Wax vs Vin vs Kelsier

[Podman]

26 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

Wait, Kell and vin are restricted to steel only but Wax gets to use feruchemy?

No, I think that that is in a situation where it would just be a battle with everyone allowed to use all their powers. 

[Calyx]

1 hour ago, podman36 said:

No, I think that that is in a situation where it would just be a battle with everyone allowed to use all their powers. 

Well then there would be no contest - Vin > Kelsier > Wax

[+robardin]

48 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

Wait, Kell and vin are restricted to steel only but Wax gets to use feruchemy?

That was more of a segue into what a Crasher could do that even a Mistborn couldn't do. Obviously in a straight up Steelpushing contest like the one Edwarn proposed to Wax in BoM, it wouldn't be a factor.

In that case, hasn't Allomancy weakened in power in Era 2 from the Final Empire? 

[Podman]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

That was more of a segue into what a Crasher could do that even a Mistborn couldn't do. Obviously in a straight up Steelpushing contest like the one Edwarn proposed to Wax in BoM, it wouldn't be a factor.

In that case, hasn't Allomancy weakened in power in Era 2 from the Final Empire? 

Probably. And Vin is extra strong, too.

14 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Well then there would be no contest - Vin > Kelsier > Wax

I disagree. Wax > Vin > Kelsier. Harmony, Wax could easily take on Vin and Kell together!

[Calyx]

34 minutes ago, podman36 said:

Probably. And Vin is extra strong, too.

I disagree. Wax > Vin > Kelsier. Harmony, Wax could easily take on Vin and Kell together!

Why do you think that? Wax already seems to have the most trouble with Thugs - I think any mistborn would be extremely challenging for him, even with his ferruchemy advantage. He would have a hard time hurting them (pewter) and they could push/pull - even against other coinshots Wax often looses his gun, and without it he has no chance against a mistborn. Add to this the fact that Vin and to a lesser extent Kelsier seem to be to normal mistborn what Wax is to a normal coinshot, and I don't see how he could realistically win.

This is actually one of the reasons I really enjoy the Wax & Wayne series - the characters are not ridiculously powerful compared to basically everyone they fight, and this gives a lot of fights good tension without having a force like Ruin directly involved.

[Podman]

40 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Why do you think that? Wax already seems to have the most trouble with Thugs - I think any mistborn would be extremely challenging for him, even with his ferruchemy advantage. He would have a hard time hurting them (pewter) and they could push/pull - even against other coinshots Wax often looses his gun, and without it he has no chance against a mistborn. Add to this the fact that Vin and to a lesser extent Kelsier seem to be to normal mistborn what Wax is to a normal coinshot, and I don't see how he could realistically win.

This is actually one of the reasons I really enjoy the Wax & Wayne series - the characters are not ridiculously powerful compared to basically everyone they fight, and this gives a lot of fights good tension without having a force like Ruin directly involved.

I think you underestimate the power of a Crasher. In BoM, Wax literally tore down a building. All Wax has to do to defeat Vin/Kelsier is tap a crap ton of iron and push really, really hard. Not even duralumin would save Vin/Kelsier. And yes, Wax does have trouble with Thugs, but he could brute force them the same way if he wanted to. He just prefers being conservative in his iron tapping.

[SilverTiger]

Kelsier and Vin are Mistborn. In an all-out battle, then they would both be able to defeat Wax. Also, Wax has a sense of fair play that Kelsier definitely lacks.

[Calyx]

13 minutes ago, podman36 said:

I think you underestimate the power of a Crasher. In BoM, Wax literally tore down a building. All Wax has to do to defeat Vin/Kelsier is tap a crap ton of iron and push really, really hard. Not even duralumin would save Vin/Kelsier. And yes, Wax does have trouble with Thugs, but he could brute force them the same way if he wanted to. He just prefers being conservative in his iron tapping.

I agree Wax is strong, and his combination of powers is fantastic - but what exactly would he push on? All of the metal that Kelsier and Vin wear? I'm pretty sure they can both dodge anything Wax pushes since (1) it will be moving in a straight line and (2) pewter/tin.

[Podman]

Just now, Calyx said:

I agree Wax is strong, and his combination of powers is fantastic - but what exactly would he push on? All of the metal that Kelsier and Vin wear? I'm pretty sure they can both dodge anything Wax pushes since (1) it will be moving in a straight line and (2) pewter/tin.

I suppose it depends on the environment. In modern Elendel, Wax wins no contest. In a more arena like setting, the Mistborn have a clear advantage.

[Kingsdaughter613]

This is supposed to just be a steel battle. Vin is stronger than Kell who is stronger than Wax.

Wax has more experience with just steel than Kell (unless we have BoM Kell) and Kell has more than Vin.

Both Kell and Wax are steel savants, but seem better in slightly different areas (Kell with focusing steel sight; Wax with deflecting.) Vin is not a savant.

Wax fights more fairly than Vin who fights more fairly than Kell.

Kell trained Vin and knows how she fights; Vin knows some of his skills but not others. Neither knows how Wax fights and vice versa.

Wax is familiar with guns; Vin and Kell are not (unless this is BoM Kell.)

Most important! Kell and Vin know each other but do not know Wax.

So K&V team up and beat Wax. Then K turns on V when she doesn’t suspect (when fighting Wax?)

K&V easily defeat Wax due to be considerably stronger than he is. Wax does put up a fight, but he is also being double teamed. 

Kell probably defeats Vin before she realizes he’s turned on her. If not, I still think he wins because steel is his specialty AND he knows exactly how she fights. He’s also more willing to hurt her than the other way around.

[IndigoAjah]

On 06/11/2017 at 4:51 PM, podman36 said:

I don't know about a straight up fight... Wax could just tap a crap ton of weight and push really, really hard. In Alloy of Law, if I remember correctly, he literally tore down a building. I don't think even duralumin would save Vin or Kel. He could probably take them on together! 

I think Wax would win with just Steel Pushing as well. Maybe. I say maybe because if he's not allowed to use his ironminds, that would be trouble because he's just so used to being lighter, etc.

There's a limit to how hard any Allomancer can push. Wax can increase his weight exponentially but that doesn't exponentially increase his Push power

[IndigoAjah]

16 hours ago, podman36 said:

I think you underestimate the power of a Crasher. In BoM, Wax literally tore down a building. All Wax has to do to defeat Vin/Kelsier is tap a crap ton of iron and push really, really hard. Not even duralumin would save Vin/Kelsier. And yes, Wax does have trouble with Thugs, but he could brute force them the same way if he wanted to. He just prefers being conservative in his iron tapping.

Edit: error

Edited November 8, 2017 by IndigoAjah

[IndigoAjah]

This all comes down to guns and whether Vin or Kel can deal with those. That huge technological leap is by far Wax's biggest advantage- his weight is useful in a direct pushing contest that will NEVER  occur. If the Mistborn can dodge his bullets, in close quarters he stands no chance at all

Edited November 8, 2017 by IndigoAjah

[The One Who Connects]

So, purely on Steel, I'd put my money on Kelsier.

Vin may have them both beat on raw power, but both Kelsier and Wax have more skill. Look at sword fights. Brute force has its advantages, but they can be negated by a skilled opponent. Might not always be easy, but it can be done. And then it would come down to whether Wax has more skill than Kelsier, since he'd be facing an opponent with more strength than him and nearly equal skill.

If we went to all of their powers, then I'd favor the Mistborn over Wax. He can make himself an immovable wall with his F-Iron, but unlike a wall, he still bends and breaks(especially from a pewter enhanced punch). Not 100% on whether I'd put Vin or Kelsier on top. If she gets duralumin though...

[Kingsdaughter613]

Vin will still hesitate when it comes to Kell. He won’t.

In a fight between all ‘normal’ (not vessels or Hoid) Cosmere characters Kelsier wins (unless Vasher does) per WoB. So in a full power match he still wins...

[Knghtstlker]

Warning Spoilers for Era 1 and 2 trilogies. No Arcanum Unbound please. I haven't read it yet.

 

Everyone is forgetting very important things in this fight. Lets talk this out. Everyone is coming to the table with their powers from main 6 books?

Vin, One of the most powerful Mistborn to have lived in her time minus her Lerasium Mistborn Husband that is. Vin had a determination that even when she was brand new training in TFE, She could almost match Kel in a shoving match. However, Kelsier if were using TFE was indeed a skilled warrior but I believe by the end of Mistborn Era 1, she surpassed Kel.

Wax, a Crasher, Steel Savant. and an Iron Feruchemist. He has the ability to tap and achieve heavier weights. Making his pushes bring down buildings, and anchor himself against pushes that Vin or Kel could have never achieved.

The fight. itself would be rather interesting..

Consideration one, Kelsier and Vin would have no real reason to fight, and Wax would be initially outclassed though he's a very adaptive fighter. Remember that Vin, the Ascended Warrior and the Survivor are things of legends, and Wax is a Descendent of Breeze. Wax would undoubtedly introduce himself making it known he's a direct descendant of Breeze.

Other things to consider. Vin and Kelsier have essentially half knowledge of Metals. If they were able to get Metals from a current Metallurgist they would have a following before they downed the first vial. What would their reaction be if they found out about the new metals? How would the use them. Vin would only have to brush past Kel or Wax and burn away the Metals and they would be left without vials by Wax's incessant heavy handed pushing. Leaving Vin to draw upon the mists a feat only she can do. Vin clearly has the upper hand with Kel metal-less, and Vin powered by the mist.

But, Wax would have an initial upper hand, Kel and Vin would be burning Tin, and Wax fires guns, something that Kel and Vin are unfamiliar with, noise wise. Tin enhanced ears would probably daze them making them dull their tin and flare pewter.

Mist. Wax likes the Mist, Kelsier is the Lord of the Mists, Vin is Fueled by them. Arcanum Unbound Not withstanding "No spoilers I haven't read Secret History yet" but have completed the first 6.

IF, Vin and Kel were fighting it would be Vin who would win, having more experience, Drawing on the Mists. He couldn't hide from her *If she kept her earring*. Vin defeated the Lord Ruler, Lord ruler defeated Kelsier. It's already recorded history Vin is a greater warrior than Kel.

Wax is another thing. If it were a Melee, Wax would put up a good fight, but ultimately lose. Vin having access to New Metals, even though she's new, she is more of a Savant Mistborn than anything else picking up superb skills much quicker than she ever should have. Imagine 12 year old Wax defeating TLR, wouldn't happen. Defeating a Fullborn-Mistborn, with the mists help. Defeating a Mere Twinborn would be cake. She already has faced the pushes that pulled at the minerals in her body and pushed back... She's quick and has Access to Electrum to dodge bullets *EVEN ALUMINUM*. Because she doesn't have to Push them to see where she's going to die and avoid it. Not as powerful as Atium, but Electrum was a good substitute as stated in HoA.

Plus as stated she would have access to new abilities like leaching. Vin and Kel are careful creatures. They would have the new metals explained and mastered quickly.

Wax has a few neat tricks, Weighted pushes. Even BoM Allomantic Grenades, a Thug Shotgun, If we take the end of the BoM He would have to request permission, from the Kandra IE Harmony, to use the BoM. Who would Harmony Favor? Vin the Ascended Warrior? Kelsier the Sovereign of the South? or Waxilium "Dawnshot" Ladrian? Who would Sazed allow to survive to carry on his will? BoM already knows that Kel lives. "Or lived on in some fashion" During the Catasandra *Spelling* to help save the southerners from Freezeing who did not have Ashmounts to shade them from the sun but thrived in the heat nonetheless.

Who would Harmony choose. He currently uses Wax as his Champion, but who knows whats next. *A.U.* not withstanding.

Lost Metal will bring some more points of argument to this table undoubtedly. However Vin the Mist-powered Ascended Warrior, would deal the final blow if it came to blows. Though I don't see a Ladrian on the side of the Law attacking Vin, and I don't see Kel attacking either, though Vin would surely attack anyone wearing Kel's skin. Thinking it a trick or a Kandra. Vin may not initially kill Kel, but she would instantly attack seeing someone looking like Kelsier. *She is the most apprehensive of the group* Even if Dawnshot has a better investigative skill, Vin was slower to connect dots, but was a pretty good detective herself.

If it's just a steel pushing match, then what's the point? Why would Vin or Kel even be involved for something as monotonous as a Steel pushing match. Might as well just ask who would win a Steel race instead of a fight to the death... Honestly. in a pure Steel fight Wax has upper hand, he's the most skilled with only steel. I'd still put my money on Vin, she's got a lot of heart. She may not be a steel savant but even when she was training with Kel her strength surprised the rust out of him.

If we're talking raw power why not mention Lerasium Born Elend? Who's power is greatest of all of them, he makes Vin and Kel's power seem trivial even if by the end of the Era 1 he's just not quite as skilled as perhaps Vin, but his experience with Koloss, and training with Vin still gives him a damnation good leg up on most competition.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Knghtstlker

[Knghtstlker]

46 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Vin will still hesitate when it comes to Kell. He won’t.

In a fight between all ‘normal’ (not vessels or Hoid) Cosmere characters Kelsier wins (unless Vasher does) per WoB. So in a full power match he still wins...

How do you figure in a fight with two mistborn one of which has killed not a Twin born misting but a Fullborn-Mistborn? TLR Killed Kel. He wasn't all powerful, he was just good. I argue by the end of Vin's time when Kelsier struggled to fight one Inquisitor, Vin fought off how many? A dozen? She surpassed Kelsier. A Coinshot doesn't stand a chance.

[Yata]

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Vin may have them both beat on raw power, but both Kelsier and Wax have more skill.

I am quite sure Kel is stronger (allomantic speaking) than Vin.

Anyway I saw a lot of comparison on "Vin killed a Fullborn, while Kel was killed by him". It's true but this tell us nothing about their abilities. Yeah Vin killed a Fullborn with an evident weakspot using an external power once of a luckly set of events she was able to understand TLR's nature. This doesn't give us any clue about Vin aganist a proper Fullborn and by the way, we don't need it as a Fullborn is something completelly beyond schemes and no Vin, Kelsier or Wax (and probably neither the three of them teaming up) will be able to properly defeat.

BUT here are we talking about a challenge with A-Steel alone, so my whole post here is meaningless too X

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Knghtstlker said:

How do you figure in a fight with two mistborn one of which has killed not a Twin born misting but a Fullborn-Mistborn? TLR Killed Kel. He wasn't all powerful, he was just good. I argue by the end of Vin's time when Kelsier struggled to fight one Inquisitor, Vin fought off how many? A dozen? She surpassed Kelsier. A Coinshot doesn't stand a chance.

It’s not about power. Or skill. Or anything at all really. Vin hesitates when Kell doesn’t. That’s all it takes.

And Vin only killed TLR due to a very specific sequence of events, as Yata describes above.

More importantly we do have a WoB on the subject which would indicate that Kell would win such a melee.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[shadowwisp]

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s not about power. Or skill. Or anything at all really. Vin hesitates when Kell doesn’t. That’s all it takes.

Quote

Vin will still hesitate when it comes to Kell. He won’t.

Just to clarify, you mean that Vin would hesitate to kill Kel while Kel wouldn't hesitate to kill Vin? 

If that is the case, I'm going to strongly disagree with you. They would both hesitate. Kel sees Vin as his daughter! Yes, Kel is a sociopath but that is not a black or white thing, it is a spectrum and it definitely does not mean he is heartless. 

Case in point: He hesitated when the Inquisitor was going to kill Elend, he could have let it happen and used it to his advantage. And Elend is a nobleman but he saved him at his own peril because of Elend's connection to Vin. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Kingsdaughter613]

Actually, the way psychopathy works is, as if, the psychopath has an empathy switch which they can turn on and off at will. And Kell is a neurological psychopath, not an actual one. (He fails the diagnostic criteria.) 

And Kell did stab Elend later.

But who said anything about killing? There are other ways to win a fight. He just has to defeat her, not kill her. And Vin would hesitate to turn on Kell; in a knockout fight he wouldn’t think twice.

And, again, there are numerous WoB that either Kell (or Vasher) would win in a melee.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[SilverTiger]

59 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And, again, there are numerous WoB that either Kell or Vasher would win in a melee.

So, I found this WoB in Arcanum (link: https://wob.coppermind.net/basic_search/?query=kelsier+wax, it is number 18):

Question

We've had great topics and discussions about this. If all of your characters were in a death match, who would win?

Brandon Sanderson

Honest truth is Kelsier. This is because of most of the characters, Kelsier is the one that is ruthless enough to get what he wants. Others would not be as ruthless. Kelsier as a character is very interesting to me. My kind of pitch on him to myself was he would be the villain in most stories. Kelsier in a lot of stories being told, in a lot of books that I would write, he's the villain but in this world, at this time, it is what the world needs and he is the hero. That's why I say Kelsier.

Which means, Kelsier wins. Period.

Edited November 9, 2017 by SilverTiger

[Kingsdaughter613]

There is another one that states that it would come down to Kell and Vasher. And another, specific to Kaladin and Kelsier, that Kaladin wins on the battlefield and Kell wins everywhere else. (Though Kal winning is because his squad helps, and he knows how to use an army.)

Thanks for finding that WoB for me! The ‘or Vasher’ should have been in parethesis, due to not being essential to this topic.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Knghtstlker]

So Kel wins, except when it comes to getting backhanded by TLR then? I guess Then Kelsier definitely loses, and that "One time event", that winds up being the entire plot of the final battle scene, totally never happened again and never fought off way more inquisitors than Kel ever could at once. I'm sorry Kelsier lovers, but dude died, maybe not from the backhand, and maybe the spear through his chest was purposefully done to be a Hemalurgical spike. I don't know, and haven't read secret history yet so don't ruin it. but by all accounts to anyone that has read the 6 mistborn books, Kels a dead dude, and Vin, killed his murderer in a standoff fight. She used skill, observation, luck, and the mists as she was granted use of them by preservation, and killed TLR.

Perhaps she would even give Kel another backhand before dealing final blow. If were accounting for personalities, Vin wins. She would never allow an abomination to wear Kelsier's body. If we're speaking to a specific skill. Vin has more of it. If you're using WoB from 2008, before Era 2 it may not be as solvent as one would from 2017. Characters and ideas would have since changed. Kel thinks of Vin as his daughter, he has shown remorse. He has shown mercy, he is not psychopathically murdering everyone in his path. Vin did this a few times herself, but she was always stronger than Kel because she can use judgement and rage. Not one or the other, you could say Kelsier's Emotional "Spikes" needed to be switched out, while Vin could use them both. When it comes to a coinshot vs Vin, still no contest..

 

At the end of the day, Kel got backhanded into oblivion before getting spiked offhandedly by TLR. Vin I'm certain I remember correctly took one of those backhands and kept on going. I suppose I should go back and read the first book again, but I really do remember Kelsier keeping TLR Pimp hand strong, am I wrong in remembering this :P.. Vin was the strongest, she was the best.

She would absolutely kill anyone who desecrated the corpse and memory of Kelsier without a seconds hesitation. While she may hesitate to kill the real one off handedly, she would not hesitate to murder an imposter of someone she knows to have died from a spear through the heart, and then had his body consumed by a Kandra.

[Kingsdaughter613]

The WoB are all pretty recent and long standing. And those melee’s do not include character’s like TLR.

Vin beating TLR was because she could use the mists and he was complacent. Ordinarily she would have died. She does not get the Mists in this fight.

Kell did survive his death. It wasn’t easy. Which is irrelevant to this fight, because it presumes everyone knows the identities of the others.

Besides, the use of Allomancy would be a good start at convincing her, and I’m sure Kell could bring her around.