Malazan

[officiumdefunctorum]

11 hours ago, Ammanas said:

So I’ve mentioned before how much it kills me that I don’t like the Kharkanus books; to the point of which I have only read parts of Fall of Light. So I decided to try it again on a different format (audiobook). I’m over halfway through Forge and have a few random thoughts:

I really like the narrator; he remind me a lot of Peter Kenny. I am more interested in it but don’t know how much more I can take. Every time he starts one of his ponderous reflections my eyes might start to glaze but I’m exercising...so what else am I going to do (focus on) except in putting one foot in front of the other?

One thing the Esslemont books and the original 10 books do is balance tragedy with comedy or the serious with the absurd. These books are all dark all the time.

There is a Nietzsche quote about warning about staring into the dark pit in case you feel yourself staring out... These books are so dark, gloomy, dense, and ponderous I feel I am starting to descend into my own pit of madness and despair. Ok that’s a pit of a hyperbole but the point remains. Hopefully I can stick it out and at least finish Fall of Light.

Whether I give up or actually finish my next read will have to be Starsight or a Skyward relisten. I will need something light and cheerful to cleanse the pallet.

100% honesty, I did the 30 sec skip forward during the parts that were super philosophical and came back during the next POV. Really helpful.

Most of FoL is pretty neat, gets into the origin of Divers and there's this cool parallel with the Shake and what happens in Crippled God/Dust of Dreams.

[Zurvanight]

Hey I just started this series a few weeks ago and I really love it. Also I made a meme for you guys sorry for the poor quality I made it quick: 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Zurvanite

[Briar King]

What book are you on? You are aware there are 2 authors yes?

Im still chipping away on my reread which has slowed to a snails pace after RotCG slowed me up so much. Currently 300 pgs into Crippled God. Still planning to go straight to ICE’s remaining books then back to SE for Kark books. Ugh I’m like 4 months away from committing 3 YEARS to the series read.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Briar King

[Zurvanight]

39 minutes ago, Briar King said:

What book are you on? You are aware there are 2 authors yes?

Im still chipping away on my reread which has slowed to a snails pace after RotCG slowed me up so much. Currently 300 pgs into Crippled God. Still planning to go straight to ICE’s remaining books then back to SE for Kark books. Ugh I’m like 4 months away from committing 3 YEARS to the series read.

Still on the first, about halfway. Yeah I know there's two authors. I'm gonna read the main ten books first then work on the others if I like them well enough. I originally tried reading GotM multiple times but just couldn't get into it. It's very confusing at first but once I got to Darujhistan everything felt a bit easier to follow. Now I can't stop reading. 

[Briar King]

It only gets better for the most part. I love Malazan.

[Ammanas]

I’m about a third of a way through Fall of Light which is one of the longest audiobooks in my library clocking in a about 44 hours. I’m going to finish it.
 

At one point of this prequel trilogy I just embraced the endless monologues and thought streams and I find them almost relaxing now. I used to rail against them, but my thoughts and feelings now echo Hood in Fall of Light where he says, “I am now scoured of vengeance and made hollow like a bronze urn.” I still don’t think I would be able to read them but there’s almost something relaxing to the audiobook. If he wants to spend 20 minutes giving a parable about the slow death of a fishing village by starvation (and how the fish relatives return to the lake magically gains legs and goes on a revenge trip on other humans) I am now down with it.  A Dragons thoughts (also in Fall of Light) summarize the two books so far, “These words...these endless words” Hopefully he will one day return to this trilogy after the Karsa books. I still believe they are the least enjoyable of all of the malazan books and a towering monument of author hubris, but I see the mad genius of it and recognize it’s deserved place in malazan canon.

[Orlion Blight]

On 12/14/2019 at 7:29 AM, Ammanas said:

I’m about a third of a way through Fall of Light which is one of the longest audiobooks in my library clocking in a about 44 hours. I’m going to finish it.
 

At one point of this prequel trilogy I just embraced the endless monologues and thought streams and I find them almost relaxing now. I used to rail against them, but my thoughts and feelings now echo Hood in Fall of Light where he says, “I am now scoured of vengeance and made hollow like a bronze urn.” I still don’t think I would be able to read them but there’s almost something relaxing to the audiobook. If he wants to spend 20 minutes giving a parable about the slow death of a fishing village by starvation (and how the fish relatives return to the lake magically gains legs and goes on a revenge trip on other humans) I am now down with it.  A Dragons thoughts (also in Fall of Light) summarize the two books so far, “These words...these endless words” Hopefully he will one day return to this trilogy after the Karsa books. I still believe they are the least enjoyable of all of the malazan books and a towering monument of author hubris, but I see the mad genius of it and recognize it’s deserved place in malazan canon.

Author Hubris is Erikson's superhero identity

Hopefully he reigns it in a little, otherwise he might have a hard time selling books in the future! 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Talking about Malazan is the thing that usually breaks my long hiatus from the shard, such a good series!

On 12/14/2019 at 4:29 AM, Ammanas said:

“I am now scoured of vengeance and made hollow like a bronze urn.” I still don’t think I would be able to read them but there’s almost something relaxing to the audiobook. If he wants to spend 20 minutes giving a parable about the slow death of a fishing village by starvation (and how the fish relatives return to the lake magically gains legs and goes on a revenge trip on other humans) I am now down with it.  A Dragons thoughts (also in Fall of Light) summarize the two books so far, “These words...these endless words” Hopefully he will one day return to this trilogy after the Karsa books. I still believe they are the least enjoyable of all of the malazan books and a towering monument of author hubris, but I see the mad genius of it and recognize it’s deserved place in malazan canon.

Sounds like Udinas's wonderful parables from Reaper's Gale. The one that is like the old lady that swallows the fly about the Eels put into the lake to control the dangerous fish, that spirals out of control until they end up poisoning the lake is one of my favorite moments in all of Malazan. This makes me really excited to read Kharkanus!

On 12/20/2019 at 9:24 PM, Orlion the Platypus said:

Author Hubris is Erikson's superhero identity

Hopefully he reigns it in a little, otherwise he might have a hard time selling books in the future!

Pretentiousness is only pretentiousness if it doesn't end up working. Erickson goes for it, and for the most part he pulls it off. I much prefer the falling away into pretentiousness than the inability to go deep that I'm afraid Esselmont suffers from. I really like the Paths to Ascendancy books, but the depth of thought is just not there.
Totally just my opinion, and I am someone that pretty much everyone I've ever known says that I think too much (whatever that means).

Spoiler

 

Admittedly I am just finishing Toll of the Hounds, which I think is Erickson's best book. Formally, the structure is amazing, Kruppe's narrations are some of the best writing in all of Malazan, and the ending is so freaking amazing.

Really I am posting this because during my 2nd pass through of the Book of the Fallen, I've been reading/listening to it with an eye towards the release of the Witness Trilogy (which by checking on Amazon, I see that book 1 is slated for a November 9th, 2021 release).

In a different post I mentioned Felisin Paran's prophecy about Karsa (which I will update this post with), which was pretty cool. But an even better foreshadowing tidbit occurs in TotH, when Toc the Younger in one of his final acts as Hood's Herald comes into the cave where Picker's soul has been trapped, and he says the following:

"Find the Toblakai, find the killer, and remind him, remind him, do you understand me? And torc bearere, lead him to war".

I am pretty sure that by referring to Karsa as the killer, he's talking about his killing of Fener, but do you guys have any idea what else Picker specifically would be reminding Karsa about?

Interesting stuff to be sure, don't know about you all but I am getting really excited for the Witness Trilogy!

Edited January 6, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Ammanas]

18 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I am pretty sure that by referring to Karsa as the killer, he's talking about his killing of Fener, but do you guys have any idea what else Picker specifically would be reminding Karsa about?

That’s the only thing I can think of but perhaps Bill (from Tor has some thoughts) if you want to look up the specific chapter. 
 

https://www.tor.com/series/malazan-reread-of-the-fallen/

I’m excited for the Karsa trilogy as well! Thanks for all your thoughts.

[Orlion Blight]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I don't think we necessarily disagree on whether or not Erikson is pretentious, but rather whether or not his inflated opinion of himself is justified. In this case, if I'm understanding you correctly, you think he is justified because the Book of the Fallen succeeds in part because of his pretentiousness. I think they succeed in spite of his pretentiousness and, often, the execution is threatened by it (see especially Dust of Dreams and Crippled God. Some might include Toll the Hounds, but I also liked that one. The form and Erikson's pretentiousness and high opinion of himself really complimented each other and worked together to create something special there). 

As a comparison, take Esslemont. He started off pretentious as well which lead to inferior Malazan books where, among other things, he mistook authorial reticence with subtlety. The Path to Ascendancy was him taking a departure from that attitude and they created a better product. 

Erikson, however, has really embraced his pretentiousness when it comes to his writing post-Book of the Fallen and has been slapped down repeatedly. As a result, those books have seen atrocious sales which forced him to abandon one of his trilogies and start another one in a hope to reignite reader interest in his work. He seems to have learned some lessons, since he is trying to manage reader expectation with regard to the Karsa trilogy, but we'll have to see how he executes it.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 1/7/2020 at 8:23 AM, Orlion the Platypus said:

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I don't think we necessarily disagree on whether or not Erikson is pretentious, but rather whether or not his inflated opinion of himself is justified. In this case, if I'm understanding you correctly, you think he is justified because the Book of the Fallen succeeds in part because of his pretentiousness. I think they succeed in spite of his pretentiousness and, often, the execution is threatened by it (see especially Dust of Dreams and Crippled God. Some might include Toll the Hounds, but I also liked that one. The form and Erikson's pretentiousness and high opinion of himself really complimented each other and worked together to create something special there).

Sorry for the long delayed response, I actually started this a couple of times on my phone, but I wanted to wait until I had some time to sit down and address this more seriously (i.e typing on a real keyboard).

That's not exactly right, I think that he succeeds in Book of the Fallen because he is willing to go places and address certain topics, that were he not successful, would result in him being labeled pretentious. The aspersion of pretentiousness is only cast after the fact, and it's only applied when someone thinks that the creator's ambition outstrips their capacity, or that their opinion of themselves and their work is out of line with reality. I have read a couple of interviews with Erickson, and have read some of the blog posts that he has written, and his opinion of himself is rather on the high side, but I'm of the philosophy that the work exists separate and apart from the creator, and stands or falls based on it's own merits or failings.

I'm listening/reading Dust of Dreams right now, and with the exception of the very tiresome White Faced barghast story line, it's not dragging nearly as much as it did for the me the first time through. Admittedly I just started part 3 so the long slog through the glass desert has just begun, but the Master Sergeant Pores/Captain Kindly interplay is some of the best comic material in all of Malazan. The part too where Kalyth, Destriant to the K'Chain Che'Malle is contemplating taking the spotted horse, and she describes the retrograde motion of the Elan shaman's soul through the slipstream of time is amazing and incredibly well thought out, and is an example of the depth of Erickson's thought that is just plain absent in ICE.

My point is really this, can you call Steven Erickson's work pretentious? Yes, yes you can, and at times it's possibly even deserved (though I still think it's a very subjective critique). Could you call Scarborough Fair/Canticle by Simon and Garfunkel pretentious? Yes, yes you can, but does that keep it from being beautiful, and more to the point, the fact that the singer is requesting a Cambric shirt is ridiculous only if you fail to allow yourself to be drawn up into the atmosphere and mood of the piece.

Wading through the self-important poetry slam-esque soliloquies of Baddalle is hard, but she is a counterpoint to the Forkrul Assail (which are such amazingly good villains!), and though the whole Ribby snake bit is tiresome and somewhat tedious, it's in service of a larger theme, a small detail showing how, like Arkhast Korvalain, words have intrinsic power. And if you can swallow the over the top, crank up the suffering to 11 ridiculousness of Shattered Plains Bridge crew runs, the hyperbole of a caravan of preyed upon children used to ratchet up the stakes shouldn't be that much harder to swallow. The effect is similar, it's overblown tension to illicit a reaction.

I am beginning to ramble in my digressions, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited January 21, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Briar King]

Really enjoying OST

[Ammanas]

New Esslemont book this year! At least in the UK...it seems like the Esslemont books are sometimes delayed 2-3 months for United States readers. Still great news!

https://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2020/02/new-malazan-novel-confirmed-for-this.html?m=1

 

[Briar King]

Here is Werts map link he posted today on Malazan boards.

 

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2020/03/04/a-new-almost-definitive-malazan-world-map/

[officiumdefunctorum]

48 minutes ago, Briar King said:

Here is Werts map link he posted today on Malazan boards.

 

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2020/03/04/a-new-almost-definitive-malazan-world-map/

Nice!

[Briar King]

Finished OST. Really enjoyed this one a lot. Would have read it much faster then the 42 days it took me likely had Death Stranding not consumed so much of my time.

Not sure why Malazan boards reading order is to do this after TCG.. should be after DoD imo.

[officiumdefunctorum]

2 hours ago, Briar King said:

Finished OST. Really enjoyed this one a lot. Would have read it much faster then the 42 days it took me likely had Death Stranding not consumed so much of my time.

Not sure why Malazan boards reading order is to do this after TCG.. should be after DoD imo.

I really prefer the publication order, for most things. The ICE books do have their own internal storyline that I think will get lost when it's broken up with the main ten book series.

But I suppose I shouldn't knock it until I try it! My school district is closed until 4/14 at least so I might start up a reread.

[Briar King]

It’s making a great experience doing it this way but had I never read og I wouldn’t be going this route.

Man new readers are both lucky and reallyyy unlucky. They have it all now for an epic power read but dang they missed out on the pure joy of finally getting the next entry published and the excitement it unleashed on the community!

[Briar King]

I actually didn’t catch the arrow thing other then they seemed to be valuable enough for them to gank lol. I ll pull it out real quick and try to find it to reread.

Were you talking about the “smoke” and the guy afterwards

silently loln as if to say “I am still here.”

I can see that I guess now but that was really little to pick up on for me. Or did I miss them spelling it out from sometime earlier in the book?

Yeah I just clued in on they got sticky fingers for something shiny lol

Edited March 21, 2020 by Briar King

[Ammanas]

Sorry @Briar King but I’m having a hard time following most of your last post. If you were talking about the “special arrows” the biggest clue was when he throws all of his forge making materials into the ocean afterwards and it mentions something like a “creaking of wheels and a rattling of chains” that strikes terror in the witnesses heart. That description always refers to that sword. Sorry it’s been a little while. There were a few smaller clues I think but this was the biggest one and the only one I could recall.

[Briar King]

Aww I didn’t connect that Barathol was forging them. I thought they were working on

a prison/box for the mask

 

yeah sorry my ambien was hitting last night. I went back and read the S&L bit

when an arrow hits the wound trails a stream of smoke and one assumes the Tyrant would know what happens to the swords kills and not being able to talk besides through mouthpiece Ebbin, all Tyrant does is shake in silent laughter and gestures: yet I am still here. He seems to be rather pleased with himself that he isn’t inside the broken sword and special.

[Briar King]

Man I really hate my tpb Ed of this book. It’s massive so I thought it was gonna be bigger then OST. Nope it’s actually about 20+ pgs shorter...pgs are just thick as rust pushing the finished product to be close to a 1/3 thicker spine. It’s so stiff compared to the other 4 which felt so nice and light to hold.

This is reminding me of some of the larger Shadows of Apt 5-10 bricks.

[Ammanas]

Maybe it’s time to join the e-reader cult? I fought against it for a long time but the screen really does look a lot like paper and is very different than a phone or computer. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Ammanas

[Briar King]

Ok BnB please don’t go the route that DoD read took me....I haven’t even finished ch 1 yet. Not grabbing me one bit. SW and esp OST hooked me right off page 1.

As much as I love Malazan after 3 rusting years of this reread I just want to be done! And I still got to buy those last 3 Dancer books to. Ugh

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I really liked Dust of Dreams the 2nd time through, a lot of the parts that felt disjointed, slow and just plain odd the first time through made much more sense.

I was also stealing myself for the Kharkanus books, so the Tiste Andii and Shake subplots were much more interesting.

The Crippled God is such a great book! It's so much more satisfying the second time through, and like you pointed out @Ammanas the return to the weather vane at Mock's hold and the recasting of Ganoes' talk with Whidkeyjack is so amazingly good!

I listened to first chapter of the Ralph Lister Gardens of the Moon right after finishing TCG, and almost got suckked into relistening to the whole Book of the Fallen.

I'm glad I read Forge of Darkness instead, the biggest fault of which is that it has almost no real story. The early days of Tiste are nothing like I expected them to be, and it's really interesting pulling back the veil and glimpsing the time of myth before the myths took shape. There are some amazing bits in this book, and it's nice to see that the origins of things are as complicated as the application of things. Kadispala, oh my heart breaks for you.

I was just looking on Steven Erickson's Facebook page, and he linked to a pretty awesome Gardens of the moon casting video that looks like the opening to a 90's sitcom:

 

I don't know how many of you are Bauchelain and Korbal Broach fans, but Erickson has posted a new novella in 6 hand written MS pages on his Facebook page too, here's a link to the first page;

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1521558584663103&id=884647141687587&__tn__=*s*s-R