Shadowmancer

[OB] Killing and Resurrecting Shardblades

27 posts in this topic

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“Could it be rescued?” Dalinar whispered as they entered the tower and climbed a stairway. “Could we save the spren who made this Blade?”

I know of no way, the Stormfather said. It is dead, as is the man who broke his oath to kill it. [Oathbringer Ch. 28]

Firstly, if indeed a dead spren/shardblade can be resurrected, it will be an entirely new thing. However, we know already that it is technically possible to do. Syl came back, but it was Kaladin who returned to his Oaths. The Radiant is dead and cannot do so now. So how would this happen? The Stormfather is not exactly a flexible being, and Tanavast was never much good at seeing into the future. Thoughts/theories that He wouldn't have thought of yet?

Second, the man "broke his oath to kill it." This implies an action taken with a specific intent. I know we're all kings of reading too much into things, but this seems ... intentional. As for the reason why he wanted to kill it, you can see my signature for my personal theory, but the intent to kill was obviously there.

Lastly, the spren is still there. It exists, and learns, though not quite the same as before.

Quote

“This one doesn’t scream as loudly as others. Why?”

It remembers your oath, the Stormfather sent. It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others. [Oathbringer Ch. 28]

Could Dalinar possibly re-bond Oathbringer if it comes back to life? I feel like this is more than an informative exchange. I think we're going to see Oathbringer again. I mean, it's the name of the book. And I really think we're going to see it in regards to Dalinar. Maybe Amaram will try to kill him with Oathbringer and it will refuse to hurt him? Amaram brings it back to life and suddenly becomes a contender to Dalinar's authority?

What are your ideas?

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I doubt Dalimar will bond the spren of oathbringer, as he is already bonded to the stormfather. But I have seen a lot of people theorising that Adolin will revive and bond his blade, so this could be foreshadowing for that

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The issue I see with the dead blades is that they were broken in a specific way. Kaladin broke Syl by promising to defend the King and failing to do so (I believe he could have broken his promise to Moash without breaking the bond). He restored the bond by fulfilling his oath without regard for his own life. I believe the vision with the Windrunners shows the exact same thing, but done deliberately by the entire Order. They arrived and attacked a fortification that they had sworn to defend. A similar, but opposite act would probably be required to restore the bond.

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If anything, these reveals made it far less likely that Adolin would be able to revive his blade.

Not only would it be brand new, but Adolin would need to be stupidly similar on a spiritual level to the original radiant who had wielded the sword and he would need to speak the same oaths

To top it, he would first need to stop using the darn thing and break his bond just so that it hates him slightly less.......

Edited by Nymeros
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I was talking about this earlier today on discord. I came up with (what I believe is) an outlandish method for reviving a dead sprenblade but which would actually work within our understanding of the cosmere. Here are the steps I came up with:

  1. Find a Connector ferring.
  2. Make a Hemalurgic spike from them with duralumin.
  3. Spike yourself to gain the ability to store and tap Connection.
  4. Store Connection in a duraluminmind (no idea how much is needed).
  5. Tap your duraluminmind while holding a dead sprenblade and saying the proper oaths (you probably have to mean them as well).

We know from WoB, that just reciting the oaths isn't enough to revive a dead sprenblade [1], and also that Connection to the spren would be required for it to do anything cool [2]. You can't spike the Lost Radiant because s/he is dead so we need a way to duplicate that Connection. Enter Feruchemical duralumin, which stores Connection. In BoM,

Spoiler

Allik is able to use a medallion to increase his Connection to Elendel Basin and thus be able to speak Wax's language.

I believe the same principle could be used to increase Connection to a dead sprenblade, and with enough Connection to the spren, you should have a psuedo-Nahel bond. At that point, if you were to commit to the proper oaths, it should hopefully be the same as when Kaladin recommitted to the Windrunner Ideals and spoke the third oath. Voila: revived spren!

Really, for this to work, you can replace steps 1-4 with anything that allows you to artificially increase your Connection. There are probably other magic systems in the cosmere which have this mechanic, but the only one I can think of Feruchemy.

But what happens next though? Well, once you stop tapping your duralminmind, you lose your Connection to the spren, and the Nahel bond would dissolve. I'm not sure if this would kill the spren again, but the spren could get around this by breaking the bond before you stop tapping your duraluminmind. In fact, I think that's most likely, since WoB is that spren won't like Hemalurgic spikes [3].

So this is solely a method for reviving the spren. It would not make you a surgebinder for any useful amount of time (if at all). It's just an exception to Brandon's rule that "in most cases, the original person who broke the oaths has to be the one" to revive a dead spren [1].

Edited by Salkara
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20 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

If anything, these reveals made it far less likely that Adolin would be able to revive his blade.

Not only would it be brand new, but Adolin would need to be stupidly similar on a spiritual level to the original radiant who had wielded the sword and he would need to speak the same oaths

To top it, he would first need to stop using the darn thing and break his bond just so that it hates him slightly less.......

I don't think anyone was assuming that resurrecting a "dead" Shardblade would be easy. After all, it's never been done before, despite all this time.

However, it's been discussed more than once in-world - it came up in WoR as well, briefly.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

In BoM

If it's in Bands of Mourning shouldn't you put it in a spoiler block? I have read all mustborn but not everyone here will have 

Edited by Gigalemesh
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39 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

If it's in Bands of Mourning shouldn't you put it in a spoiler block? I have read all mustborn but not everyone here will have 

Just reread the spoiler policy. I'd mistaken the "no spoiler tags required after 6 months" bit to mean not required in any forum, but it looks like (you're right) that only applies to the forum for that book or series.

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12 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Just reread the spoiler policy. I'd mistaken the "no spoiler tags required after 6 months" bit to mean not required in any forum, but it looks like (you're right) that only applies to the forum for that book or series.

Cool, I wasn't 100% sure

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Odium restored the Connection & Identity of the parshmen. 

Not that I expect he is ready to help here. 

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1 hour ago, Gigalemesh said:

mustborn

 

Is this the book where Gerald appears? I really must read it in that case ;-)

Sorry, Gigalemesh. Really can't help myself.

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3 hours ago, kmosiman said:

The issue I see with the dead blades is that they were broken in a specific way. Kaladin broke Syl by promising to defend the King and failing to do so (I believe he could have broken his promise to Moash without breaking the bond). He restored the bond by fulfilling his oath without regard for his own life. I believe the vision with the Windrunners shows the exact same thing, but done deliberately by the entire Order. They arrived and attacked a fortification that they had sworn to defend. A similar, but opposite act would probably be required to restore the bond.

I don't believe that they actually attacked anything.  Abandoning the Blade and Plate, presumably while renouncing their oaths seemed to do it.  They flew (or walked) in, lined up, and disarmed.  Dalinar sensed the screaming in the dream and watched the glowing cease. 

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So the question I'm still ruminating over is this -- why did they intentionally kill their spren? The Stormfather doesn't say "the man who broke his oath AND killed it," he says "the man who broke his oath TO kill it." They weren't just breaking their oaths for the sake of breaking the bond, they were breaking their oaths TO KILL THEIR SPREN. That's ... huge. Killing your closest friend and source of power? And everyone doing it all at once? The Recreance is taking on more significance to me.

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1 hour ago, Shadowmancer said:

So the question I'm still ruminating over is this -- why did they intentionally kill their spren? The Stormfather doesn't say "the man who broke his oath AND killed it," he says "the man who broke his oath TO kill it." They weren't just breaking their oaths for the sake of breaking the bond, they were breaking their oaths TO KILL THEIR SPREN. That's ... huge. Killing your closest friend and source of power? And everyone doing it all at once? The Recreance is taking on more significance to me.

We should probably keep in mind the Stormfather's viewpoint. If the Radiants purposefully broke the oaths, with the unfortunate side effect of killing the spren, the Stormfather would consider both the breaking and killing intentional. A less extreme view might be that the Radiants felt compelled to break the oaths for some unknown reason, not with the purpose of killing the spren.

A reason they did so while the spren had physical form might have been a form of mercy to the human population. "Hey, we're leaving for.... reasons, but here are some super swords so you don't get rolled next desolation, k bye". The spren would have been dead either way, so might as well make them useful.

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Dead Spren becoming swords seems to be what happens if you have enough ideals to summon one. There is a WoB that Syl would have become a Blade if killed after Kalladin swore his third Oath.

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8 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 

Is this the book where Gerald appears? I really must read it in that case ;-)

Sorry, Gigalemesh. Really can't help myself.

Hahahaha oops, not my best day for spelling it seems

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I think there is one fool-proof way to resurrect a dead shardblade (Warbreaker spoiler):

Spoiler

One of the Returned could give his divine breath in order to restore a dead spren.  I don't know that sacrificing Vasher/Zahel to power up a shardblade would necessarily be a good trade, but I think it is possible.

 

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16 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Is this the book where Gerald appears? I really must read it in that case ;-)

Sorry, Gigalemesh. Really can't help myself.

*cue nature documentary voice*

And here, we see a Herald of Bad Jokes in his natural habitat.

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Soulstamp the shardblade where its Radiant did not break his/her oath.

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12 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Soulstamp the shardblade where its Radiant did not break his/her oath.

Of course, it could theoratically be a complicating factor that Sel's magic is so location-based.

Though I guess you could bring the Shardblade to Sel.

That is, if you safely get there and back, considering there's a bit of an Investiture overload in the Cognitive Realm around there.

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Technically summoning the shardblade would be a kind of soulstamping.

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2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Of course, it could theoratically be a complicating factor that Sel's magic is so location-based.

Though I guess you could bring the Shardblade to Sel.

That is, if you safely get there and back, considering there's a bit of an Investiture overload in the Cognitive Realm around there.

You still run into the problem of stamping an invested object, WOB says there is relatively little investiture going on in soulstamps so it would probably still fail. 

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1 minute ago, ScavellTane said:

But shardblades aren't invested objects, its investiture. Right?

If it's pure Investiture, that's not gonna make it easier to Invest in them...

To use non-Cosmere terms, the more magic is inside, the harder it is to cram additional magic in.

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2 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

But shardblades aren't invested objects, its investiture. Right?

Yes, but you should still get the interference

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