The Invested Beard Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, ParadoxicalZen said: On the topic of Ishar looking all cult-ish, lets not forget that the attributes associated with Bondsmiths are Pious and Guiding...so perhaps Dandos may painted this with those qualities in mind then, but now it (to us more knowledgeable folk) it could easily be interpreted as the other side of the coin I'd go with this as the in-world aesthetic being aimed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, ParadoxicalZen said: On the topic of Ishar looking all cult-ish, lets not forget that the attributes associated with Bondsmiths are Pious and Guiding...so perhaps Dandos may painted this with those qualities in mind then, but now it (to us more knowledgeable folk) it could easily be interpreted as the other side of the coin That is very true and more than likely the truth but it’s more fun to think of him as this guy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalocx Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 On the LONG topic of skin color in this thread, which started off with an observation of "Why is Ash portrayed as dark skinned by a presumably Alethi artist?" I think a few people in this discussion have forgotten that Alethi are described as light brown/tan in a way that if they were transported to Earth I think would make their skin tones much closer to Middle Easterners or Hispanics than Western Europeans. Taln being described as not looking Alethi because because he was too dark was because he probably looks dark brown in a way we would see as someone of African decent. Ash's light/medium brown skin in the art is what I've always pictured Alethi looking like in my head, if anything its that the depiction of Ishar seems too "light skinned" to be Alethi. Maybe he is supposed to be Veden since Shallan is pretty fair skinned? (though if that's the predominant Veden skin color or if its an influence of Horneater blood I'm not sure of) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 4 hours ago, Dlyol said: But races don't exist! Quote Race as it actually exists First, this confuses me. If race is acknowledged and used as a means of classification, how on earth does it not exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 5 hours ago, Nymeros said: First, this confuses me. If race is acknowledged and used as a means of classification, how on earth does it not exist? Better to saw, race exists, but it is a fuzzy category, if you look too closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostlander Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I was curious to see if the term "race" shows up in SA, and after appearing a few times in WoK, it very abruptly disappears. One incident in WoK, the Recreance vision, uses the word: Quote The former Shardbearer pulled his arm free and continued to walk away. Dalinar cursed, then ran into the midst of the Shardbearers. They were of all races and nationalities, dark skin and light, some with white Thaylen eyebrows, others with the skin ripples of the Selay. They walked with eyes forward, not speaking to one another, steps slow but resolute. Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 732). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. The only post-WoK use of the word is in Arcanum, to describe Rhyshadium. My guess is that with the greater exploration of slavery and discrimination coming up, Brandon decided to stop using the word altogether. Certain groups or nationalities are still associated with phenotypical characteristics, but it's likely he saw the word "race" as having too much baggage to be useful. All this aside, "monochrome" skin shades (as Eshonai put it) don't really provide a classification scheme for discrimination at all. Hair and eye color are important as physical characteristics used for creating cultural hierarchies. (Of course, being Aimian, Listener, or of Listener descent, like the Horneaters, is another story.) I am interested to see the terminology he decides is most useful going forward. As of WoR, it doesn't look like it will be species, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlyol Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 @Nymeros perhaps I should have been clearer. My point is that races have no existence independent of racism. They do not have some primordial existence but are created by human societies. As 'races' clearly have now been manufactured in our world they 'exist' in a certain sense but in Stormlight in my view they have not and do not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 44 minutes ago, Dlyol said: @Nymeros perhaps I should have been clearer. My point is that races have no existence independent of racism. They do not have some primordial existence but are created by human societies. As 'races' clearly have now been manufactured in our world they 'exist' in a certain sense but in Stormlight in my view they have not and do not. Races definitely have an existence outside of racism, it's just people looking different, and racism is considering a race inferior or superior or any other. People looking different is not exclusively related to seeing those differences as a sign of superiority or inferiority. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) "Race" is an ill-defined term anyway. A species is clearlly defined: individuals are of the same species if they can mate and produce fertile offspring. Still, even there there are ambiguities, because there are cases (so called "ring species") where you have a population B that can produce fertile offspring both with populations A and C, but A and C cannot interbreed between them. race, however, does not have a clear-cut definition as far as I know. It is basically a matter of semantics to decide whether a certain distinction can be considered a race or not; it does not change the facts. And personally I have to go against the flow and say I don't like the modern politically correct stance of denying the existence of races in the name of equality. That carries the risk of indirectly legitimating discrimination. Suppose that in the future we were to discover that there were some tiny genetic differences that caused small - but measurable - differences among human populations. Or suppose that some colonists are sent to Mars and they remain isolated for centuries and they have a genetic drift until they became distinct enough. Now, with all the emphasis we are putting at the moment on "we must not discriminate because we are all equal", if those scenarios happened some would jump on it and say 'haha! Now those are demonstrably different, and so we can discriminate them at leisure'. No, that's not what equality is about. The key point of equality is not that everyone is equal to everyone else. The key point here is that people must be judged solely according to their actions. And it doesn't matter a damnation if people belong to different races or whatnot. It's not like we do not discriminate because everyone belongs to the same race. We do not discriminate because we judge people only based on their actions. So in this scenario where we send a small colony on mars, and everyone we send will have a phd and be phisically perfect and stuff because of course we want to send on mars people who are good enough to survive there, and those healty geniuses only interbreed among them, and when space travel becomes cheap enough that we can have regular contacts, we now have the homo martianus who has an average IQ of 140 and no genetic diseases. And it would be pointless to say that they are not a different race; they are. And it would be stupid to say that they are not better on average; they are. It's just that they don't get to discriminate anybody. They don't get all the best jobs because they are homo martianus. Some of them will be dumber than others and will get menial jobs. Regular humans will not be kept off from intellectual jobs because they are dumb. Those few peoople with an IQ of 140 will be able to compete with the martians on equal footing. Especially, the martians won't get to enslave the regular humans because they are smarter. Just like those who have an IQ of 60 and are mentally retarded are not enslaved, but they are instead helped. That's what equality means. And every time we stress on how it is important to not discriminate because we are all equal, we implicitly affirm that if we actually were to find someone who was different, it would be all right to discriminate. And we are also helping racism survive: in a "judge people only for their actions" scenario, racism has no reason to exist whatsoever. You judge everyone independently. A racist trying to argue that someone should be discriminated for his genetical association to a certain segment of population would be as ridiculous as someone suggesting that since most crimes are committed by single males aged between 20 and 30, then all such people should be preemptively jailed. But instead we argue that there are no differences; and since there are plenty of differences related to culture and socioeconomic status, it is nigh impossible to provide a clear enough evidence of equality. So racist people can still argue their point. Edited October 24, 2017 by king of nowhere 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Dlyol said: @Nymeros perhaps I should have been clearer. My point is that races have no existence independent of racism. I don't think that's true really. Its just a means of broadly categorizing individuals. You dont have to do such a thing out of malice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmancer Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I wanted Dalinar in Shardplate on his Ryshadium. You gave me soft porn. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 On 10/20/2017 at 3:19 PM, Pagerunner said: The strong crystalline motif for the female Herald makes me think it's Vedeledev, who is associated with Lucentia (glass, crystal). I was under the impression that Shalash had much darker skin. Did we get any description of her hair color in her interlude? I'm glad I'm not the only one who got the crystal vibe from it. It's probably of note that the shattered pieces of the masks are falling upwards. As for Shalash's hair color... it's black. Quote Their mistress walked ahead of them, the only other person in the hallway. She wasn't Emuli—she didn't even seem Makabaki, though she had dark skin and long, beautiful black hair. She had eyes like a Shin, but she was tall and lean, like an Alethi. Av thought she was a mixed breed. Or so he said when they dared talk about such things. The mistress had good ears. Strangely good ears. [...] He forced his eyes forwards so he wouldn't keep looking over his shoulder, but then found himself staring at the mistress. It was dangerous, being employed by a woman as beautiful as she was, with that long black hair, worn free, hanging down to her waist. She never wore a proper woman's robe, or even a dress or skirt. Always trousers, usually sleek and tight, a thin-bladed sword at her hip. Her eyes were so faintly violet they were almost white. Way of Kings Interlude I-7: Baxil Quote The figure in white and blue glanced towards him. Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely into his thirtieth year. His short black beard was neatly trimmed, though his once fine clothing was scorched and stained with blood. he folded his arms behind his back as he turned to Kalak. Way of Kings Prelude Jezrien's hair color is black as well(his beard at least), so I'm inclined to believe that black is his daughter's natural hair color. The "Shin eyes" discrepancy I can potentially see as an Alethi painter's Artistic License, but a diametrically different hair color? On 10/20/2017 at 1:59 PM, SilverTiger said: Oh, I just noticed, all three moons are visible behind the man. But only one is visible at a time in-world. Could easily be artistic license on the part on the Oilsworn. Out of curiosity, where do we know the "only one moon is visible at a time" thing from? I'm only asking because I can't seem to find it. On 10/20/2017 at 2:36 PM, paperstones said: I keep thinking the picture on the left is the Circle of Memories, the Alethkar Oathgate. We see ten lamps and the eleventh could be behind the man. Bear in mind that those "lamps" appear to be held by the people in the room, similar to how a spear/pike would be held in ye olde honor guard. The Oathgate lamps were mounted on the walls. Quote Quote A round room, with ten lamps on the wall, one for each of the ancient epoch kingdoms. An eleventh lamp represented the Tranquiline Halls, and a large keyhole set into the wall... Quote The circular chamber, silently counting the divisions on the floor mural. There were ten main ones... between the segments representing the first and tenth kingdoms-was a narrower eleventh section... Kholinar & Stormseat (Emphasis added) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 @The One Who Connects Ash's hair looks glowing to me, like it's about to change via illumination. I think the pieces look like they are falling upwards due to the weak gravity, because she is on one of the moons and it's Roshar behind her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Aleksiel said: Ash's hair looks glowing to me, like it's about to change via illumination. That seems reasonable eough. Bit of an odd "timing" for a painting, but religious imagery never really enjoyed consistency or logic anyway, so why not? 2 minutes ago, Aleksiel said: I think the pieces look like they are falling upwards due to the weak gravity, because she is on one of the moons and it's Roshar behind her. This, on the other hand, feels off. It's a painting by an in-world artist. It just seems... too strange for the depiction to be set on the moon. Your idea makes sense based on the size of the celestial body behind her in the picture, but that then makes the picture not make sense. I can't wrap my head around why it would be drawn like that. Battar has the Transportation Surge to go to fantastic places, so it'd make sense for her, but Shalash? As a side note, her sleeve almost looks like it's not connected to the rest of her dress. No real deeper meaning here, it's just a detail that I noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: That seems reasonable eough. Bit of an odd "timing" for a painting, but religious imagery never really enjoyed consistency or logic anyway, so why not? This, on the other hand, feels off. It's a painting by an in-world artist. It just seems... too strange for the depiction to be set on the moon. Your idea makes sense based on the size of the celestial body behind her in the picture, but that then makes the picture not make sense. I can't wrap my head around why it would be drawn like that. Battar has the Transportation Surge to go to fantastic places, so it'd make sense for her, but Shalash? The way I interpret it, it's not necessarily connected to surges, but a way to present her beauty as out of their world and show it as if eclipsing Roshar itself. Edited October 24, 2017 by Aleksiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I wonder, is there any way to get prints of these? Or gaming playmats? Cause they would be awesome. And while some people would say that yes, you can have too many playmats, even if that is true, I'm not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Aleksiel said: A way to present her beauty as out of their world and show it as if eclipsing Roshar itself. Your first statement didn't really imply "artistic license" to me, so that's probably why I was taking it literal. This does make sense though, even if I feel like there should be a better way to convey that than literally "out of this world." (not that I can think of how) Edited October 24, 2017 by The One Who Connects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said: Your first statement didn't really imply "artistic license" to me. This does make sense, even if I feel like there should be a better way to convey that than literally "out of this world." (not that I can think of how) Yeah, sorry for not being clearer - the hair due to use of surge (she is about to put or has just taken off the mask) and the place for metaphoric purposes. Well, at least that's my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 On 10/23/2017 at 10:57 AM, NinjaAlligators said: Incidentally, I think both Ishar and Shallash as depicted here could be described as "tan", so I feel that if anything we should probably update our idea of stereotypically Alethi beauty accordingly--if young Navani was considered gorgeous, she probably looked something somewhat like the depiction of Shallash we have here. I don't think Alethi are much lighter skinned than what we have here. I imagine Nale and Taln as being much darker-skinned than this. Agreed; I was confused when the original newspost described this art as displaying Shallash's "Makabaki skintone" because imo it's way too light for that. Of course, since it's an in-world depiction, it makes perfect sense for Dandos to have Alethized her appearance (and quite likely he didn't know what she or any of the other Heralds really look like anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariapapadia Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 Look at this beauty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) ^ Pfft..Not falling for the old printed off the dust jacket from the twitter pic and put it on another book trick. Of course you could prove me wrong by posting the back endpapers.. Edited October 25, 2017 by StormingTexan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariapapadia Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 1 minute ago, StormingTexan said: ^ Pfft..Not falling for the old printed off the dust jacket from the twitter pic and put it on another book trick. Of course you could prove me wrong by posting the back endpapers.. I see what you did there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 1 minute ago, mariapapadia said: I see what you did there Cant blame a guy for trying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Sharded? Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 1 hour ago, mariapapadia said: Look at this beauty I almost feel like this should be censored for sexual content... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) oooo yeah baby let me slip that dustjacket off... Edit: I immediately regret this post. Edited October 25, 2017 by The Invested Beard 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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