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[OB] Does Renarin know about Adolin/Sadeas?


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I'm almost finished with a WoR reread. And I've read thru 27 of oathbringer so far, but I can't recall... does anyone know what adolin did?

And how do renarins powers work? Is it possible he has "seen" what happened to sadeas?

ThaNK you in advance :)

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Nobody knows. Some people have theorize Renarin "saw" Adolin murdering Sadeas or somehow "read in his mind", but I am not convinced. There is nothing within Renarin's behavior which suggest he knows. Besides, it has been weeks since Sadeas was found dead, had Renarin suspect or knew it was Adolin, surely he would have confronted his brother. The fact he didn't seem to indicate he has no idea.

My current position is thus nobody knows and seeing how the story is going so far, it may be nobody will ever know. If they haven't find clues, after weeks of investigation, then it may be there are none to find and without incentive, Adolin will never speak up.

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12 hours ago, maxal said:

My current position is thus nobody knows and seeing how the story is going so far, it may be nobody will ever know. If they haven't find clues, after weeks of investigation, then it may be there are none to find and without incentive, Adolin will never speak up.

Alternatively, Re-Shephir may have seen Adolin do it (and that's why she copied the death). Since Shallan is doing a mind meld with the Unmade, it's possible that Shallan will start to have memories of Adolin killing Sadeas.

I think Adolin will eventually be found out (by at least one person). Either he'll crack and tell Shallan/Dalinar, or Shallan will actually find clues leading to Adolin.

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23 minutes ago, Govir said:

Alternatively, Re-Shephir may have seen Adolin do it (and that's why she copied the death). Since Shallan is doing a mind meld with the Unmade, it's possible that Shallan will start to have memories of Adolin killing Sadeas.

I think Adolin will eventually be found out (by at least one person). Either he'll crack and tell Shallan/Dalinar, or Shallan will actually find clues leading to Adolin.

thank you both for your insight!! much appreciated

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Renarin seems to know or suspect something:

Quote

Shallan narrowed her eyes. What had gotten into him? She glanced toward Renarin, who still stood up above, on the walkway around the empty pool. He watched Adolin with unblinking sapphire eyes. He was always a little strange, but he seemed to know something she didn’t.

Quote

 

He stalked off, and Shallan hurried after him. Renarin remained in the room, looking down the hall after them until Shallan got far enough away that—over her shoulder—she could no longer see him.

 

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he had seen something about the copycat murderer that made him think of Adolin.

Unfortunately, he's keeping us in suspense and nobody's asking him either, that we see.

 

11 minutes ago, Govir said:

Alternatively, Re-Shephir may have seen Adolin do it (and that's why she copied the death). Since Shallan is doing a mind meld with the Unmade, it's possible that Shallan will start to have memories of Adolin killing Sadeas.

I think Adolin will eventually be found out (by at least one person). Either he'll crack and tell Shallan/Dalinar, or Shallan will actually find clues leading to Adolin.

I can't see any indication that Shallan got such information. We saw nothing except it's own emotions / fears and some info about it.

But yes I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan figures something out. She seems to pick up little hints every time she meets Adolin, almost. For now, Adolin doesn't seem about to crack and confess though.

 

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Renarin definitely knows, IMO.

1) We've never had a Renarin POV and I think that is mostly not to give too much away with what he sees. He's also described as "impenetrable" by Dalinar and no one really understands him. His character is precisely being written as a guy who knows a lot more than he's saying.

2) From Chapter 9:

Quote

 

“You want me,” Adolin said, “to investigate who killed Sadeas.”

Dalinar nodded, squatting down beside the corpse, though Shallan had no idea what he expected to see. The fellow was very dead. “Perhaps if I put my son on the job, it will convince people I’m serious about finding the killer. Perhaps not—they might just think I’ve put someone in charge who can keep the secret. Storms, I miss Jasnah. She would have known how to spin this, to keep opinion from turning against us in court.

“Either way, son, stay on this. Make sure the remaining highprinces at least know that we consider these murders a priority, and that we are dedicated to finding the one who committed them.”

Adolin swallowed. “I understand.”

Shallan narrowed her eyes. What had gotten into him? She glanced toward Renarin, who still stood up above, on the walkway around the empty pool. He watched Adolin with unblinking sapphire eyes. He was always a little strange, but he seemed to know something she didn’t.

 

Emphasis mine. Renarin definitely, definitely knows. 

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6 hours ago, Govir said:

Alternatively, Re-Shephir may have seen Adolin do it (and that's why she copied the death). Since Shallan is doing a mind meld with the Unmade, it's possible that Shallan will start to have memories of Adolin killing Sadeas.

I think Adolin will eventually be found out (by at least one person). Either he'll crack and tell Shallan/Dalinar, or Shallan will actually find clues leading to Adolin.

There is no indication Shallan saw anything with respect to Adolin murdering Sadeas, so while Re-Shephir may know the truth, it hasn't shown Shallan.

There is no signs Adolin is about to crack either now nor within the distant future.

5 hours ago, vividox said:

Emphasis mine. Renarin definitely, definitely knows. 

I don't agree with the conclusion. Just because Shallan thinks, based on his expression, Renarin knows something does not mean he does: it just means Shallan is very uncomfortable with Renarin and finds him creepy. Besides, if Renarin knew, then he would have confronted Adolin with his knowledge, just as he did when he thought Adolin was mistrusting his guards. This isn't something Renarin would keep silent for weeks without ever trying to talk to his brother and if such talk happened, well, it didn't happened behind closed doors.

Thus no, I remain on my position: Renarin does not know.

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal I doubt we will see Adolin get away scot-free. Ialai and Amaram won't just forget Sadeas death, and neither will Shallan. She felt bad about not having found anything on his murderer last chapter. 

I don't know... It doesn't look like this particular story arc is going anywhere and it's been weeks (in-world). The more time passes, the less likely it becomes for Adolin to be found as the culprit and since he has absolutely no guilt towards his actions nor does he seem to be anywhere close to breaking down, the probabilities of him saying the truth are slim to none.

I do not, for the moment, believe Adolin will suffer any consequences for his murder of Sadeas nor do I believe anyone is ever going to find out, not until a very, very long time and this may not even be within this book.

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19 minutes ago, maxal said:

I do not, for the moment, believe Adolin will suffer any consequences for his murder of Sadeas nor do I believe anyone is ever going to find out, not until a very, very long time and this may not even be within this book.

I think you underestimate Ialai. It's not so much a matter of finding out, it's a matter of having proof. Adolin's grudge against Sadeas was public in Way of Kings when Renarin had to openly restrain him during the first chapters we're introduced to them. Then, there's the fight on the Tower, and the four shardbearer's duel. Putting Adolin in charge of the investigation was about the most politically dense thing Dalinar could have done, putting one of the people with the most motivation to kill him in charge. 

 

19 minutes ago, maxal said:

The more time passes, the less likely it becomes for Adolin to be found as the culprit and since he has absolutely no guilt towards his actions nor does he seem to be anywhere close to breaking down, the probabilities of him saying the truth are slim to none.

They just found the Shardblade. That's huge. It eliminates it down to personal motive since they didn't take the Blade, putting the suspicion square on Adolin. Then there's the scraping on the wall that was noted in the chapter. As soon as someone looks into that other theories will form. If Ialai gets access to the area where it was found, I bet she has people who can put it together, and she already knew that it was a personal plan of Torol to provoke Adolin. 

Quote

Sadeas tapped his finger against the side of his seat. “What was it you said about duelists? That they’re brash? Hotheaded?”

“Yes. And?”

“Adolin is both of those things and more,” Sadeas said softly, considering. “He can be goaded, pushed around, brought to anger. He has passion like his father, but he controls it less securely.”

Can I get him right up to the cliff’s edge, Sadeas thought, then shove him off?

“Stop discouraging people from fighting him,” Sadeas said. “Don’t encourage them to fight him, either. Step back. I want to see how this develops.”

“That sounds dangerous,” Ialai said. “That boy is a weapon, Torol.”

“True,” Sadeas said, standing, “but you are rarely cut by a weapon if you are the one holding its hilt.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 354). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

3

In chapter 5 she is setting up her spies among Dalinar's scribes, In Chapter 58 they set them in motion to steal the transcriptions of the visions, puts that plan into motion after Dalinar bonds the blade and Kaladin is released from prison in Chapter 67, and then sets her assassin in motion in 68. She's not afraid of the long con. Her business with Amaram only reinforces that. She's brought in a rival who matches his reputation that Dalinar used to even trust himself but has now denounced, and if she soon reveals that the noble Dalinar Kholin's son, the man in charge of the investigation was actually the murderer, the political gains would be enormous. The boost to Amaram and her credibility would be immense. I think she's biding her time, and the moment is coming soon. I expect nothing less from the person Sadeas described as "the most dangerous woman I know."

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54 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I think you underestimate Ialai. It's not so much a matter of finding out, it's a matter of having proof. Adolin's grudge against Sadeas was public in Way of Kings when Renarin had to openly restrain him during the first chapters we're introduced to them. Then, there's the fight on the Tower, and the four shardbearer's duel. Putting Adolin in charge of the investigation was about the most politically dense thing Dalinar could have done, putting one of the people with the most motivation to kill him in charge. 

It isn't I disagree with you here, but force is to admit a long has passed since Sadeas was killed and nothing happened. The more time passes, the less chances there are of anything happening and with the unmade being found, they may just drop the investigation. I'm just not feeling it within the current narrative.

55 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

They just found the Shardblade. That's huge. It eliminates it down to personal motive since they didn't take the Blade, putting the suspicion square on Adolin. Then there's the scraping on the wall that was noted in the chapter. As soon as someone looks into that other theories will form. If Ialai gets access to the area where it was found, I bet she has people who can put it together, and she already knew that it was a personal plan of Torol to provoke Adolin. 

It doesn't. They assumed the killed dropped it and ran away. We also have to consider a Shardblade isn't actually something someone can hide easily. There are a lot of reasons why it can have been dropped which absolutely does not relate to Adolin. Also, they think the killer escaped through this path when he didn't. If anything, it sends them searching into the wrong direction.

They didn't note the scrapping onto the wall.. I don't recall reading this, I must read again then. It was about the only clue which could lead to Adolin, but it is so tenuous.

58 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

In chapter 5 she is setting up her spies among Dalinar's scribes, In Chapter 58 they set them in motion to steal the transcriptions of the visions, puts that plan into motion after Dalinar bonds the blade and Kaladin is released from prison in Chapter 67, and then sets her assassin in motion in 68. She's not afraid of the long con. Her business with Amaram only reinforces that. She's brought in a rival who matches his reputation that Dalinar used to even trust himself but has now denounced, and if she soon reveals that the noble Dalinar Kholin's son, the man in charge of the investigation was actually the murderer, the political gains would be enormous. The boost to Amaram and her credibility would be immense. I think she's biding her time, and the moment is coming soon. I expect nothing less from the person Sadeas described as "the most dangerous woman I know."

I quoted the same chapter within another thread to illustrates Ialai may have it against Adolin. However, since then, nothing has happened within the narrative and many days have passed. My thoughts are this isn't a story arc which can be allowed to linger forever: either something happens or nothing happens, so far it has been more nothing than something. Besides, Brandon never said there would be consequences for Adolin, he said there would be ramifications (we saw them Re-Shephir), but he never said something would happen to Adolin.

By all means, he has gotten away with it. The only way this comes out is if he speaks and he won't speak unless he feels pressured to or breaks down. Neither is also happening anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

I don't agree with the conclusion. Just because Shallan thinks, based on his expression, Renarin knows something does not mean he does: it just means Shallan is very uncomfortable with Renarin and finds him creepy. Besides, if Renarin knew, then he would have confronted Adolin with his knowledge, just as he did when he thought Adolin was mistrusting his guards. This isn't something Renarin would keep silent for weeks without ever trying to talk to his brother and if such talk happened, well, it didn't happened behind closed doors.

The scene was very clearly foreshadowing that Renarin knows something the rest don't. It is so much more than her finding Renarin creepy. But you're right that we can't be sure what exactly Renarin knows. 

We also can't assume that he would confront Adolin over murder. No previous circumstances in a relationship can tell you how you respond to finding out a loved one is a murderer. Comparing that revelation to confronting Adolin over mistrusting his guards is a bit asymmetric, don't you think?

My conclusion: maybe Renarin knows. I like the reasoning others have put forth. Personally I think he is merely suspicious and has Seen some of the future potential Adolins and is figuring out what led him to each. I'm of the opinion that truthwatchers see the future only and view it as strings of probabilities like in Dune. I don't think he saw the murder, just its consequences on Adolin.

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4 minutes ago, maxal said:

They didn't note the scrapping onto the wall.. I don't recall reading this, I must read again then. It was about the only clue which could lead to Adolin, but it is so tenuous.

Quote

Dalinar squinted, picking out a gouge cut into the rock wall. What could score stone like that? It almost looked like…

 

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

They assumed the killed dropped it and ran away. We also have to consider a Shardblade isn't actually something someone can hide easily.

Dalinar assumes this, and if the killer isn't after a Shardblade that moves the motive to personal instead of to gain a Blade. Also, Shardblades can be magically dismissed once they are bonded. Dalinar uses this trick to fool Amaram, and he's as high profile as you can get. That's fairly easy to hide. The Blade staying hidden was Adolin's best chance at staying undiscovered. If Ialai insists on investigating the area herself, I doubt she'll come to the same conclusion. She has spies among their clerks who will know that they were using chalk symbols to mark the walls.

 

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

. My thoughts are this isn't a story arc which can be allowed to linger forever: either something happens or nothing happens, so far it has been more nothing than something.

Until the chapter where they discover a priceless weapon and physical evidence. I just disagree, but I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. 

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30 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

The scene was very clearly foreshadowing that Renarin knows something the rest don't. It is so much more than her finding Renarin creepy. But you're right that we can't be sure what exactly Renarin knows. 

We also can't assume that he would confront Adolin over murder. No previous circumstances in a relationship can tell you how you respond to finding out a loved one is a murderer. Comparing that revelation to confronting Adolin over mistrusting his guards is a bit asymmetric, don't you think?

My conclusion: maybe Renarin knows. I like the reasoning others have put forth. Personally I think he is merely suspicious and has Seen some of the future potential Adolins and is figuring out what led him to each. I'm of the opinion that truthwatchers see the future only and view it as strings of probabilities like in Dune. I don't think he saw the murder, just its consequences on Adolin.

Ooooh dune. I love Dune. The first one, anyway. And the second one was alright too. 

Anyway, i don't think such an ending to Adolins arc in WoR will just go unaddressed in OB. Someone's going to find out. Now the question is what will happen when someone finds out. I look forward to finding out. 

Speaking of which, when the heck are they going to make Adolin Highprince already

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I think Renarin knows as well because of the above mentioned scene and then the scene in chapter 10. 

Quote

Renarin looked to him, then smiled. A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.

I think Renarin was not only trying to heal Adolin’s hand here but his guilt. 

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2 hours ago, OathKeeper said:

The scene was very clearly foreshadowing that Renarin knows something the rest don't. It is so much more than her finding Renarin creepy. But you're right that we can't be sure what exactly Renarin knows. 

We also can't assume that he would confront Adolin over murder. No previous circumstances in a relationship can tell you how you respond to finding out a loved one is a murderer. Comparing that revelation to confronting Adolin over mistrusting his guards is a bit asymmetric, don't you think?

My conclusion: maybe Renarin knows. I like the reasoning others have put forth. Personally I think he is merely suspicious and has Seen some of the future potential Adolins and is figuring out what led him to each. I'm of the opinion that truthwatchers see the future only and view it as strings of probabilities like in Dune. I don't think he saw the murder, just its consequences on Adolin.

I don't think so... Shallan thinking Renarin's facial expressions imply he is hiding something is not a very strong argument. Renarin is autistic which means his behavioral patterns will be different than with normal people. Just recently, one of my sister's friend, who has two mildly autistic children, told me how one of her daughters explained to her her ears wouldn't work when her eyes were busy... My sister's friend had been puzzled by her daughter's behavior until the kid managed to voice it out. It made me think of Renarin within this one scene. His eyes were working intensely on something, the rest of him likely wasn't responsive which accounts for him looking suspicious. 

I still maintain my point, Renarin knowing and not trying to talk it out with Adolin doesn't seem very plausible.

I however agree with your last paragraph, the bout where you theorize Renarin maybe saw consequences onto Adolin without knowing what they are for. This, I can agree with as Renarin seem to have get something when he healed Adolin.

2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Dalinar assumes this, and if the killer isn't after a Shardblade that moves the motive to personal instead of to gain a Blade. Also, Shardblades can be magically dismissed once they are bonded. Dalinar uses this trick to fool Amaram, and he's as high profile as you can get. That's fairly easy to hide. The Blade staying hidden was Adolin's best chance at staying undiscovered. If Ialai insists on investigating the area herself, I doubt she'll come to the same conclusion. She has spies among their clerks who will know that they were using chalk symbols to mark the walls.

 

Until the chapter where they discover a priceless weapon and physical evidence. I just disagree, but I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. 

Ah I recall reading this but then it moved to the Shardblade and my brain short-cut the information :ph34r: I haven't had time for a re-read yet. So they found the mark, I agree this may make things move forward.

The killer need not have been after the Shardblade, he might have genuinely want to kill Sadeas, but then didn't know what to do with the Blade, so he dropped it. I don't think why they would assume the motive was to earn a Shardblade nor do I think eliminating this as a motive helps them progress. I still don't see how it makes them corner Adolin.

In my case, it isn't I disagree with you, I am just not sure murdering Sadeas will pan out into more than what we have seen so far.

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Ooooh dune. I love Dune. The first one, anyway. And the second one was alright too. 

Anyway, i don't think such an ending to Adolins arc in WoR will just go unaddressed in OB. Someone's going to find out. Now the question is what will happen when someone finds out. I look forward to finding out. 

Speaking of which, when the heck are they going to make Adolin Highprince already

The problem is each time Adolin gets a climaxes, the consequences are never to his character. Always, they are used to start new arcs meant for other characters. Hence, I am getting dubious it will get addressed in a meaningful way for Adolin's character.

35 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Actually, a shardblade is extremely easy to hide. 

Not until you bond it... Until then it has to stay close to you and it isn't exactly discreet. 

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I dont believe anyome has found where Adolin cut away his chalk mark yet. If I read the chapter correctly then the scoring they found was outside on the balcony, probably from when the blade was falling after Adolin dumped it.

I expect they will put it together, but no one seems to have done so at this point.

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4 hours ago, Jace21 said:

I dont believe anyome has found where Adolin cut away his chalk mark yet. If I read the chapter correctly then the scoring they found was outside on the balcony, probably from when the blade was falling after Adolin dumped it.

I expect they will put it together, but no one seems to have done so at this point.

Exactly what I wanted to say, they didn't find a mark inside. But outside where the blade fell.

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5 hours ago, Jace21 said:

If I read the chapter correctly then the scoring they found was outside on the balcony, probably from when the blade was falling after Adolin dumped it.

I think you're right. Going back to Words of Radiance I had been imagining the scene incorrectly now that I can fill it in with Oathbreaker details. When he 'ditched' it out the window I was thinking the planter was closer the the window, but I see that I was wrong now.

Quote

Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there.

 

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12 hours ago, maxal said:

The killer need not have been after the Shardblade, he might have genuinely want to kill Sadeas, but then didn't know what to do with the Blade, so he dropped it. I don't think why they would assume the motive was to earn a Shardblade nor do I think eliminating this as a motive helps them progress. I still don't see how it makes them corner Adolin.

I would think though that finding a priceless possession "ditched" after killing Sadeas weeks after his death severely limits the suspect pool. How many people would just leave this behind after killing him? Yes it is the smoking gun but it is also priceless. If an honor balde can be hidden so can a shardblade. Ialai obviously suspects the Kholins and after Dalinar Adolin is the prime suspect. It looks like a crime of passion and who else is a better suspect? Ialai is no dummy. 

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17 hours ago, maxal said:

I don't agree with the conclusion. Just because Shallan thinks, based on his expression, Renarin knows something does not mean he does: it just means Shallan is very uncomfortable with Renarin and finds him creepy. Besides, if Renarin knew, then he would have confronted Adolin with his knowledge, just as he did when he thought Adolin was mistrusting his guards. This isn't something Renarin would keep silent for weeks without ever trying to talk to his brother and if such talk happened, well, it didn't happened behind closed doors.

Thus no, I remain on my position: Renarin does not know.

While it is true that we are currently in the head of Shallan, who cannot be a reliable source of information when making a judgement on another person, you also have to consider that Shallan's head is a part of a book in which the author has license to use foreshadowing. Renarin staring at Adolin at the exact moment he's being charged with investigating the murder, and having that fact precisely spelled out this way, is extremely coincidental if Renarin doesn't know anything. 

Quote

I do not, for the moment, believe Adolin will suffer any consequences for his murder of Sadeas nor do I believe anyone is ever going to find out, not until a very, very long time and this may not even be within this book.

Of course Adolin will suffer consequences for murdering Sadeas.

Edited by vividox
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22 hours ago, Jace21 said:

I dont believe anyome has found where Adolin cut away his chalk mark yet. If I read the chapter correctly then the scoring they found was outside on the balcony, probably from when the blade was falling after Adolin dumped it.

I expect they will put it together, but no one seems to have done so at this point.

Ah... This is how I read it. At the time, I thought they had found the chalk mark, but then I realized they had found Oathbringer, but then when challenged, I wondered if maybe I didn't read it properly... which could have also happened. Hence I doubted my recollection.

9 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

I would think though that finding a priceless possession "ditched" after killing Sadeas weeks after his death severely limits the suspect pool. How many people would just leave this behind after killing him? Yes it is the smoking gun but it is also priceless. If an honor balde can be hidden so can a shardblade. Ialai obviously suspects the Kholins and after Dalinar Adolin is the prime suspect. It looks like a crime of passion and who else is a better suspect? Ialai is no dummy. 

Yes and no. Imagine a random soldier stumbling on Sadeas and, mad angry at him, stabs him.... Killing a Highprince is a serious offense, it is reasonable to think said random soldier might have panic. And while a Shardblade is a prized inestimable catch, if you can't be seen bonding it without being accused of murder, then what use is it? I used to think Ialai was suspecting Adolin, but I am not so sure anymore.

9 hours ago, vividox said:

While it is true that we are currently in the head of Shallan, who cannot be a reliable source of information when making a judgement on another person, you also have to consider that Shallan's head is a part of a book in which the author has license to use foreshadowing. Renarin staring at Adolin at the exact moment he's being charged with investigating the murder, and having that fact precisely spelled out this way, is extremely coincidental if Renarin doesn't know anything. 

Of course Adolin will suffer consequences for murdering Sadeas.

While Renarin was looking at Adolin, was he seeing him? What I meant with my real-life autism example is Renarin might have been focusing on the conversation and not really seeing Adolin. In short, he might have been staring into the empty. Also, Adolin was kind of publicly freaking out during this scene and yet nobody noticed, except for Shallan. In the past, every single times Adolin had public emotional outburst, Renarin was the first to try to talk him out of it. Hence, how come, if Renarin was really, really seeing Adolin, didn't he take action? It is one of the reasons I don't believe Renarin knows anything, nothing concrete.

I am not sure about the consequences. It is just not where the story seems to be heading.

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