormspren) giving them abilities.

 

===============================

 

OR

 

The ideals the Herald swore bound them to both Honor and Cultivation (and the Herald's surge abilities, depending upon the Herald, are either of Honor, Cultivation or a mix of both) giving the spren that were attracted to that ideal access to the power of both Shards, becoming Splinters that way. Which would mean that Voidbinding is something else entirely.

 

 
BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

  

===============================

 

This is just something that I started to think about while reading Brandon Q&A's and I thought I share it to see what you guys think. So tell me what you think, feel free to added to it or tear it apart. 

Edited by Duskshard
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OK, tell me if this sounds crazy.

 

There are two kinds of spren, nature and emotion. or (natural forces and concepts) Forces of nature spren are of Cultivation? and emotion/concepts are of Honor?

 

I'd predict there being three. I think Odium is responsible for sensationspren (painspren, exhaustionspren), though I can't for the life of me justify it reasonably. He's responsible for voidspren, anyways.

 

It might be that spren can be made of any Shard.

Edited by Moogle
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@Duskshard: I agree that one of those is probably close to the truth, and I'll go with the second one. As I said in Shardlet's Nightwatcher thread, I now think that the Intents of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium are represented in all the magic systems on Roshar. It's just a matter of which Shard owns which system. So, Surgebinding is Honor's system because it is based on oaths and ideals, but it also has bits of Cultivation in it (e.g. the Growth Surge, and the bondspren that are fully or partially of Cultivation), and most likely Odium as well.

 

I think Cultivation's own system is still unnamed (if it will ever have a name). I think it is a purely naturalistic system, something that doesn't require consciousness or sentience. Parts of it can be found in how some animals have symbiotic relationships with spren, and how spren are attracted to certain gemstones (fabrials). Again, I think Honor and Odium's Intents also manifest in that system. Perhaps non-sentient emotionspren are Honor's contribution, while non-sentient voidspren are Odium's contribution.

 

As for Voidbinding, I believe it is Odium's system. Moogle is correct in a sense that Cultivation does have something to do with it (e.g. the Old Magic), and I think Honor somehow does, too. But Odium is probably the one responsible for most of the Voids.

 

I guess this is a good place to link to my unfinished Voidbinding theory. I placed it in my Coppermind user page since I didn't want to create a forum thread for an unfinished theory, but perhaps you'd be interested in seeing its development.

 

@Moogle: Jasnah does list three categories of (I'm assuming non-sentient) spren: naturespren, emotionspren, and voidspren. I think voidspren are things like deathspren or even rotspren, but I'm not sure.

Edited by skaa
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I'm pretty sure there's a quote sitting around somewhere where Brandon basically confirmed that all spren are on a sliding scale from Honor to Cultivation. As for the magic systems' Shards, I think http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6152-surgebinding-mistborn-more-speculations-about-hoid/page-2 (towards the bottom) is close to accurate.

Edited by DoctorWh0m
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I'm pretty sure there's a quote sitting around somewhere where Brandon basically confirmed that all spren are on a sliding scale from Honor to Cultivation.

 

Only for Surgebinding spren.

 

Question

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

(source)

 

You could hardly have voidspren if Odium wasn't involved for at least some spren, I think.

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Now that I've had time to sleep on it and think it through a bit more I think that option 2 is more likely given that Wyndle thinks of the Nightwather as his mother, and the Nightwater most agree is Cultivation. Which most likely means that Wyndle is a Splinter of Cultivation.

 

So this is what I'm leaning towards now.

 

Surgebinding

  • Honor and Cultivation join forces
  • They select 10 people to be their Heralds
  • They bind each to them,to them with an ideal
  • Some are bound just to Honor, some just to Cultivation and some to both
  • Spren are attracted to each ideal
  • The spren become Splinters gaining sentience, and now each represent an ideal
  • The spren start bonding with human trying to recreate that what the Almighty did with the Heralds
  • We get Surgebinders and later KR for those who learn the ideals

 

Voidbinding

  • Odium selects 10 people
  • These 10 come to be known as the ten fools
  • Each of the ten are bound to odium by an ideal
  • Spren are attracted to the ideals
  • The spren "feed" of the ideal and become Splinters (Odiumspren? Voidspren?)
  • The spren start to bind or are bound to creatures of the void
  • This creates Voidbinders

 

Speculation:

 

Maybe Cultivation acts as a sort of balance between Honor and Odium and as part of the Oathpact had to add part of her power to both magics.

 

Perhaps as part of the Oathpact there need to be some kind of balance?

 

Maybe Surgebinding granted by spren couldn't re-enter the world without Voidbinding also returning.

 

Perhaps this is why the KR betrayed the spren, to banish Voidbinders from the world?

 

And maybe that's the reason why Darkness now hunts them, to stop the return of Voidbinders? 

Edited by Duskshard
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So what about Cultivation?

 

Well I think her magic system is Voidbinding. (Binding spren that represent natural forces)

 

I don't think that the spren involved in Voidbinding are Splinters, but I suppose they could be, but for now I'm going to assume they're not.

 

So while Surgebinding involves sentient spren who make the decision to bond to a human who represents their ideal. I think Voidbinding works by binding a non-sentient spren that represents a force of nature to them (like stormspren) giving them abilities.

 

This is something I've just started thinking about recently, and I kind of agree that Voidbinding is Cultivation, but not directly.  Long post coming up, and I'm still reading WOBs and Coppermind after being here a month, so I may be missing something that makes all this void.

 

First, I'm going to say something that has no real proof, but I don't think Odium directly has created magic on Roshar.  I'm kind of basing this on Scadrial, three magic systems being formed out of two Shards.  Bear with me, because I know it's easy to dismiss.  Second, when it comes to 10 or 30 magics on Roshar, I'm more interested in why there can be said to be 10; I'm assuming different spins on the same 10 foci have arisen from Honor, Cultivation, and their mixture.

 

So the first magic system I'll just say is Surgebinding, and it ultimately comes from Honor.  Honorblades, which are entirely of Honor, grant access to the Surges.  However, as I said in my first post ever here, I believe that the story of Parasaphri and Naphris is the story of what Cultivation did after the death of Honor.  After Honor died, Cultivation took his Splinters and mixed them with spren to create the 10 children/new nation of sentient spren and ultimately KR.  They were linked to the "seedstones" associated with the Heralds, aka the gemstones linked to the Essences, and because of the Honor mixture, they grant these same Surgebinding abilities-- I'm going to say that none is 100% Honor or Cultivation, that while half of them may be more ideational in makeup, love or wisdom or truth or honor, and half may be more natural like plants and stone and air, they all have some of each.  To go a step further, I'll posit that all the Surges are just an extension of Honor's existing magic system, and what they get from Cultivation is the ability to bond with KR in the first place.

 

Expanding on that, I believe Cultivation has the second magic system, the Old Magic.  I'm assuming the Old Magic is her system because we know the Nightwatcher is related to it and I'm assuming the Nightwatcher is Cultivation or a Splinter of her, and I'm saying the Old Magic is one of the big 3 systems because there's something supernatural up with it. Essentially, I think that Old Magic is symbiosis with spren.  I believe Cultivation created the spren as something she added to the natural world to aid living things in the harsh Rosharian environment (originally being nature spren and ultimately growing to include emotion spren from their interaction with sentient beings).  I'm assuming this is a neutral form of Investiture, the spren get solid Cognitive forms (per Lift's gardener spren, gardens created from human minds) while the other side gets the obvious side benefits.  Gemhearts grow.  Greatshells get bigger, the Parshendi get their Forms.  And coming around to Voidbinding, in those Forms are 10 which are dark reflection of the Surges (though maybe each only reflects one Surge instead of two, or they have two which are combined differently to create slightly different effects. I'm not sure, but if Stormform can summon Highstorms, it's obviously different somehow).

 

So, Voidbinding.  Returning to Odium and my initial thoughts on him.  He's been on Roshar, the same way he's been on Sel, but that's not really his planet, Braize is.  And he's pretty selfish; he doesn't like to diminish his power.  Therefore, I don't think that he's actually Invested anything of himself on Roshar to create a magic system, at least not directly the way ideational/natural powers with ties to Roshar like Honor and Cultivation did. What we do know of Odium is that he can mess with other Shards without destroying himself.  And we know that spren can be corrupted to create the 10 deaths (or at least thunderclasts).  So I'm assuming that while Odium doesn't have his own magic system, he does have a presence as an outside power corrupting the existing magic systems.  He corrupted Cultivation's system, and he Splintered Tanavast and then corrupted his Heralds (working off of  someone's theory I saw somewhere about Darkness being corrupted justice and his nervous friend at the party being corrupted resolution).  In sum, Cultivation == Old Magic == spren symbiosis, but in an instance with Odium? Corrupted spren, which means Voidbringers.  Basically, I agree with your point Duskshard, and think Voidbinding is Cultivation's system, but I think it's a version of her real system, the Old Magic, which has been corrupted by Odium.

 

I've been trying to find some quote saying that Voidbinding is a completely separate system to disprove this, and there may be one, but searching on Voidbinding brings up a lot of results.  I found someone in a Q&A saying they assumed the second system was Voidbinding, then asking what the third was, and Brandon replied the third had to do with fabrials.  But that seems like a really good way to mess with someone by skipping over their assumptions (not that Brandon would ever do that :D ).  This has put some rough ideas about the fabrial system into my head, too, but I feel like I'm missing so much info (I didn't even realize spren were needed to create fabrials before coming here-- this board rocks!) that I haven't managed to put them into anything coherent yet (at least as coherent as I ever get).  So far it's mainly the thought that this should be the real Honor-Cultivation combined magic, based on the Old Magic/spren symbiosis growing gemhearts while Honor's Highstorms Invest the gems to be used later, which once again are mixed with spren to create an effect.

Edited by TomR
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Surgebinding

  • The spren become Splinters gaining sentience, and now each represent an ideal

 

Voidbinding

  • The spren "feed" of the ideal and become Splinters (Odiumspren? Voidspren?)

 

We have no evidence that something can "become" a splinter. The only other splinters we have seen are the Aons (at the heart of Seons) and the Divine Breath that the Returned hold. While we know nothing of the origins or creation of the Seons, we do know that the Divine Breath is given by Endowment. 

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However, as I said in my first post ever here, I believe that the story of Parasaphri and Naphris is the story of what Cultivation did after the death of Honor.  After Honor died, Cultivation took his Splinters and mixed them with spren to create the 10 children/new nation of sentient spren and ultimately KR.  They were linked to the "seedstones" associated with the Heralds, aka the gemstones linked to the Essences, and because of the Honor mixture, they grant these same Surgebinding abilities-- I'm going to say that none is 100% Honor or Cultivation, that while half of them may be more ideational in makeup, love or wisdom or truth or honor, and half may be more natural like plants and stone and air, they all have some of each.  To go a step further, I'll posit that all the Surges are just an extension of Honor's existing magic system, and what they get from Cultivation is the ability to bond with KR in the first place.

 

You weren't kidding with the long post. You covered a lot but the biggest problem I have is with this bit. Honour didn't get splintered until after the KR were formed (probably at least a few millenia). So the whole concept of taking the Splinters of Honour and creating the 10 children/nations who then became the 10 orders of the KR goes out the window. 

 

Edit: I do however agree with Odium corrupting spren. Not sure if that is the full extent of Odium's influence on Roshar though.

 

 

 

“A spren that doesn’t act like it should,” the man said. “Keep your eyes open. Once Sja-anat touches a spren, it acts strange. Call attention to anything you see.”

 

 

 

“It’s here, then,” the knight said. “Sja-anat’s spy. Caeb, run to the checkpoint. The rest of you, keep watching. It won’t be able to go far without a carrier.” She yanked something off her belt, a small pouch.

 

These two quotes from the WoR vision kind of support that theory.

Edited by xbauks
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You weren't kidding with the long post. You covered a lot but the biggest problem I have is with this bit. Honour didn't get splintered until after the KR were formed (probably at least a few millenia). So the whole concept of taking the Splinters of Honour and creating the 10 children/nations who then became the 10 orders of the KR goes out the window. 

 

Presumably because Dalinar's visions from Honor cover up to the Recreance?  I actually disagree because of WOB saying Honorspren are Splinters.

 

WOB: 

 

Q: Are Honorspren Splinters, or do they hold Splinters?

A: Honorspren would be termed Splinters.

 

 

If Honorspren are Splinters, they post-date the Splintering of Honor.  If they give an order of KR their abilities, they predate the KR.  Furthermore, Nohadon mentions Honorspren in WOK, and that's prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant.

 

Of course one of those conditions could be flawed.  If not, I'm not sure how to explain the discrepancy for the timing of the visions.  Best guess is that we've got another Honor Splinter managing the visions.  Obviously something's left since the visions are around at all; besides that, we've got the big face in the sky when Kaladin is strung up.

Edited by TomR
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Presumably because Dalinar's visions from Honor cover up to the Recreance?  I actually disagree because of WOB saying Honorspren are Splinters.

 

WOB: 

 

 

If Honorspren are Splinters, they post-date the Splintering of Honor.  If they give an order of KR their abilities, they predate the KR.  Furthermore, Nohadon mentions Honorspren in WOK, and that's prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant.

 

Of course one of those conditions could be flawed.  If not, I'm not sure how to explain the discrepancy for the timing of the visions.  Best guess is that we've got another Honor Splinter managing the visions.  Obviously something's left since the visions are around at all; besides that, we've got the big face in the sky when Kaladin is strung up.

 

Creation of Splinters doesn't require the Shard to be splintered. As Porridge mentioned, the Divine Breath that the returned hold are Splinters of Endowment. Endowment is not Splintered. 

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Okay, so saying yet another Splinter would've had to be around to create and manage the visions is out then.  Man, thought I was onto something! :)  There goes all the support for my Urithiru being in the mountains of Makabaki theory, too.  Oh, well.  Going back to this:

 

Edit: I do however agree with Odium corrupting spren. Not sure if that is the full extent of Odium's influence on Roshar though.

 

I didn't actually mean to say that, and I agree with you that Odium has further influence.  The theory was only meant to describe magic influence, to say that since Odium's not native to Roshar, there's a lack of an Odium-specific magic type.  And I didn't even mean to say that Odium has only corrupted spren magic since I suspect the Unmade reflect the Heralds. Essentially, I'm speculating that Odium's Roshar magic variant(s) are a corruption of Honor's, Cultivation's, and Honor/Cultivation's.

 

1. Honor - Surgebinding/Heralds/Honorblades. Corrupted by Odium by messing with the Heralds' Divine Attributes. Probably also corrupted the system to create the Unmade (Ten Fools?), and maybe to create the third type of Shardblade if Voidblade theories I've seen are correct.

2. Cultivation - Old Magic. I'm assuming it revolves around spren bonds*, or maybe it's the forms they create when they bond, as seen in creatures like greatshells and Parshendi. Corrupted by Odium to turn Parshendi into Voidbringers/Voidbinders.

3. Honor/Cultivation - Whatever the fabrial magic is. Corrupted by Odium?

 

But I don't think magic's the only way Odium influences Roshar.  Odium being behind the Thrill is another theory I like, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's done a lot more.  

 

*We know the Nightwatcher is Old Magic, and Nightwatcher as an example of a spren bond is admittedly a weakness here.  My only link is a Cognitive "seed" with the spren, how they gradually "grow" in intellect and power as they feed off the ideas/Words of their Radiant, vs. messing with people's minds (losing memories, changing senses to lose feeling in hands or see the world upside down) as Nightwatcher's price for her blessing.  And again admittedly, that's a big jump (with leading language even).  Really, the whole theory's tenuous.  ...Is WOR out yet?

Edited by TomR
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  • 1 month later...

Okay, so saying yet another Splinter would've had to be around to create and manage the visions is out then.  Man, thought I was onto something! :)  There goes all the support for my Urithiru being in the mountains of Makabaki theory, too.  Oh, well.  Going back to this:

 

 

I didn't actually mean to say that, and I agree with you that Odium has further influence.  The theory was only meant to describe magic influence, to say that since Odium's not native to Roshar, there's a lack of an Odium-specific magic type.  And I didn't even mean to say that Odium has only corrupted spren magic since I suspect the Unmade reflect the Heralds. Essentially, I'm speculating that Odium's Roshar magic variant(s) are a corruption of Honor's, Cultivation's, and Honor/Cultivation's.

 

1. Honor - Surgebinding/Heralds/Honorblades. Corrupted by Odium by messing with the Heralds' Divine Attributes. Probably also corrupted the system to create the Unmade (Ten Fools?), and maybe to create the third type of Shardblade if Voidblade theories I've seen are correct.

2. Cultivation - Old Magic. I'm assuming it revolves around spren bonds*, or maybe it's the forms they create when they bond, as seen in creatures like greatshells and Parshendi. Corrupted by Odium to turn Parshendi into Voidbringers/Voidbinders.

3. Honor/Cultivation - Whatever the fabrial magic is. Corrupted by Odium?

 

But I don't think magic's the only way Odium influences Roshar.  Odium being behind the Thrill is another theory I like, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's done a lot more.  

 

*We know the Nightwatcher is Old Magic, and Nightwatcher as an example of a spren bond is admittedly a weakness here.  My only link is a Cognitive "seed" with the spren, how they gradually "grow" in intellect and power as they feed off the ideas/Words of their Radiant, vs. messing with people's minds (losing memories, changing senses to lose feeling in hands or see the world upside down) as Nightwatcher's price for her blessing.  And again admittedly, that's a big jump (with leading language even).  Really, the whole theory's tenuous.  ...Is WOR out yet?

 

Well, since KR bondspren are from Honor, Cultivation, and a variety of mixtures of Honor and Cultivation, surgebinding will be from Cultivation as well as Honor.

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Well, since KR bondspren are from Honor, Cultivation, and a variety of mixtures of Honor and Cultivation, surgebinding will be from Cultivation as well as Honor.

The assumption would be that all spren are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, with even the most Cultivationy still having some Honor and the most Honory still having some Cultivation, so Surgebinding would comes from this Honor side. That's still basically my opinion.

 

Given: Honorblades give access to the full range of Surgebinding.

Assumption: Honorblades are purely of Honor.

Conclusion: Cultivation is not needed to access the Surges. Surgebinding is Honor's.

 

So that at least is my chain of logic, even though I can see ways people may disagree. Regardless, the overall theory has a few more issues now that I've read WOR and a few of the more recent signing reports. I'm sure I'll be rethinking it many times until we get all the answers.

Edited by TomR
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Given: Honorblades give access to the full range of Surgebinding.

Assumption: Honorblades are purely of Honor.

Conclusion: Cultivation is not needed to access the Surges. Surgebinding is Honor's.

 

Any Shard can power any system, at varying levels of efficiency. Surgebinding, if it's Honor+Cultivation, would mean that either Shard would not be able to fuel it with perfect efficiency. We find out that Honorblades make you burn through Stormlight faster than a Radiant. I think this is very good evidence.

 

As well, Shards control the means to how you access magic. To use Hemalurgy, you have to Ruin souls. To use Surgebinding, you have to cultivate honor. More evidence.

 

 

On Voidbinding: We find out that Honor's number is ten. It's not Cultivations. I'm calling Voidbinding as Honor + Cultivation + Odium, which makes sense, because there are ten levels of Voidbinding. That means our third system with 'more esoteric' abilities is probably Odium + Cultivation. I'm going to be eager to see how it works.

Edited by Moogle
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