Xaladin

[OB] Nine is Odium's number

23 posts in this topic

Since so many people seem intent on matching the Unmade with Heralds or Surges or whatever, I thought I would bring this forward. I wish I could remember or find the WOB I think supports this, but each Shard has a number that is special to it, or something. For Preservation, it's 16. For Honor it's 10.

And for Odium, it's 9. This is why there are 9 Unmade, and we'll see more 9 showing up as we learn more about Odium.

EDIT: And why not add a crackpot theory while I'm at it? Adonalsium split into 16 numbered Shards. One through Sixteen. Another guess is that Autonomy is number One also.

Edited by Xaladin
Additional crackpot theory to seal the deal
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The WoB you are recalling says that only some Shards have numbers associated with them iirc.

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20 minutes ago, Xaladin said:

 

EDIT: And why not add a crackpot theory while I'm at it? Adonalsium split into 16 numbered Shards. One through Sixteen. Another guess is that Autonomy is number One also.

Ambition would never stand for that. :)

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Upvoted for the crackpot theory - I can def see the shards being numbered 1-16

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There was a theory about this somewhere, can't remember which forum. Also, there it was Endowment added as 5. 

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I'll just leave this here... 

Quote

The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

 

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On 11/6/2017 at 11:02 AM, Xaladin said:

For Preservation, it's 16

Preservation's number is the same as Adonalsium's because change is bad.

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“Oh, for Damnation’s sake, Shallan. Can I come in now? And just so we’re clear, I’m a man and your betrothed, my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine, I have a birthmark on the back of my left thigh, and I had crab curry for breakfast. Anything else you need to know?”

This still bothers me. I don't believe in this sort of coincidence in Brandon's books. He could have given him any other sign or leave it altogether if he wasn't sure what to do with it. 

Edited by Ailvara
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1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

I don't believe in this sort of coincidence in Brandon's books.

I don't believe in them either. I do however believe in false trails. This one smells kind of like that to me.

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16 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

This still bothers me. I don't believe in this sort of coincidence in Brandon's books. He could give him any other sign or leave it altogether if he wasn't sure what to do with it. 

People read WAY too much into it then they need to. Being born within the ninth month of the year bear so significance whatsoever. Adolin being born under the sign of nine means nothing. IMHO, readers are trying WAY too hard to find foreshadowing. The Adolin quote just allows us to place when his birthday is, approximately, and put a better age on him. Thus, if the sign of nine matches the ninth month of the years, as I suspect it does, then Adolin turned 23 sometimes in WoK or early WoR. It means he's a bit younger than most readers made him out to be. It also means his birthday is close to Kaladin's whom turned 20 in WoK. It is a nice to have clue, but it certainly does not mean anything for his future. All those talks of OMG Adolin is born under the sign of nine, nine is Odium's number, OMG he will become his Champion: this is just putting WAY too much meaning in something which isn't meant to mean much.

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2 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I don't believe in them either. I do however believe in false trails. This one smells kind of like that to me.

Perhaps... But I think false trails are usually those more obvious ones, and tiny hints are better for actual foreshadowing. What I mean is, that this sort of red herring is quite useless. Half of the readers won't even notice it and it doesn't build up for a good plot twist, it'd be pure trolling in my opinion. I would sooner see a false trail in a character that is visibly going evil and then turn his arc on its head, it simply works better as a surprise.

So the only way I see this working as a false trail, is if we get more clear evidence for Adolin turning to Odium, and then it gets resolved with him staying good. This would be very much like Dalinar's storyline, and it worked GREAT.  But I don't think we'll see it again in the same form...

However, a twisted mirroring version? Just think of it, that would actually be quite awesome. They are already set up as opposites. Adolin is sweet and good, young Dalinar was a monster. Dalinar almost fell to guilt, Adolin doesn't feel one for the murder at all. I'd really like the structure where they would both go the same path in opposite directions. 

Disclaimer: I like Adolin. I'm not suggesting he'll turn evil, because I don't like him. I'm suggesting it, because I genuinely think this would make a fascinating story.

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24 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

This still bothers me. I don't believe in this sort of coincidence in Brandon's books. He could give him any other sign or leave it altogether if he wasn't sure what to do with it. 

This has always bothered me! Every time I start thinking about how great Adolin and his arc is I think, “ but he’s born under the sign of nine! Can I trust you?” And what if somewhere along the way Shallan breaks Adolin by betraying him with Kaladin? To be clear, I don’t want this to happen to our  sweet Adolin...Im just saying it perks my ears up;) 

Edited by NotBurtReynolds
Clarity
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Odium's champion has nine shadows. I assume that is the unmade?

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This theory lacks any real evidence IMO.

A: Voidbinding is split into ten, not nine, so right off the bat there is no real strong connection between Odium and the number nine; he plays with the one number just as much as the other.

B: Cultivation also greatly contributed to surgebinding (she has a strong motive to contribute to the fight against odium, we have good evidence that a hefty chunk of surgebinding and radiant spren are connected to her), arguably equally as much as Honour, so to argue that Honour's titular number is ten based on the heralds + radiant orders feels pretty weak imo. It's probably a lot more likely that ten is Roshar's number.

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53 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

A: Voidbinding is split into ten, not nine, so right off the bat there is no real strong connection between Odium and the number nine; he plays with the one number just as much as the other.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33-arcanum-unbounded-san-francisco-signing/#e2745

Quote

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

He plays with ten because the magic system predates his arrival. There are ten surges and he has no control over that. The 9-centric nature of Braize reflects the fact that he invested Braize, while he hasn't up to now invested the rest of the system. There are 9 unmade, because those are his own creation.

50 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

B: Cultivation also greatly contributed to surgebinding (she has a strong motive to contribute to the fight against odium, we have good evidence that a hefty chunk of surgebinding and radiant spren are connected to her), arguably equally as much as Honour, so to argue that Honour's titular number is ten based on the heralds + radiant orders feels pretty weak imo. It's probably a lot more likely that ten is Roshar's number.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/47-firefight-portland-signing/#e678

Quote

The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175/#e8381

Quote
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

So, here we have a couple of the many WoB's on numbers and shards. Note that some shards do have numbers associated with them, but most don't. This would make sense if Honor is one of the ones that do, and Cultivation is one that doesn't. The number 10 is important to Roshar, but there's a chicken/egg scenario in there. Was it important before Honor arrived? Did Honor choose it because of the connection to ten? The number can be important to both the system and the shard without mutual exclusivity. The second one here is also particularly important, no ambiguity in the response at all, a flat yes with Honor being 10 and Odium being 9 a part of that question.

Now I won't pretend that it isn't possible that mistakes were made somewhere, but it seems there is pretty strong evidence for the association of 9 with Odium and 10 with Honor.

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35 minutes ago, aemetha said:

So, here we have a couple of the many WoB's on numbers and shards. Note that some shards do have numbers associated with them, but most don't. This would make sense if Honor is one of the ones that do, and Cultivation is one that doesn't. The number 10 is important to Roshar, but there's a chicken/egg scenario in there. Was it important before Honor arrived? Did Honor choose it because of the connection to ten? The number can be important to both the system and the shard without mutual exclusivity. The second one here is also particularly important, no ambiguity in the response at all, a flat yes with Honor being 10 and Odium being 9 a part of that question.

Now I won't pretend that it isn't possible that mistakes were made somewhere, but it seems there is pretty strong evidence for the association of 9 with Odium and 10 with Honor.

Ok yes this is a very good analysis.

I like the idea that it's like cymatics: these Shards and magic systems are associated with and shaped by these numbers because of the cosmic objects that they've invested in:

Surgebinding was created on Roshar: it is associated with and shaped around the number ten.

Honour and Cultivation dug their heals into Roshar: they are associated with and shaped around the number ten.

Voidbinding was invented on Roshar and primarily exists on Roshar (probably): it is associated and shaped around the number ten.

The unmade where made on Braize (probably): they are associated with and shaped around the number nine.

Odium exists mostly on Braize: he is associated with and shaped around the number nine.

Edited by Ymawgat
changed bolds to make my meaning clearer
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It will not take a careful reader to ascertain I have listed only eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy. Hessi's mythica page 266

From near the end of part 4. So Nine is a number associated with Odium, whether because of Braize or of Odium itself/himself I do not know; but Nine is definitely an important number here.

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I'm glad I found this feed, because I was starting to lean more towards planet-number relationships rather than shard-number relationships. Perhaps Scadrial itself has a relationship with the number 16 rather than Preservation?

On a similar note, would Yolen then be considered ONE or ZERO?

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On 12/16/2017 at 7:46 PM, aemetha said:

 

Quote

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

 

He plays with ten because the magic system predates his arrival. There are ten surges and he has no control over that. The 9-centric nature of Braize reflects the fact that he invested Braize, while he hasn't up to now invested the rest of the system. There are 9 unmade, because those are his own creation.

So, here we have a couple of the many WoB's on numbers and shards. Note that some shards do have numbers associated with them, but most don't. This would make sense if Honor is one of the ones that do, and Cultivation is one that doesn't. The number 10 is important to Roshar, but there's a chicken/egg scenario in there. Was it important before Honor arrived? Did Honor choose it because of the connection to ten? The number can be important to both the system and the shard without mutual exclusivity. The second one here is also particularly important, no ambiguity in the response at all, a flat yes with Honor being 10 and Odium being 9 a part of that question.

Now I won't pretend that it isn't possible that mistakes were made somewhere, but it seems there is pretty strong evidence for the association of 9 with Odium and 10 with Honor.

Yeah, the big WoB you quoted seems to puncture the numbered Shards idea. Honor is using 10 because of the Rosharan system. I think we can assume Braize would be 10 as well if not for Odium's presence. Either he did something specific on Braize or because he is the Void his number is the system # 10 - 1 = 9

The 10 gas giants created by Adonalsium tip it in favor of it being a system thing and not an Honor specific thing. It's possible Honor loves 10 and that's why he wanted to go to Roshar.

Unless there were 13 gas giants and Honor turned 3 into the moons (somehow) to get to 10 :wacko: . That would mean there were 16 planets total in the system originally :blink:

The moons are parked in an unstable orbit, which is unnatural it's like someone did it intentionally who didn't quite know what they were doing. A recently ascended Tanavast perhaps?

 

Quote

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
#2Feb. 19, 2017

Questioner

Roshar has three moons that orbit it, and I notice that these orbits somewhat collide. I was wondering if the moons have anything to do with...

Brandon Sanderson

The moons are a little bit of a hint, but it’s not about what you’re thinking. They are not in a stable orbit on astronomical terms. They’ll last tens of thousands of years before they degrade. But it is a little bit of a hint of things. The fact that Roshar has three moons in a very specific orbit is a hint about things.

This brings up my favorite Word of Peter where he yells at people about their moon gas giant theory.  In this he shoots down that Roshar can't be a gas giants at the same time as the moons being gas giants. My loony luna theory is that the moons were gas giants and were changed. He says he expects they were put there artificially. 

 

Quote

Miscellaneous 2014 (Jan. 1, 2014)
#1Feb. 6, 2014 

Peter Ahlstrom

Come on, guys, there are major major reasons Roshar can't possibly be a moon and one of the moons a gas giant. Think about it.

digitalbusker

Nobody ever remarks on how one of the "moons" takes up a quarter of the visible sky?

Peter Ahlstrom

Each moon is in the sky only once per day and moves across the sky in a couple to a few hours. What does that tell us about their orbits?

Could a gas giant be far enough away to look like a small moon, yet have this rapid of an apparent motion? (The answer is NO.)

Kurkistan

That they're really fast/close, I would think. Perhaps unusually so...  

Peter Ahlstrom

You may not be aware, but Mars's moon Phobos orbits in less than 8 hours, and gets less than 6,000 km from Mars's surface.

Kurkistan

Curses! Foiled again by SCIENCE!!!

Okay, so the orbits aren't magically augmented.

Still, that leaves us some information. The three moons are likely captured asteroids, then, rather than having split off from Roshar during its formation, Luna-style. Three captured asteroids at the same time in relatively stable, seemingly very close orbits... Anything significant in that, science people?

Peter Ahlstrom

I expect the moons were put in their current orbits artificially, but by whom or what I do not know. On astronomical terms, these are not stable orbits, but astronomical terms means millions of years. A few thousand or even a few hundred thousand years are no problem.

By the way, I minored in astronomy while at the university, for expressly science fictional purposes.

Leiyan

Were the moons also artificially created, or were they originally formed naturally?

Peter Ahlstrom

I don't know.

 

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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