[OB] Oathbringer chapters 28-30

[hoser]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I did say it would mess with it, rather than disprove it.

In the spirit of being pedantic:

---

And to the both of you, I realized later on that afternoon that the entry isn't as definitive as I first thought. Too many variables left uncertain. Have a short list of the things we don't know:

• Why it's fixed
• Who/What fixed it
• When it became fixed
• If it's permanently fixed
• If it being fixed is tied to something else being fixed
• etc..

Interesting.  Since the Unmade seem unique, I have been assuming that they were based on aspects of Odium.  

In general, I think Odium wants to minimize nonrecyclable use of Investiture.  

I further assume, based on the name "Unmade," that Odium invested existing creatures that subsequently lost physicality.  

Don't we know that some were once listeners?

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, hoser said:

Don't we know that some were once listeners?

That's an urban legend from Parshendi culture. I will note that "those ancient" does not necessarily mean Listeners(it most likely does, but technicalities abound)

Quote

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.”

Rlain mentions them as such, but even disregarding the fact that in-world characters are wrong about a lot of things, that's hardly any different from someone on Earth saying that the souls of people like MLK JR or Mother Teresa would become Angels in the afterlife.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure there's been more than just 9 people who "gave of themselves to destroy" over the millennia.

---

2 minutes ago, hoser said:

Since the Unmade seem unique, I have been assuming that they were based on aspects of Odium. 

I have too, but in the spirit of technicality, even if one is made when something not directly related to Odium(like a Herald breaking) happens doesn't mean that they aren't related to aspects of him anyway. They are Splinters of Odium, after all.

4 minutes ago, hoser said:

I further assume, based on the name "Unmade," that Odium invested existing creatures that subsequently lost physicality.  

That's another idea that's gotten some popularity recently. I still have my reservations about it, but to each their own.

[hoser]

16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

That's an urban legend from Parshendi culture. I will note that "those ancient" does not necessarily mean Listeners(it most likely does, but technicalities abound)

Rlain mentions them as such, but even disregarding the fact that in-world characters are wrong about a lot of things, that's hardly any different from someone on Earth saying that the souls of people like MLK JR or Mother Teresa would become Angels in the afterlife.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure there's been more than just 9 people who "gave of themselves to destroy" over the millennia.

---

I have too, but in the spirit of technicality, even if one is made when something not directly related to Odium(like a Herald breaking) happens doesn't mean that they aren't related to aspects of him anyway. They are Splinters of Odium, after all.

That's another idea that's gotten some popularity recently. I still have my reservations about it, but to each their own.

Sure, sure.  Important distinctions.  We really only know WoB, in-world legends are possibly warped, distorted or worse.  It having been a few years since I really thought about this, I wrote loosely. 

I can't speak for recent popularity of the lost aspects of the Unmade, but it seemed obvious to me all along and that is years.  It makes sense to me when I think about Odium, that he would warp or corrupt things, that he isn't creative or inclined to supplement things, so where he giveth, he would take away. 

[Fulminato]

On 4/11/2017 at 8:06 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I felt that the mass stockpile of gemstones was powering Re-Shephir's prison, preventing her from getting out. Stormlight drains eventually, and even though gems in Urithiru seem to drain slower, the Recreance was at least 2200 years ago, with Re-Shephir's imprisonment either at that time or even earlier. It seems reasonable that as the gems finally emptied, she was able to roam more freely.

this can be an answer, but don't feel right to me. if the pillar was [one of] the key element of the 'cage' was way more safe destroy that pillar and scatter the gemstone far away from the place, another (little) element is the fact of re-shephir actualy fear shallan here and now, if the imprisonement needed a huge amount of stormlight and she block the access of the pillars don't think she reacted in this fashion.

the pillar is a important element for the tower and it's correct working. the mosaic and the (ruined) library point to a important function of the tower and the order. the place was well hidden so the 'common people' living in urithitru don't know its existence or purpose

5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I did say it would mess with it, rather than disprove it.

In the spirit of being pedantic:

---

And to the both of you, I realized later on that afternoon that the entry isn't as definitive as I first thought. Too many variables left uncertain. Have a short list of the things we don't know:

• Why it's fixed
• Who/What fixed it
• When it became fixed
• If it's permanently fixed
• If it being fixed is tied to something else being fixed
• etc..

the 'spren' (sliver of investiture gained sentience) are specific of roshar (planet or system, i don't know), even before the shattering (the listener need the spren to take form and them predate the coming of honor and cultivation), and odium after take the shard don't follow immediately H&C, but he arrived in the roshar system some time later. so i don't think the unmade predate odium arriving on roshar.

the desolations bind odium in this system, i don't know how tavanast build the whole thing (heralds, torture, oathpact, desolation, voidbringer, etc...), but this required some acceptation by odium (honor in one of the vision talk of the rule all the shardholder must follow). and i think the unmade are an offspring of the whole thing.

 

(ok, my english is awuful, but i hope can be undestandable)

Edited November 6, 2017 by Fulminato

[The One Who Connects]

12 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

so i don't think the unmade predate odium arriving on roshar.

I don't think they do either, but the Unmade are Splinters, which are not planet specific. It's entirely possible that he made the Unmade somewhere else and they came with him. (Unlikely, but possible) Spren are difficult to get off of Roshar, but not impossible, so it could happen to the Unmade.

15 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

and i think the unmade are an offspring of the whole thing.

I think they are a product of Odium being trapped on Roshar, but as a decision by him rather than something forced on him.

• Re-Shephir was ordered to cause chaos and confusion.
• Nergaoul and the Thrill gets men fighting each other to the death, rather than surrendering, giving mankind less people in a coming Desolation.
• Yelig-Nar killed scribes and wordsmen, limiting avenues of communication.
• Moelach and the Death Rattles have been theorized as a form of information gathering for Odium.
• Sja-Anat corrupts Spren, which has all manner of ramifications.
• Dai-Gonarthis has something about consuming sorrow, which is a little more nebulous. Regret is a synonym of Sorrow, and if humanity doesn't feel regret for their actions, that could cause a lot more bad things to happen. (Desolation is also a synonym of Sorrow.. intriguing)

These all seem like things that would help Odium in a coming Desolation. I've always had the impression that the Unmade were made for the purpose of destabilizing men, in the same vein as the Heralds unifying men.

40 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

re-shephir actually fear shallan here and now, if the imprisonment needed a huge amount of stormlight and she block the access of the pillars don't think she reacted in this fashion.

Re-Shephir recognizes her as a Lightweaver through similarities to what imprisoned her way back when. Re-Shephir doesn't understand everything, so the connection to the mass amount of stormlight might not have been made. Fear messes with rational thought too. I'm moving away from the idea that the pillar was part of her prison on my own, but just because the pillar still exists and she feared Shallan doesn't feel like enough evidence against it.

[Fulminato]

41 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

1) I don't think they do either, but the Unmade are Splinters, which are not planet specific. It's entirely possible that he made the Unmade somewhere else and they came with him. (Unlikely, but possible) Spren are difficult to get off of Roshar, but not impossible, so it could happen to the Unmade.

I think they are a product of Odium being trapped on Roshar, but as a decision by him rather than something forced on him.

• Re-Shephir was ordered to cause chaos and confusion.
• Nergaoul and the Thrill gets men fighting each other to the death, rather than surrendering, giving mankind less people in a coming Desolation.
• Yelig-Nar killed scribes and wordsmen, limiting avenues of communication.
• Moelach and the Death Rattles have been theorized as a form of information gathering for Odium.
• Sja-Anat corrupts Spren, which has all manner of ramifications.
• Dai-Gonarthis has something about consuming sorrow, which is a little more nebulous. Regret is a synonym of Sorrow, and if humanity doesn't feel regret for their actions, that could cause a lot more bad things to happen. (Desolation is also a synonym of Sorrow.. intriguing)

These all seem like things that would help Odium in a coming Desolation. I've always had the impression that the Unmade were made for the purpose of destabilizing men, in the same vein as the Heralds unifying men.

2) Re-Shephir recognizes her as a Lightweaver through similarities to what imprisoned her way back when. Re-Shephir doesn't understand everything, so the connection to the mass amount of stormlight might not have been made. Fear messes with rational thought too. I'm moving away from the idea that the pillar was part of her prison on my own, but just because the pillar still exists and she feared Shallan doesn't feel like enough evidence against it.

1) i don't think odium was forced, but an willing element in the creation of the oathpact, like the commited of the heralds. if this is true put the unmade long before the KR.

2) not all the unmade are sapient, but re-shephir show curiosity, so she isn't totaly mindless. some comprehension of the imprisoning and the prison would be expected. i think was used a dawnshard.

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Fulminato said:

some comprehension of the imprisoning and the prison would be expected.

She recognized "Lightweaver" and had that associated with last time it happened. That's a bit of comprehension. I don't necessarily think Re-Shephir has to understand anything else about how she was imprisoned. She could always understand more, but I don't think it's a given that she does.

Her hasty retreat from Shallan could merely be trauma, or a sign that the original imprisoning happened quickly, before Re-Shephir could comprehend/react to what was happening. She could have been captured elsewhere and brought there to be put in a more permanent cell, and then it'd be up to how aware Re-Shephir could be while trapped. The gems could power some type of barrier elsewhere in the room. Without an understanding of electric lines, I'm not sure how easily one could make the connection between the battery and the product.

7 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

put the unmade long before the KR.

I've always thought the Unmade were older than the KR too, so that's another agreement.

[gbazz4]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:49 AM, Calderis said:

Haven't had time to read everything but anyone notice how Shallan tapped into her hate to fight? 

I saw that too. I am a little concerned by this, wouldn't this open her up to some of Odium's influence? Or am i just channeling the star wars universe here and how hate opens you up to the dark side of the force?

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, gbazz4 said:

I saw that too. I am a little concerned by this, wouldn't this open her up to some of Odium's influence? Or am i just channeling the star wars universe here and how hate opens you up to the dark side of the force?

the windrunner's third oath (kaladin version) "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." 

"And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power [...] They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it" (WoR Chapter 36 ephygrap)

the "hate" is a human emotion, and the KR are human (even the stormfather tell to dalinar to don't idealize to much the ancient KR).

they don't be 'ruled' by hate.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Fulminato

[JoyBlu]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:43 AM, PunSpren said:

Exciting Times ! any thoughts on what the large blue disc could be ?

My initial thought was the moon, but after reading all the comments, I’m going with Shardpool for world-hopping.  

I just finished reading all 22 pages of comments. (Took me an entire week) but  I just loved what everyone had to say. Such thoughtful remarks that really opened my eyes, and in a few instances my heart too. Thanks for all the comments.  Here a responses to a few that I had quoted. I ran out of upvotes every single day. 

On 10/31/2017 at 7:57 AM, What's a Seawolf? said:

"The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?"

The latter two are Honor and Cultivation, do we know who the bolded segment is supposed to represent?

It reminds me a little of the Ishar art that was released, actually.  Obviously he's not hovering, but does have arms outstretched before a 'blue disk.'

But my guess would be Adolansium, or even Odium.

I don’t think there was a concensus on this. 

On 10/31/2017 at 8:56 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

An interesting thought...

All or most of the books have decayed, unsurprisingly. How well paper lasts depends upon a lot of factors but it's rare for it preserve well across 1500 years, or however long it has been since the tower was abandoned.

So anyway... books should have a spren / cognitive part. They should "remember" what they were. Maybe they can be restored with Soulcasting?

I loved this idea — along with the regrowth comments  that followed it. If Renarian could bring the books “back to life” that would be awesome. Once Jasnah gets to Urithiru she will be able to see this place. I want Jasnah’s POV of the library. I also wonder if there are any inscriptions on those steel metal doors. 

On 10/31/2017 at 11:10 AM, HoidsRock said:

Wow!  What great chapters!  Initial thoughts:

I am in the camp that Shallan and Renarin sense the unmade because of illumination.  Why does Mraize sense it? His aviar?

 

What????? The green chicken is an Aviar? As from the Sixth of Dusk??? I guess that would make sense. When I told this to my son, he shrugged and said, I doubt it because it’s practically impossible to world hop from the Drominad system. If it is an Aviar then what is it’s ability? I’ll be watching that green chicken. 

 

On 10/31/2017 at 1:12 PM, Pagerunner said:

Agree that it is not the Oilsworn drawing of Ishar, for the reasons you suggested and because the piece is only several hundred years old in-universe. The blue disc mural displays shocking similarities to one found in Elantris, with many key details (floating in air, arms outstretched) the same between the two. That one was a depiction of worldhopping; I think this one is, as well.

I never saw a direct quote from Elantris of the mural. I don’t own the kindle edition of Elantris so it’s hard to find. Does anyone else have a page number of the mural description?

 

On 10/31/2017 at 8:27 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Well, I did theorize a few weeks ago that if we are looking at Blades, not characters, Oathbringer was most likely to be revived.

If Amaram has any sense he’d offer the Blade to Dalinar as recompense to Kalladin. Publicly, before other lighteyes. 

 

 

What a twist that would be! Amaram openly apologizing — publicly — to Kaladin. Then Dalinar would accept Amaram and Kaladin would have more reason to be depressed. But it would set the stage for Oathbringer the sword to revive the spren that originally created it. 

On 10/31/2017 at 4:06 PM, hoser said:

Stoneward unmade?  Thunderclasts are made of stone, so maybe like a stoneward midnight essence?  In chapter 4 of WoR they seem to arise from a large thing that looks like a spren to Dalinar. 

I was thinking the same thing . . . . 

 

On 10/31/2017 at 4:54 PM, ParadoxicalZen said:

 

I wonder if we'll ever get a scene with Dalinar on the roof talking to the Stormfather and Taravangian makes an appearance, would be fascinating to see if the Stormfather makes a comment on Mr T bearing the Nightwatcher's touch. Kinda hoping he bonds the Nightwatcher but we'll see. Glad Renarin is coming into his own and out of his shell more.

 

 

Both Dalinar & Taravangian “bare the night - watchers touch”. But yes — would be fascinating. 

On 11/1/2017 at 10:59 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

It seems counter-intuitive until you grow one out. Back when I kept it short I would consider it just a mustache, now mustaches make sense to me. 

@Fifth of Daybreak you made me laugh! I think you should grow all your scruff out and dress up as Kaladin when he hadn’t shaved and met his parents & Laral for the first time in years. 

On 11/1/2017 at 6:52 PM, ethan_sedai said:

those metal doors on the library... they hadn't rusted, even though so many other things in the tower had. also, why would the doors to a library need to be metal? I think these doors are aluminum!

anybody else think this? anybody freaking out like I am at the Implications of Aluminum doors on the library?

It was specificity stated that they were steel and Adolin used his shardblade to open them. (But if they had some type of inscription on them) (or if they had aluminum centers and were only coated in steel). 

On 11/1/2017 at 7:10 PM, StormingTexan said:

Didn’t Adolin cut through them though? I thought a sharblade couldn’t cut through aluminum or at least Brandon hasn’t confirmed it can and dodged the question. 

So Brandon picked aluminum on purpose right? Because of aluminum hats and crazy people? 

Ha ha ha! Hadn’t thought of that before. 

On 11/1/2017 at 8:30 PM, StormingTexan said:

I’m not touching the morality debate with a 10 foot stick but I did want to applaud all of those debating it in such a respectful manner. 

So i read every single post, including the hidden definitions and I have to say it was enlightening to read all the respectful viewpoints. So often with my friends in real life we “agree to disagree” and don’t delve into deep discussions. I was raised in a religious home and I am now raising my family in the same religion because I love it and believe it fervently . However a few years ago my brother left our religion and lives a very different life than the rest of us. The balance between religion/morality/legality has been on my mind and I feel that I gained much understanding in reading all the posts. As a member of the same Christian church as Brandon Sanderson, I especially like that it was pointed out that the Cosmere takes place on planets other than earth, and that Christians believe that Jesus Christ was central to the “plan” for the earth and its inhabitants. I often find parallels in his writing with gospel principles and this adds a new layer to think about when referencing my religion when I’m reading his books. 

On 11/2/2017 at 3:53 PM, StormingTexan said:

On another note I saw Brandon's tweet that Oathbringer has the most audible pre-orders in history. I guess there are a lot more rabid fans out there. Can't wait to see what other records it breaks. 

So I love to read the books —my son & I devour them, my daughter reads them just so she can discuss them with us, my husband tolerates the books and only listens to them. We have pre-ordered all 3 versions of Oathbringer (audible, kindle, print). We got a Nov email from Audible a few days ago and it had the heading “The November books we’re most excited about”. I looked to see if Oathbringer was on the email list and it was not. I was kinda bummed. But then I saw your post and it made me happy! Yay for Oathbringer! 

On 11/2/2017 at 4:00 PM, mariapapadia said:

the only motivation I have to start eating greens and hitting the gym 

I’ll take it! Bring on the oatmeal & green smoothies!

On 11/2/2017 at 5:44 PM, Storyspren said:

I'm so suspicious of the stormfather possibly not being on the same side as syl and pattern. (Assuming they are on the same side, which I'm not convinced of either).

We will all have to build a convalescent home near wherever Brandon lives and as fans acquire terminal illnesses or otherwise near end of life, they can go live there for ease of pleading and deathbed charity information sharing. Obviously there will have to be a staff of not only doctors and nurses, but a military style internet police dedicated to making sure there are no unauthorized info leaks. 

Interesting thought about Syl & Glys & Pattern not being on the same side as SF. Something to think about indeed. I just assumed he was on a different level or much more mature than they were. 

On 11/2/2017 at 11:19 PM, Harry the Heir said:

He's now married to the woman he always loved. In a sense, Dalinar's been getting off easy. 

 

So I know that Dalinar has always lusted after Navani.  But I really wonder if he started loving Evi at one point. I really want to believe that he did. But as he realizes this — he will remember not so good things about Navani. If I recall correctly — Navani said to Dalinar that she believed Dalinar truly loved Evi. 

23 hours ago, Pattern said:

Thank you for your explanations. I am looking forward to the art in Oathbringer, perhaps you get some material to work on (I am thinking of a black spiralling vortex into the void or some weird images of horses...).
As @SLNC wrote, it might not be fitting to compare our own known mental illnesses to those in the cosmere, but it is a good basis for discussion and I find it very insightful. I like to learn interesting stuff, even if it is from discussing literature.

 

Truly insightful. A very helpful discussion for me to follow. I recommended WoK to a close friend. — mostly because i wanted to discuss WoR with her. She thought WoK was a well written book but Kaladin reminded her too much of herself — the depressed part of herself that she didn’t want to be reminded of so she made the “healthy” for her decision not to keep reading about Kaladin. (And she hasn’t read WoR). As I discuss these characters with my real life family & friends, and as I listen to how you guys see the character development, I really do grow as a person. Thanks again to everyone for sharing their thoughts! And to Mr Brandon Sanderson for writing such intriguing, multi-dimensional characters with interesting lives & circumstances. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by JoyBlu

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

(Took me an entire week)

Rookie.

10 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

The green chicken is an Aviar? As from the Sixth of Dusk???

It's a theory, nothing more. We don't actually know, but your son's instincts are pretty good. There's also timeline things, but that's best left in the discussion about the bird.

10 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

Both Dalinar & Taravangian “bare the night - watchers touch”. But yes — would be fascinating. 

I think they brought it up because Dalinar doesn't know Taravangian visited the Nightwatcher. Mr T is using an imaginary "affliction" as a cover for the effects of his boon/bane.

[Ethan_sedai]

On 11/1/2017 at 7:10 PM, StormingTexan said:

Didn’t Adolin cut through them though? I thought a sharblade couldn’t cut through aluminum or at least Brandon hasn’t confirmed it can and dodged the question

I'm pretty sure it can't, because things can be soulcast into aluminum, so instead of Shardplate, people could just buy aluminum armor to block a Shardblade. If Shardblades couldn't cut through aluminum, I think we would have heard about aluminum armor.

[StormingTexan]

25 minutes ago, ethan_sedai said:

I'm pretty sure it can't, because things can be soulcast into aluminum, so instead of Shardplate, people could just buy aluminum armor to block a Shardblade. If Shardblades couldn't cut through aluminum, I think we would have heard about aluminum armor.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I may be remembering this incorrectly but I thought there was a WoP saying something like a shard blade could cut aluminum but it has to be thin enough that a normal sword could cut through it. Then Brandon specifically dodged or RAFO the question. Of course I could be completely making this up. 

 

Edit: ok I’m completely making this up because I found a WoB that specifically says a shardblade can cut aluminum. 

WAYNESPREN

Can Shardblades cut aluminum?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Well-um-yes, yes they can."

 

 

I also found one answering my question about tin foil hats! 

QUESTION

Which I did catch was very entertaining to see like that [regarding the Aluminum Hats].

BRANDON SANDERSON

I built aluminum to do all sorts of funky things to all the powers, and I actually hadn’t made the connection of tinfoil hats until after I’d built it in, and I was writing it in Alloy of Law, years after I built it in, saying “Wait a minute! I just put tinfoil hats in the book!” (laughter) So I actually built that without thinking that there would be a joke to that.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by StormingTexan

[The One Who Connects]

20 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Edit: ok I’m completely making this up because I found a WoB that specifically says a shardblade can cut aluminum. 

Have a flow chart of the subject:

---

From Brandon(Oct 10, 2015):

Quote

WayneSpren

Can Shardblades cut aluminum?"

Brandon Sanderson

"Well-um-yes, yes they can."

From Brandon(Feb 1, 2017):

Quote

Bridge4AM: What would happen if you tried to cut aluminum with a shardblade and as a follow-up how significant is it that Nightblood has a metal sheath?

Brandon: It is significant, and a shardblade would not cut aluminum.

From Brandon(Feb 3, 2017):

Quote

Yata:  Hi, the Community has a doubt, We have two WoB: Shardblades cut Aluminum, Shardblades can't cut it. Which one is true one?

Brandon:  Hm. Yes, I wondered last night if I'd ever answered this before. Truth is, the answer is contentious at Team Sanderson.
Brandon:  I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon.
Brandon:  Problem with magic like I do is sometimes you have to wait for the scientific consensus... Err on "no" for now

From Peter(February 6, 2017):

Quote

Peter:  Oh, I think Aluminum would stop Shardblades from magical cutting. But if it's too thin like foil, a sword...

---

The status of the subject is still very much up for debate, and will likely remain that way until Brandon puts Shardblade vs Aluminum into a book.

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Have a flow chart of the subject:

---

From Brandon(Oct 10, 2015):

From Brandon(Feb 1, 2017):

From Brandon(Feb 3, 2017):

From Peter(February 6, 2017):

---

The status of the subject is still very much up for debate, and will likely remain that way until Brandon puts Shardblade vs Aluminum into a book.

Ok thanks! This saves my sanity!