[OB] Inside cover art!! Finally!

[kari-no-sugata]

I expect we'll see at least one chapter from Lift's POV and probably see a bit of her from the POV of the main characters.

There's an easy way to get Lift to open the Oathgate - she just needs to be tempted with the idea of stealing the Blackthorn's lunch. She likes a challenge after all.

[Nymeros]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Alethi do not care about skin color, hence they will not differentiate races based on it. It is why there are little comments being made on each character's respective skin tones, stuff such as Adolin and Renarin being paler than most Alethi never gets mentioned in book because none of the other character care about it. Adolin's hair color is however often mentioned because it is considered a sign of impurity, something negative.

In sorts, Alethi do not have the same racial considerations as we do on Earth. Nobody here would think less of someone because of the hair or eye color, but skin color has been a racial marker for a very long time, something we are all fighting to go away.

Yeah the Alethi are far more classist than racist. That doesnt mean they dont recognize race though.

@kari-no-sugata It makes sense that she would be depicted as having vaguely Asian features (even though that is incorrect) since pretty much everyone on Roster does.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Nymeros

[Harbour]

Brandon's assistant on reddit confirmed that Jezrien and Vedel were drawn by Howard Lyon.

Howard Lyon's artwork for reference.

http://www.howardlyon.com/religious-store/

Daaaaym, cant wait to see the king Jezrien and Vedel in this awesome Bible style.

 

[Salkara]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Alethi do not care about skin color, hence they will not differentiate races based on it.

They most certainly do. Alethi characters have described Makabaki peoples as dark-skinned. That is a clear differentiation of race based on skin color.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Regarding Shalash, it feels to me that her facial features seem slightly Asian.

They should. People on Roshar (except for the Shin) are supposed to have epicanthic eye folds, so they should appear more Asian.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Shallash is stunning...Radiant even..

i'm sorry please don't hurt me 

[kari-no-sugata]

4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

They should. People on Roshar (except for the Shin) are supposed to have epicanthic eye folds, so they should appear more Asian.

Yep. I should have added that this would make sense for an in-world piece of art and I appreciated the detail.

[ZenBossanova]

9 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

I'm actually more surprised that Shalash is depicted with dark skin. I would have expected all of the Heralds to have been depicted as Alethi as that's Amaram expected them to appear. This suggests to me that Vorin artwork of the Heralds depicts them that way, much like how Christian artwork of Jesus typically depicts him as being white despite how absurd that is.

I was under the impression, that perhaps, we had Heralds of ethnicities across Roshar. Of course, ethnicities 4,500 years ago would relate only weakly, if at all, with modern ethnicities. 

 

8 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

On Jesus' race, I wouldn't consider Middle Easterners to be white. They're certainly not black, but there isn't a simple divide between "white" and "black".

Jews are not that dark, on average. They could have been lighter, but arguing about what genes were like 2000 year ago... is difficult. 

[Aleksiel]

@ZenBossanova no idea why that first quote has me as author, I didn't write it, but answered to it. 

[BlackYeti]

@Aleksiel, yeah, that's weird, I'm the one being quoted both times, not just the second time.

5 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I was under the impression, that perhaps, we had Heralds of ethnicities across Roshar. Of course, ethnicities 4,500 years ago would relate only weakly, if at all, with modern ethnicities. 

 

Jews are not that dark, on average. They could have been lighter, but arguing about what genes were like 2000 year ago... is difficult. 

The point I was trying to make by bringing up Jesus was that the artwork is not a realistic depiction of the Heralds. The Heralds may well have been of different races, I was just surprised that this would have been captured in the artwork.

And finally, on the point of Jesus' skin colour, I'm not saying that he was very dark skinned, but he wouldn't have been what most people consider to be white. However, this is a deviation from the topic, and the point has been made, it would probably be best to leave it alone now.

[HelloMyNameIsDrBloodborne]

On 10/20/2017 at 3:22 PM, StormingTexan said:

Not sure who she is but hubba hubba! 

Once you go Maka, there's no going baki.

Edited October 21, 2017 by HelloMyNameIsDrBloodborne

[maxal]

4 hours ago, Salkara said:

They most certainly do. Alethi characters have described Makabaki peoples as dark-skinned. That is a clear differentiation of race based on skin color.

Except they don't.

Quote

 

Q. How about the Iriali and Alethi mix we have going on with Adolin and Renarin? Where would this put them within the chibi figures? I have always had a hard time trying to figure out how they would look like due to their mix ethnicity. I have ideas... of course, but I'd be great to have confirmation.

A. They're gong to have lighter skin, but skin tone isn't something Alethi pay much attention to. Hair and eye color is what draws their attention. Dalinar and Kaladin will be darker than Adolin and Renarin, though none of them would look Caucasian to us. Of course, Caucasians have varied skin tone as well, so it's hard to say specifically what they'd look like. (As a note, Renarin/Adolin are a Riran/Alethi mix--not exactly Iriali/Alethi, as there's some slightly different genetics going on there.)

 

Alethi do not care about skin tones: their racial differentiation is very different than ours.

[Nymeros]

51 minutes ago, maxal said:

Except they don't.

Alethi do not care about skin tones: their racial differentiation is very different than ours.

That doesn't support your argument. Simply because Alethi don't typically discriminate based on skin doesn't mean they dont identify people by racial features....they do it all the time.

Kaladin about Lopen: The man had brown hair and deep tan skin just a shade too dark to be Alethi.

Kaldin about Sigzil: He had dark brown skin and black hair - that meant he was Makabaki, from southwestern Roshar........Foreigners were common in bridge crews - those who didn't fit in often made their way to the crem of the army.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Nymeros

[Argent]

I think we can settle on the Alethi noticing skin color (because it's kind of, you know, obvious), but not thinking much of. Similarly to how we don't usually treat people differently based on their hair color. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 10/20/2017 at 6:28 PM, maxal said:

Not at all what I expected, but it is gorgeous. I however think the female character's dressing style is odd when compared to the book we are reading.

I think we are supposed to be getting a 'Venus' vibe. Otherworldly beauty, tremendous power and grace, etc. Better question: why is she wearing clothes at all? Like Venus, since she is known for her beauty and passion, I think many depictions would have her unclothed. (You can look up 'The birth of Venus' online. It's a famous piece.)

I think the in-world artist wanted to draw her naked (like many RW depictions of Venus), but the Vorin pushback was too strong so he put her in a translucent dress, with a hint of her safe hand, instead.

In RL you just can't get away with putting a naked woman on the inside cover of OB...

@Argent I'm guessing you don't know any older Eastern Europeans who believe red hair is the sign of the devil? Also green eyes. And God forbid you should be left handed! (My grandmother switched my mother's handedness due to the above.) There was a rather long period of history where we did discriminate based on hair color. 

And that's without going into the 'Jews have dark hair and eyes' idiocy. Because that one was used as an identifier during WW2. (My great-grandmother tricked a Nazi once by having -would you believe!- blond hair and blue eyes. Also perfect French.)

Just because it's stupid, do not expect humanity not to use it to discriminate...

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[maxal]

9 hours ago, Nymeros said:

That doesn't support your argument. Simply because Alethi don't typically discriminate based on skin doesn't mean they dont identify people by racial features....they do it all the time.

Kaladin about Lopen: The man had brown hair and deep tan skin just a shade too dark to be Alethi.

Kaldin about Sigzil: He had dark brown skin and black hair - that meant he was Makabaki, from southwestern Roshar........Foreigners were common in bridge crews - those who didn't fit in often made their way to the crem of the army.

It isn't a matter of Alethi "not typically discriminate based on skin color", it is a matter of Alethi "not discriminating based on skin color", as in "not at all". As such they do not often comment it. Sure it does not mean they never notice it, but it isn't something which is important enough for them to comment on most of the time. For instance, nobody never says a thing about Adolin's skin color even if it is paler, but everyone comments on his hair color. The signs of blood impurity isn't skin color, but hair/eye color.

My comment is entirely supported by the WoB I have provided: Alethi just aren't concerned by skin color.

Therefore, within the greater discussion as to why in-world artists did not draw Shalash as "very dark skinned", I would argue for them, this isn't a transgression. It isn't important.

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think we are supposed to be getting a 'Venus' vibe. Otherworldly beauty, tremendous power and grace, etc. Better question: why is she wearing clothes at all? Like Venus, since she is known for her beauty and passion, I think many depictions would have her unclothed. (You can look up 'The birth of Venus' online. It's a famous piece.)

I think the in-world artist wanted to draw her naked (like many RW depictions of Venus), but the Vorin pushback was too strong so he put her in a translucent dress, with a hint of her safe hand, instead.

In RL you just can't get away with putting a naked woman on the inside cover of OB...

 Ah great explanation, thank you. I agree a naked woman on the inside cover of OB wouldn't have been acceptable... I mean not if there isn't a naked male to balance it out Sorry, I had to say it, just kidding 

[Morsk]

Something that never works for me, is that in-world they're considered angelic, almost divine, and worshiped. I'm guessing Brandon chose Herald because it's a synonym for messenger, and "angel" also means "messenger". But even understanding that, I can't think of a Herald as anything but an important person with magic. They've been humanized too much, starting with the Prelude.

[ScavellTane]

6 minutes ago, Morsk said:

Something that never works for me, is that in-world they're considered angelic, almost divine, and worshiped. I'm guessing Brandon chose Herald because it's a synonym for messenger, and "angel" also means "messenger". But even understanding that, I can't think of a Herald as anything but an important person with magic. They've been humanized too much, starting with the Prelude.

I always thought that they just herald the coming of the desolations.

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

It isn't a matter of Alethi "not typically discriminate based on skin color", it is a matter of Alethi "not discriminating based on skin color", as in "not at all".

You seem to have somehow lost the plot....this discussion is not about whether the Alethi discriminate based on skin color. This is about whether the Alethi identify races based on skin colors. Here's the comment you made that I took issue with:

21 hours ago, maxal said:

Alethi do not care about skin color, hence they will not differentiate races based on it.

Which was said in response to my reply:

Quote

They do have a concept of race since they use skin color and physical features to determine people's likely ethnic and national origins, right?

to Aleksiel's comment:

22 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

I'm not sure alethi have a concept for race.

Are we back on the same page? I posted comments where Kaladin clearly uses skin color to identify and assign race. "Too dark skinned to be an Alethi."

Quote

As such they do not often comment it.

They do all the time though, especially when theyre trying to identify where a person is from.

Here's how Dalinar describes Radiant that he meets:

Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight? His skin was dark brown, like a Makabaki, and He had short black curly hair.

Unlike her companion, she had light skin-not pale like someone from Shinovar, but a natural light tan, like an Alethi.

The man turned; his skin was tan and his hair dark like an Alethi.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Morsk said:

Something that never works for me, is that in-world they're considered angelic, almost divine, and worshiped. I'm guessing Brandon chose Herald because it's a synonym for messenger, and "angel" also means "messenger". But even understanding that, I can't think of a Herald as anything but an important person with magic. They've been humanized too much, starting with the Prelude.

An "important dude with magic" will be a decent accurate definition of "angel" in the modern society

[SilverTiger]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

An "important dude with magic" will be a decent accurate definition of "angel" in the modern society

Not really... angels are spiritual beings, who technically do not have a physical form. They can't die, are very powerful, and work for God. The Heralds, from a Vorin viewpoint, are the same as angels. From a cosmere-aware 17th-sharder's viewpoint, they are completely distinct.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, SilverTiger said:

Not really... angels are spiritual beings, who technically do not have a physical form. They can't die, are very powerful, and work for God. The Heralds, from a Vorin viewpoint, are the same as angels. From a cosmere-aware 17th-sharder's viewpoint, they are completely distinct.

Angels just look inhuman. And they do have forms; only God lacks any. They don't actually have power; God gives it to them as needed. And they have no free will; in many ways we have more power than they. We can change and grow; they are static.

And angels can die; when their task is complete they cease to exist.

[Argent]

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@Argent I'm guessing you don't know any older Eastern Europeans who believe red hair is the sign of the devil? Also green eyes. And God forbid you should be left handed! (My grandmother switched my mother's handedness due to the above.) There was a rather long period of history where we did discriminate based on hair color. 

*sigh*

Is this a useful and meaningful reply to this conversation? You can probably find a counterexample to anything I say, but does that contribute? My experience tells me that the vast majority of people on Earth do not discriminate based on hair color, beyond the occasional ginger or blonde joke, and those are rarely serious. Which would've made comparison from earlier at least understandable to most people here, which in turn would make your pedantic reply... unnecessary. 

Do I need to try to choose a better example - perhaps Hitchhiker's thumb? Earlobe connectedness? Or will you shoot these down for the sole purpose of proving how wrong I am?

[SilverTiger]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Angels just look inhuman. And they do have forms; only God lacks any. They don't actually have power; God gives it to them as needed. And they have no free will; in many ways we have more power than they. We can change and grow; they are static.

And angels can die; when their task is complete they cease to exist.

Where did you learn all that? Because that's not what I learned in Theology class.

[Yata]

Just now, SilverTiger said:

Not really... angels are spiritual beings, who technically do not have a physical form. They can't die, are very powerful, and work for God. The Heralds, from a Vorin viewpoint, are the same as angels. From a cosmere-aware 17th-sharder's viewpoint, they are completely distinct.

The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows.

Of course the real world doesn't follow the Realmatic Theory but in the end the Heralds are highter beings.

They "work" for a god, Honor May be worth of workship or not...but he had a godly Power.

By the way, if you know how something/someone works (an angel for example) you Will see It no more in the same way. Spren are for example really Angelic beings for the our religious PoV (they are Sapient emanations of godly Power).

The Heralds (like every other CS) are Just HumanSpren After all' so It's not really different

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

I was pointing out that the 'not discriminate based on hair color' is a recent phenomena. When you know little girls who try to paint their hair black so 'grandma will like me' it still feels very present. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way. It was 2AM and I may not have been as clear as I intended.

@SilverTiger I learned it from my teachers over 13 years of Jewish religious studies. I'm not certain which theology you studied, but the above was from mine.

Did you know angels don't speak Aramaic? 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613