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Malazan


Ammanas

Favorite Malazan Book  

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  1. 1. Favorite Malazan Book

    • GotM
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      5
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    • MT
      3
    • Bonehunters
      3
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      2
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    • Dancers Lament
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    • Deadhouse Landing
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    • Kellanved's Reach
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One of the fantasy bloggers I follow, Wert, left some interesting comments about Malazan on another forum. Some interesting stuff about how a tv show fell through at the last minute, how Kharkanus and Dancers Lament are viewed by many in the fan base, and some great insight into Karsa:

To be clear, the 10-book core series has sold very, very well (3.5 million copies now and rising), enough that at TV company did option the books. Unfortunately, it was Harvey Weinstein's company. Fortunately the last contract wasn't signed, so it got dropped when Weinstein started his "troubles" (as Erikson has said, they dodged a bullet on that one).

The problem was much more specific to the Kharkanas books. Forge of Darkness sold mediocrely, which surprised everyone as it came out only a year after The Crippled God, and Fall of Light sold even worse (perhaps less surprisingly, as it came after Forge of Darkness and after a four-year delay with relatively little fanfare accompanying its release). At the same time Esslemont's sales were continuing and gathering pace, and jumped up a notch between Assail and Dancer's Lament. Apparently, "read this short novel about how the Malazan Empire was formed and the Bridgeburners met and Tayschrenn showed up and you get to see Dancer kicking arse in his prime" was a better sell than "read this dour and introspective tome on the inevitability of cynicism in a race that lives forever" or something.

Karsa Orlong is a character I think Erikson struggles with, in that he really didn't want to write Karsa as a kick-chull barbarian warrior (Conan turned to 11), but as a psychopathic lunatic no-one would want to cross paths with who gradually becomes aware that that is exactly what he is, struggles with it, and basically leans into it which does save the world but at a dubious cost (which is where the Witness trilogy will pick up). He is a complex and dangerous character. Obviously that didn't happen and a lot of fans wet themselves over Karsa whenever he showed up. He is not a nice guy, but gets mistaken for that because sometimes his goals coincide with those of our more relatable protagonists (that of course is Erikson's fault, having Karsa kill several of the most detestable characters in the series does make you kind of warm to him a little bit).

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1 hour ago, Ammanas said:

 

The problem was much more specific to the Kharkanas books. Forge of Darkness sold mediocrely, which surprised everyone as it came out only a year after The Crippled God, and Fall of Light sold even worse (perhaps less surprisingly, as it came after Forge of Darkness and after a four-year delay with relatively little fanfare accompanying its release). At the same time Esslemont's sales were continuing and gathering pace, and jumped up a notch between Assail and Dancer's Lament. Apparently, "read this short novel about how the Malazan Empire was formed and the Bridgeburners met and Tayschrenn showed up and you get to see Dancer kicking arse in his prime" was a better sell than "read this dour and introspective tome on the inevitability of cynicism in a race that lives forever" or something.

 

Many Fantasy authors like to believe that the genre is highly literary and sophisticated. I won't tackle that, instead I'll comment on fantasy readership. They tend not to be sophisticated (though they think themselves to be so) and want something much more base than experimental. 

As a result, the Kharkanas trilogy was always going to struggle. Regardless of whether or not it was done well, it does not give what Malazan readers want,  which is simply lore to give the Malazan World more depth. 

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The pictures are from the Subterranean Press editions which have a limited print run, are all signed by the author, on premium paper etc. Each book, if you are able to get ahold of one or get on their list, costs about $350. They are high-end collector editions. It's kind of like what Brandon is doing with his special editions of Elantria and Mistborn, but even more expensive and exclusive.

Edited by Ammanas
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39 minutes ago, Briar King said:

links for 1-7?

So I will provide a link to the previous book, Reapers Gale, to show what I mean. Once they are sold out they do not print anymore...that's what makes them so expensive and exclusive. Every once in a while I will see people who offer their guaranteed number through their agreement with Subterranean Press because they can no longer afgord to collect them. If you do not have one of these its iffy that you will be able to get a copy; even if you can afford them. I think their are a few places to see just the pictures if you are willing to do some google searches.

https://subterraneanpress.com/reapers-gale

Edit: if you want to get the previous books its my understanding they show up on ebay on occasion 

I just did a quick ebay search and found they were selling the special efitions of book 4, 7, and 8. Here is the link to House of Chains:

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Steven-Erikson-SIGNED-House-of-Chains-Malazan-4-Subterranean-Press-Limited-VF/302648220923?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180213162448%26meid%3D8b3e34d328624f929667d966d0f42fa7%26pid%3D100930%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D8%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D302412659082%26itm%3D302648220923&_trksid=p2056116.c100930.m5375

Edited by Ammanas
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So I've read through the first 9 volumes of Malazan The Book of the Fallen, and I'm about a half way through The Crippled God, and I just can't read it anymore. This is my first time through the Malazan books, and I've been listening to the Audiobooks mostly, and Michael Paige's voice acting for Badalle and all of the characters that make up the Ribby snake are so bad that I have a hard time listening to what they are saying. Also, the whole plot line of the Ribby snake bothers me. I understand the need to up the horror visited upon survivors of war, I thought nothing could be worse than the Pannion Domin with it's starving locust like army of Tenescowri, but Erickson can always up the ante on the cruelty visited upon humans by their fellow humans. But the Ribby snake bit just falls flat. Badalle the poetry espousing seer is so annoying, Held the baby with the strange metaphysics of the born bothers the crap out of me, and the unceasing horror upon horror that they go through seems futile and pointless.

Also, with the introduction of the K'chain Che'Malle and the Forkrul Assail as major antagonists cum allies in Dust of Dreams, The Crippled God seems to be angling towards an ending that's going to leave a ton of loose ends.

I started reading/listening to this series largely on the recommendation of @Ammanas, and up through Toll of the Hounds I loved this series.

So my question is, does The Crippled God give a good resolution to this series? Right now, it seems to be angling towards something that is going to be deeply disappointing, I'll be upset if Badalle (a minor and annoying character introduced in book 9) plays the most critical part in defeating the forces intent on destroying humanity (the Assail, the Grey Helms, etc.).

Toll of the Hounds is one of my favorite books of all times, this has totally been worth the journey going through the Malazan book of the Fallen, but I really didn't like Dust of Dreams and the Crippled God is shaping up to be one of the least enjoyable books that I've read in a long time (I actually dread reading it almost as much as I dreaded reading White Sand Volume 2).

Erickson's endings are always amazing, the idea of convergence is a great plot device to ensure that all the characters you care about are there and that all of the forces at play come to bear at the same time and place, but I guess my real question is do you guys like the ending of The Crippled God, and can you make a case for the ending without spoilers?

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26 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@AngelEy3 bless you, you have given me the strength to carry on.

I was going to finish it, but I was not looking forward to it. This is way better news than I was expecting, I can soldier through the Badalle parts now.

Badalle gets her One Big Thing and then you don't really have to deal with her on her own so much. Agreed on Michael Page not doing well with those voices, nor with Olar Ethil. I think he tries too hard.

And yes, second half of CG is brilliant. The ultimate convergence.

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24 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

Badalle gets her One Big Thing and then you don't really have to deal with her on her own so much. Agreed on Michael Page not doing well with those voices, nor with Olar Ethil. I think he tries too hard.

And yes, second half of CG is brilliant. The ultimate convergence.

More good news, thanks!

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I also struggled a bit with Dust of Dreams. I personally found the "Ghost" and  "Snake" storyline to be the least interesting of the series to me. I loved the giant skykeep battle at the end which really saved the book imo. The Crippled God begins with the typical Erikson "throat clearing" and then you get a great book. Erikson doesn't neatly tie up every plotline, but there is resolution and I feel like it was appropriate and surprising in a few ways.

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1 hour ago, Ammanas said:

The Crippled God begins with the typical Erikson "throat clearing" and then you get a great book. Erikson doesn't neatly tie up every plotline, but there is resolution and I feel like it was appropriate and surprising in a few ways.

Hahaha, we'll put.

Thanks again, I really have liked most of Malazan and it was your well reasoned promotion of the series that got me into. I think my problem with book 10 is really was just Paige fatigue. Badalle is like every pretentious poet I've ever known, combine that with a vocalization that's equivalent in annoyance to listening to Gilbert Godfrey reading the phone book and it's a hard slog.

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22 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Hahaha, we'll put.

Thanks again, I really have liked most of Malazan and it was your well reasoned promotion of the series that got me into. I think my problem with book 10 is really was just Paige fatigue. Badalle is like every pretentious poet I've ever known, combine that with a vocalization that's equivalent in annoyance to listening to Gilbert Godfrey reading the phone book and it's a hard slog.

That's an apt metaphor. Sometimes Page gets it amazingly right (Gruntle, Karsa, Quickben, Hellian) and other times I want to cover my ears (Pust, Kruppe, some of the T'lan Imass). I think I liked what he did with Gentleman Bastards, more. damnation narrators and their effect on things...

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3 hours ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

That's an apt metaphor. Sometimes Page gets it amazingly right (Gruntle, Karsa, Quickben, Hellian) and other times I want to cover my ears (Pust, Kruppe, some of the T'lan Imass). I think I liked what he did with Gentleman Bastards, more. damnation narrators and their effect on things...

Totally agree with you, it was a bit jarring going from Ralph Lister (who did an amazing job with the first 3 books (with the notable exception of Cropper, holy cropper, I had to set my play speed to 2x to get through the cropper bits)) to Michael Paige. His Karsa is really good, and I love his Kalam too. And, more importantly, he does an AMAZING Tehold Bedict and Bugg. It's interesting listening to audiobooks, I either want a narrator (like Jim Dale) to do all of the voices flawlessly, or them to not try and do voices at all like the narrator for Dune (it was about 20 years ago when I heard it, but the guy sounds like a text to speech program). Best case is an amazing actor (like Jim Dale, Ralph Lister or Roy Dotrice) that can vocalize the whole cast. Barring that it's best to have a narrator that can read the book (preferably with a cool accent) but not try and do to much to differentiate the characters, so your imagination can take over).

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3 hours ago, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

That's why I don't really do audiobooks. They can ruin a book if not done properly. 

Truth. They can also make the boring parts of books bearable, too. Michael Kramer and Kate Reading are magical, and make the slog portion of the Wheel of Time as interesting as it can be.

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I think Simon Vance really added to Lightbringer and Marsters to the Dresden Files as well.

Speaking of Slogs what to Baker fans mean when they reference "The slog of slogs?" That phrase was starting to apply to the Malazan army in the desert...I was starting to think they would never get out of there in The Crippled God! Once they do get out however its starts to get really good for their storyline.

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1 hour ago, Ammanas said:

I think Simon Vance really added to Lightbringer and Marsters to the Dresden Files as well.

Speaking of Slogs what to Baker fans mean when they reference "The slog of slogs?" That phrase was starting to apply to the Malazan army in the desert...I was starting to think they would never get out of there in The Crippled God! Once they do get out however its starts to get really good for their storyline.

In the latter half of the series, a bounty is put on Sranc scalps (rabid, rapacious creatures that run in hordes, bit like Goblins), and bands of hunters cropped up who would go on expeditions into an inhospitable region to retrieve them. This arduous, sometimes months long hunt in the wilderness became colloquially known as "the slog" by the hunters.

One character, when on a slog of unprecedented length and ambition, referred to it as "the slog of slogs", later becoming his cackling catchphrase as it devolves into madness.

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3 hours ago, Ammanas said:

I think Simon Vance really added to Lightbringer and Marsters to the Dresden Files as well.

Speaking of Slogs what to Baker fans mean when they reference "The slog of slogs?" That phrase was starting to apply to the Malazan army in the desert...I was starting to think they would never get out of there in The Crippled God! Once they do get out however its starts to get really good for their storyline.

As far as what Bakker fans mean? Seems to mean rereading the series as they waited for Bakker to finish the Aspect Emperor series. 

Bakker, I think, used it to wryly refer to how long it was taking him to finish the series after White Luck Warrior. 

To be sure, the "series" isn't over, just the first two seasons. 

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@TheOrlionThatComesBefore That too.

@Ammanas Re: Vance. He doesn't usurp the dream team of Michael Kramer and Kate Reading as my favorite, but everything of his that I've listened to has been fantastic. I think I'd have enjoyed Night Angel 1000x more if it had been him narrating instead of the dude who reminded me of the True Facts guy. I was disappointed that he didn't do the rest of Malazan, and wonder why he didn't. Page certainly did a fine job, and I prefer his Kalam and Quickben to Vance's, but I also hate change.

Roy Dotrice's name was bandied about earlier. Frankly, I hated him. I'll never listen to ASoIaF again because he made my skin crawl and utterly butchered the phrase Valar Morghulis. Whoever did The Prince of Nothing portion of Second Apocalypse didn't do it and favors, either.

Edited by officiumdefunctorum
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On 8/28/2018 at 4:44 AM, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

That's why I don't really do audiobooks. They can ruin a book if not done properly.

I get what you are saying, but that's not entirely fair. I think the thing that they can do, which is awful don't get me wrong, is draw out the things that you would find detestable anyway. Humans are remarkably adaptable. You can screen out and or accommodate nearly anything (as Malazan attests to in heartbreaking detail). The narrator for Flow My Tears the Policeman said did one of the worst jobs I've ever heard of a man doing a woman's voice. But I screened it out because the dialogue was really good.

Erickson is an amazing writer, but he does tend to go to areas that I would consider "pretentious". The problem I was having specifically was that these moments were also coupled with the pretentiousness of the narrator, and you have the endless echo effect of Pretentious writing with Pretentious narration equals pretentiousness^2. 

I first experienced Warbreaker as an audiobook by one of my least favorite narrators, but it's still one of my favorite books by Sanderson. I could screen out his effect over time.

I think Michael Paige does a good job with Malazan, I just think book 9 is one of my least favorite books of all time. I knew that book 10 was just part 2 of book 9 going into it, and based on what I've heard on this thread, I think that that the destination will be better than the journey.

On 8/28/2018 at 4:38 PM, Ammanas said:

"The slog of slogs?" That phrase was starting to apply to the Malazan army in the desert...I was starting to think they would never get out of there in The Crippled God! Once they do get out however its starts to get really good for their storyline.

Thats's so funny, I think that Erickson has a completely different view of enlightenment. It's not the inaccessible mountain to climb, rather it's the ceaseless desert. He's such a cynical bastard that of course the perpetual, unceasing journey towards a meaningless end where only stubborn obdurate endurance matters is the great keynote of life. As an aside, I hate the glass desert more than I have hated any other uncrossable desert. But I think this is a more a more a matter of the Erickson mode of upping the ante than that this desert is more intrinsically irritating.

22 hours ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

Roy Dotrice's name was bandied about earlier. Frankly, I hated him. I'll never listen to ASoIaF again because he made my skin crawl and utterly butchered the phrase Valar Morghulis.

Ok, I do have to defend Roy Dotrice. With the notable exception of Jim Dale, he is (in my opinion) the best audiobook narrator of them all. Peter Dinklage does a pretty good job as Tyrion, but Roy IS the voice of tyrion Lanister. I love Michael Kramer and Kate Redding, but to be honest I have been listening to them for the last 20 years (they are great, but at what point does nostalgia tinge your opinion to the point where it isn't just a conservative bias?).

*********UPDATE*************
The Crippled God is starting to get REALLY good! Thanks again for helping me get past the glass desert part.Badale isn't really bothering me anymore, the long tedious wandering of the snake was what was getting to me. After the scene where Silchas Ruin meets up with Tulas Shorn, it's just been getting better and better.

Kalams Back! Ganoes Paran just told off the Assail! Freaking awesome! Back to lovin' it.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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On 8/29/2018 at 4:35 AM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

The Crippled God is starting to get REALLY good! Thanks again for helping me get past the glass desert part.

Let us know your final thoughts when you finish. Look for the cyclical ending too; I recommend reading the prologue to Gardens right afterwards. The first and last sentence about Mock's weather vane (with the vane being a metaphor for the current state of the empire). Also a young boy coming up to a grizzled veteran and saying "I want to be a Soldier"

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