[OB] Shallan's Transformation Magic

[Leyrann]

12 minutes ago, Alderant said:

This confuses me a little bit. What do you mean?

It's kinda hard to explain, but I'll try. I'm actually giving a bit of a taste of the theory.

The base of the theory is L-Theory, which posits a string theory-based Cosmere. The particles in the Physical Realm are an endpoint of snares; as with standard string theory. Meanwhile, the Spiritual Realm is made up of the other endpoints of the string, and the Cognitive Realm is made up of the strings themselves. In each of the three Realms, particles/strings relate to one another in a different way, which can be visualized as distance (though I actually got on track of this theory by a WoB specifically saying that there is no distance in the Spiritual Realm): The Spiritual Realm relates it's particles through Connection, the Cognitive Realm relates it's particles through Identity, and the Physical Realm relates it's particles through Energy (the energy required to cross the distance between the particles, to be precise). Now, Energy contains the information about the distance between particles and Connection contains information about the particles it interacts with. Identity is the combination of those; it contains both the information about the distance to other particles and the information about the particles it interacts with. If you were to change something in the Physical Realm (or Spiritual Realm, for that matter), that would mean that Identity would change as well. Now, consciousness doesn't come into this equation, but it's basically a complicating factor that can force Identity to be different from what it's supposed to be, which I will also address in my theory.

EDIT: Oh, and I'll give you a link once it's ready. Will also add it to my signature, by the way.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Leyrann

[Alderant]

16 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Words of Brandon on the subject seem pretty definitive.

The only thing I see definitive from that quote is that magic is involved, somehow, and that it's something we've seen before, but not soulstamping. Brandon even explicitly states its not like a soulstamp, so what’s going on isnt some “magical overwriting“ like the soulcasting idea  

I mostly agree with your theory this time. I really do! I promise!  

My point is just that those changes start in a perceptual place, from organic desires, not from a magical, abstract imposition. I very much agree that the process those changes are made could very much be magical, I just think that the source isnt.

16 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I think that your arguments were absolutely convincing and that your ideas on perception are crucial to this and instrumental in making the magic work which is why I was even cued into the Warbreker tie. 

Thank you for the praise! I work very hard to make sure my posts and arguments are well thought out. Glad I could lead you into a new idea!

EDIT: Had to make some changes because my phone FREAKED and reverted to an earlier version.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Alderant
My phone was wreaking havoc on the text editor

[Fifth of Daybreak]

35 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Thank you for the praise! I work very hard to make sure my posts and arguments are well thought out

Thanks for putting so much effort in. It shows. 

 

35 minutes ago, Alderant said:

My point is just that those changes start in a perceptual place, from organic desires, not from a magical, abstract imposition. I very much agree that the process those changes are made could very much be magical, I just think that the source isnt.

Oooo! I think we agree far more than we disagree at this point. I'm going to put the rest of my comments in a spoiler tag for heavy Warbreaker and Emperor's Soul discussion. @Leyrann , Emperor's Soul should be a priority for you if you're interested in identity. It's the focus of the story. 

Spoiler

I absolutely agree with that statement and I think that's the fundamental reason why the tie-in is Warbreaker and not Emperor's Soul. Like I said before, I think you hit the nail on the head. Without changed perception on the person where the change is taking place, the entire process is null and void. 

So in Emperor's Soul, it's, to steal your phrasing, an abstract imposition Shai. chooses a plausible transformation and imposes her will on the object, forcing the change. That could never work with this because It's not an external force working to create a change, but an internal perception change that normally would take time to enact but is happening much faster due to magic. Because of this, Shallan could never do what Shai did and Shai could never do what Shallan does. Shallan would need the Emperor to perceive himself as a whole, healed, fully functional person, whereas Shai would need to rewrite that entire person's history and change everything about them in order to achieve similar effects. 

 

 

1

I also think because of this that Shallan was not actually the one enacting the changes on the deserters, but rather, she made them into squires and gave them the ability to do it to themselves, as she can't be an external force imposing this change, it has to come from an internal impetus to perceive yourself differently then make that change a reality. So she shows Bluth the picture originally and plants the seed, and her continued efforts to exude confidence and power attract Bluth, who eventually becomes recruited and a squire like Bridge Four. Later, he steals the picture and starts to actually believe that's who he could be, at least with someone like Shallan leading him instead of Tyvlotsofsylables, and the changed perception combined with Shallan allowing him to access soulcasting investiture speeds up that organic change a hundred fold. 

Your argument about magic not being the reason for everything is excellent, and has been thematically explored throughout the story. Kaladin isn't a super spearman because magic, he's an excellent spearman with idealism and that attracted the magic spren. Shallan can't inspire others to change and become better because of magic, but her ability to adapt and change herself and inspire the same in others attracted the spren who was interested in that sort of thing and who could augment the abilities. 

So unless I'm not fully understanding what you're saying, I think we see eye to eye. Shallan wouldn't have been able to do this to Sadeas, as Sadeas thinks of himself as the prime Sadeas already. He's the best highprince there is, so there's no way to get him to perceive himself as something better, therefore no way to 'soulcast' him into a better version of himself. Without his own internal view of what he can become and a perception that he's already becoming it, she would only be able to traditionally soulcast him. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Alderant]

Sorry for the double post, but @Leyrann's post came in just after I hit "submit".

Interesting! I'm not very knowledgeable about quantum physics (it kind of makes my head spin), but I will definitely look at it. Let me see if I understand your point, then:

So you're basically saying that unless a cognition is actively telling an Identity to do something, the Identity reverts to what is "normal"?

36 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So unlike Soulcasting the effect is not permanent and when the Stormlight runs out or the magic is dispelled then both effects drop at the same time.

So...I can subscribe to the idea that the surges are at work and combining in a weird way to produce more realistic personas, but if the surges were all that were responsible for what is going on (which is what I keep seeing emphasized, Shallan is changing people through "transformation"), then Shallan should not be experiencing a mental crisis. All of these things should be temporary and have no lasting effects. Also, the change on the deserters (if it happened) should have ended the moment her stormlight ran out, and they should have gone back to being antagonistic. But they didn't.

My point is that the foundation, the source of the changes is not the magic system. These men wanted to change. This is reflected quite clearly in their dialogue. Yes, there may have been some magical augmentation to the situation that aided in the result, but what keeps getting described results in the aforementioned problem with the Stick in WoR. The magic system alone cannot affect a change on an object that doesn't want to change. The boat did not change until Shallan convinced it to. The Stick would not, maybe even could not, change. If what has been proposed holds true, then the stick should have become fire simply because Shallan wanted it to, and she had the stormlight to do so.

I can't subscribe to the idea that Shallan's usage of stormlight in the case of the deserters caused a change in them without them wanting to change first. The same holds true with Shallan--she wants to change who she is. Who she is normally causes a lot of pain, so she is creating and fleeing to these personas in order to avoid it. This isn't some unknown magical ability suddenly imposing a separate personality on her, this is Shallan seeking to avoid her problems and utilizing her abilities to make a lie that's believable even to herself. The magic system is the method, not the problem.

And yes, Pattern frequently talks in metaphors and figurative speech, and we know from Kaladin's conversations with Syl that spren look at the physical world differently than we do. But that's a tangent.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

@Alderant 99.99% sure we see eye to eye after the other post now.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

@Alderant 99.99% sure we see eye to eye after the other post now.

Agreed. Amazing how that works! It's also what @Gigalemesh was referencing when he was talking about Shallan going crazy, I think.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Just now, Alderant said:

Agreed. Amazing how that works! It's also what @Gigalemesh was referencing when he was talking about Shallan going crazy, I think.

Now I just have to decide if I should ask him about this at the Chicago signing. 

[Leyrann]

9 minutes ago, Alderant said:

So you're basically saying that unless a cognition is actively telling an Identity to do something, the Identity reverts to what is "normal"?

That's a much better summary than I'd have been able to give.

Also, I think I'm almost done. Just gotta finish up explaining how all Investiture (in the Metallic Arts and Surgebinding) is related to the different Realms and then polish the post a bit and then it's good to go. Hope I can finish it this evening without being dead tomorrow.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Now I just have to decide if I should ask him about this at the Chicago signing. 

Do it. And then let me know what he says, lol. (Probably an RAFO). Chicago's wayyy too far away for me to get there and he never comes near where I live (I drove 2 hours to meet him for a BoM signing, and it was the closest one by a looong shot.

Just now, Leyrann said:

That's a much better summary than I'd have been able to give.

It  helps to be the one interpreting, rather than the one explaining....

And cool! Looking forward to it!

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Do it. And then let me know what he says, lol. (Probably an RAFO). Chicago's wayyy too far away for me to get there and he never comes near where I live (I drove 2 hours to meet him for a BoM signing, and it was the closest one by a looong shot.

It  helps to be the one interpreting, rather than the one explaining....

And cool! Looking forward to it!

The Anderson bookshop outside Chicago is about two and a half from me, but I'm pretty used to long drives. I'm a paramedic, and Chicago is actually one of the closer big cities we take patients to on a regular basis. I work for a private service and we do a lot of transfers between hospitals, and I work 24 hour shifts, so doing 5 hours in a car in one day is like a piece of cake for me haha. That's something I could do in a single sitting at work and still have 19 hours left in my shift. 

[Alderant]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

The Anderson bookshop outside Chicago is about two and a half from me, but I'm pretty used to long drives. I'm a paramedic, and Chicago is actually one of the closer big cities we take patients to on a regular basis. I work for a private service and we do a lot of transfers between hospitals, and I work 24 hour shifts, so doing 5 hours in a car in one day is like a piece of cake for me haha. That's something I could do in a single sitting at work and still have 19 hours left in my shift. 

I do not envy that...the only time I take long drives is to visit family, or on family vacations, or to visit the temple...Longest I usually drive is 30 min. away.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I do not envy that...the only time I take long drives is to visit family, or on family vacations, or to visit the temple...Longest I usually drive is 30 min. away.

Sometimes I get paid overtime to sleep so it evens out haha.

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

So...I can subscribe to the idea that the surges are at work and combining in a weird way to produce more realistic personas, but if the surges were all that were responsible for what is going on (which is what I keep seeing emphasized, Shallan is changing people through "transformation"), then Shallan should not be experiencing a mental crisis. All of these things should be temporary and have no lasting effects. Also, the change on the deserters (if it happened) should have ended the moment her stormlight ran out, and they should have gone back to being antagonistic. But they didn't.

My point is that the foundation, the source of the changes is not the magic system. These men wanted to change. This is reflected quite clearly in their dialogue. Yes, there may have been some magical augmentation to the situation that aided in the result, but what keeps getting described results in the aforementioned problem with the Stick in WoR. The magic system alone cannot affect a change on an object that doesn't want to change. The boat did not change until Shallan convinced it to. The Stick would not, maybe even could not, change. If what has been proposed holds true, then the stick should have become fire simply because Shallan wanted it to, and she had the stormlight to do so.

I can't subscribe to the idea that Shallan's usage of stormlight in the case of the deserters caused a change in them without them wanting to change first. The same holds true with Shallan--she wants to change who she is. Who she is normally causes a lot of pain, so she is creating and fleeing to these personas in order to avoid it. This isn't some unknown magical ability suddenly imposing a separate personality on her, this is Shallan seeking to avoid her problems and utilizing her abilities to make a lie that's believable even to herself. The magic system is the method, not the problem.

And yes, Pattern frequently talks in metaphors and figurative speech, and we know from Kaladin's conversations with Syl that spren look at the physical world differently than we do. But that's a tangent.

When I said that the two Surges combined and dropped together I was only thinking about Shallan's personas.

I agree that she is not forcing change upon the deserters - not all the deserters converted after all. She nudged them, you could say. Exactly how that all worked I don't know. Maybe it's more like emotional Allomancy in terms of the results though not necessarily the details. Maybe she made them more open to change, allowing her message to get though?

btw, have you read the special Jasnah chapter where we see what happened to her after she was stabbed? She could force things to be Soulcast, though that might only work for simpler things.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

So I have to reconsider and say I'm wrong and this might just be a Lightweaving ability alone and not a mix of the surges together.

Quote

Renarin looked to him, then smiled. A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.

Chapter 10

 

[Alderant]

@Fifth of Daybreak

At least you have the courtesy to admit it!

On 10/31/2017 at 6:44 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

btw, have you read the special Jasnah chapter where we see what happened to her after she was stabbed? She could force things to be Soulcast, though that might only work for simpler things.

Yes, I have, but not in a long time. Is this legitimately forcing, however? Jasnah has a very determined and strong will--and is much more practiced with Soulcasting than Shallan. Note the language here: 

Quote

“I am a rope,” one of them said. “I am—”

“You will change.”

The ropes shivered, transforming—one by one—into smoke in the physical realm.

She says "you will change". And the rope changes, which tells me that, though her methods were forceful, she still had to convince the rope to change before it became smoke. She couldn't just force feed it stormlight and make it change, or she wouldn't have bothered with the tiny argument she had with the rope.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

17 minutes ago, Alderant said:

At least you have the courtesy to admit it!

Having the right answer is far more important to me than being right!

Edited November 2, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Alderant]

29 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Having the right answer is far more important to me than being right!

I can get behind that!

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

She says "you will change". And the rope changes, which tells me that, though her methods were forceful, she still had to convince the rope to change before it became smoke. She couldn't just force feed it stormlight and make it change, or she wouldn't have bothered with the tiny argument she had with the rope.

I actually think that the 'talking' is actually the force feeding Stormlight, or maybe just makes it easier because we know that perception matters. The resisting and being forced to does fit with those two theories in my signature, and is actually mentioned in L-Theory.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Leyrann

[MonsterMetroid]

Kind of bummed I wasn't the first to post a topic about this. but hey it means I don't have to do all the typing at least!

They were a couple other instances of Shallan transforming people that weren't mentioned that I would like to point out.

The biggest one is when Shallan is handing Eylita note to Balat it is mentioned that it seemed to "Glow". Right afterwards the goodness that shallan perceives in Balat takes its first step of coming out, He leaves the Axehound fight and goes to see her. We could also say simliar things might have happened with the other two brothers changes.

The other situations are theories

Kabsal stands out to me as a possible candidate of being affected by her powers. I need to reread that part but it always seemed off to me that an assassin would change so rapidly.

Here is a dark one: I think Shallan might have some to do with Lin Davars personality change. The reason I say this is that in one of the earlier flashbacks when Balat says that father killed her mother Shallan says something along the lines of "No he didn't do it" but then thinks in her head wait did he? After that Shallan doesnt object again when people say that he killed mother, she doesnt want to think about that she killed her, The easiest way for her to not believe that she killed her mom is too believe what everyone else is saying that "Lin devar is a crazed maniac that murdered his wife". Shallan also expects that Lin will try to kill Malise, that he will beat servants, and many other acts of violence that shallan seems to know will happen before he does almost. This is just my theory but I think Lin might have been formed by shallans coping mechanism a bit.

I am interested to see if Jasnah might have been affected by the drawing of herself that she kept so I am going to be watching for that.

Anyways awesome job with the layout Sorry I didnt get the exact excerpts from the book partts that I talked about. If I am feeling motivated I will get them once i get home.

[MonsterMetroid]

 

On 11/2/2017 at 6:43 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

So I have to reconsider and say I'm wrong and this might just be a Lightweaving ability alone and not a mix of the surges together.

 

I'm actually not convinced you are wrong still. we know Renarin is a truth watcher renarin could be helping Adolin see what Adolin wants to change into. Shallan is changing people to her perception. A push and a pull per say.

[alercah]

I think it's important to remember that you don't need magic to be able to have multiple identities. Forming multiple personas is a common response to trauma or other emotional stimuli, and Shallan's plurality is, by the scale of traumatic plurality, fairly mild. Her experience fairly closely matches my own (non-traumatic).

While Lightweaving is probably playing a part in her development of the personas, it's clear to me, especially in the later chapters of OB, that fundamentally these three aspects of her are just a part of her. They aren't dependent on Stormlight or the Nahel bond or anything else other than Shallan's own conceptions of herself.

[Shadowmancer]

Well now we know from the EPIC FIGHT SCENE that yes, indeed, Lightweaving and Soulcasting can be combined in a unique manner to create something more than an illusory army. Wow.