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[OB] Inside cover art!! Finally!


Overlord Jebus

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17 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Right, so, are there any pictures of the back two pages? Because I really wonder what Jezrien and Vedel will look like.

There are no pictures of the back endsheets, not yet. I am getting the impression that Tor will show them off before to release, but I don't have a good reason to believe that - just a vibe.

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I am curious at vorin prudeness clashing with depicting an herald in a very revealing outfit. I mean, she's the herald of beauty among other things, but that safehand would be scandalous even for a commoner. Not to mention the legs. The books so far are unclear on what's the status of female legs, but we've never seen any woman showing even an ankle (not intentionally at least; clothing damage does not count), so I assume legs are as taboo as they were in victorian england. Which is, as scandalous as that thinly veiled safehand, possibly more. And yet, if this was made by dandos the oilsworn, it must have been officially approved by the church. Maybe they make a special exception just for her? Maybe there are historical accounts of shallash going around like that, and the church could not say that she should have not, but also could not say that it was ok to ddress like that, so they said that only shallash, being shallash, can.

Or maybe they made an exception because it's the only thing ardents are allowed that can pass for porn :D

I am also curious at her being barefeet. Why was she depicted barefeet? It certainly does not seem to fit the rest of the dress. Does bare feet have a special significance in vorin church?

Ishar... well, Ishar is just doing a "look at me, I'm awesome" pose. It certainly is achieving its effect, but I worry about the people in the background.

What surprises me more are the moons. We were told that they were small and close to the planet, so I always imagined irregular moons, like thebe or amalthea. The fact that they are round means that they must be big enough to become rounded under the force of their own gravity, which means a minimum diameter around 500 kilometers. Which means they must be really BIG when seen from the planet, because they are very close: it was calculated that the only thing consistent with their behavior is that they are in an elliptical orbit of the duration of one day and running opposite the rotation of the planet, so that they can cross the whole horizon in a couple hours during the night; they would also be high in the sky during the day, but they'd be invisible against the greater light of the sun. But moons that big would be viisible also during the day.

Also strange is that they are heavily cratered. You can estimate the age of celestial bodies by looking at how many craters they have, and those moons are ancient. However, roshar is fairly new by geological standards; the orbit of the moons are not stable in the long run, they can't be older than a few million years. I always assumed the shards made new moons, but maybe they just grabbed some dwarf planet and put them there in orbit? But why?

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3 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Could the lights around Ishar's legs be gloryspren?

I don't think so, they manifest as golden spheres, I think around the person's head. 

2 hours ago, Yata said:

I am a bit surprised by the Arts, Ishar isn't dark skinned and I honestly believed all' the Heralds were dark skinned. (From Nalan, Taln and Ash)

Not all the Heralds need to be :) There are plenty of nations on Roshar who are lighter, or even light skinned. Plus, we still don't know if the Heralds are native...

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7 hours ago, Yata said:

I am a bit surprised by the Arts, Ishar isn't dark skinned and I honestly believed all' the Heralds were dark skinned. (From Nalan, Taln and Ash)

I'm actually more surprised that Shalash is depicted with dark skin. I would have expected all of the Heralds to have been depicted as Alethi as that's Amaram expected them to appear. This suggests to me that Vorin artwork of the Heralds depicts them that way, much like how Christian artwork of Jesus typically depicts him as being white despite how absurd that is.

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Are these guys supposed to be black skinned? 

It's hard to tell from the art gorgeous as these pieces are!

 

Regardless, I'm going for Ishar and Ash. Ishar is the maddest of them all and is Tezim for sure!

 

The guys too old to be Jezrien or Honor (who are both young dudes).

 

Edit:

@BlackYeti

Are these in world paintings?

Edited by Nymeros
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6 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

@BlackYeti

Are these in world paintings?

Yes they are per WoB:

Quote

These are in world paintings done by the Oilsworn, one of the people Shallan studied when practicing her art. The actual paintings were done by the Oilsworn's real-world counterpart, Dan Dos Santos, who did the cover of Warbreaker.

There are two more pieces in the back, done by someone else, which are also in-world art pieces. They're all part of a larger theme, and are equally gorgeous.

My copies of the book haven't shown up yet, but when they do, I'll see about tweeting some pictures. You guys have missed out on some excellent art in Part One while reading the sample chapters.

Quote

These two are Ishar and Ash. The back two are Jezrien and Vedel.

Quote

Remember, these are in-world artifacts. So this is how someone painted her from their imagination, based on lore. These are Rosharan versions of the paintings of the prophets along the top of the Sistine Chapel.

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8 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm actually more surprised that Shalash is depicted with dark skin. I would have expected all of the Heralds to have been depicted as Alethi as that's Amaram expected them to appear. This suggests to me that Vorin artwork of the Heralds depicts them that way, much like how Christian artwork of Jesus typically depicts him as being white despite how absurd that is.

The term white never made much sense to me, it has no fixed meaning, it depends on who you ask and which period you're talking about. There isn't that much difference visually speaking between south europeans and middle easterners. Orthodoxy (coptic, eastern, let's include armenian, too) depicts Jesus as dark haired man with tanned/olive/lighter skin, it's difficult to tell in icons. Ethiopian icons I've seen paint him as a black man. We can't be completely sure as Jews accepted converts (Ruth is the most famous one), so his ethnicity isn't set in stone. There are naturally blond haired people with lighter complexion in the ME (albeit rare, but those are rare in southern europe, too), however drawing Jesus as blond is the oddity, not the standard from my perspective, so I disagree with your statement. Christian artwork is much more than a few countries you are probably thinking of when claiming this. But I digress.

It is interesting that a religious zealot like Amaram didn't know how artists throughout the ages have depicted the Heralds, but then again it isn't unusual for religious zealots to be ill informed. From what I recall Heralds are typically depicted as stone statues, so skin color isn't part of modern day alethi vorin art, thus Amaram hadn't considered it. The painting is old and being vorin doesn't make it alethi, so no reason to alethinize it. I was surprised how revealing the dress is, may be vorin people became more conservative in their clothing as time progressed.

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12 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

The term white never made much sense to me, it has no fixed meaning, it depends on who you ask and which period you're talking about. There isn't that much difference visually speaking between south europeans and middle easterners. Orthodoxy (coptic, eastern, let's include armenian, too) depicts Jesus as dark haired man with tanned/olive/lighter skin, it's difficult to tell in icons. Ethiopian icons I've seen paint him as a black man. We can't be completely sure as Jews accepted converts (Ruth is the most famous one), so his ethnicity isn't set in stone. There are naturally blond haired people with lighter complexion in the ME (albeit rare, but those are rare in southern europe, too), however drawing Jesus as blond is the oddity, not the standard from my perspective, so I disagree with your statement. Christian artwork is much more than a few countries you are probably thinking of when claiming this. But I digress.

It is interesting that a religious zealot like Amaram didn't know how artists throughout the ages have depicted the Heralds, but then again it isn't unusual for religious zealots to be ill informed. From what I recall Heralds are typically depicted as stone statues, so skin color isn't part of modern day alethi vorin art, thus Amaram hadn't considered it. The painting is old and being vorin doesn't make it alethi, so no reason to alethinize it. I was surprised how revealing the dress is, may be vorin people became more conservative in their clothing as time progressed.

Some very good points here. 

On Jesus' race, I wouldn't consider Middle Easterners to be white. They're certainly not black, but there isn't a simple divide between "white" and "black".  And on the subject of art, it's true that I'm not in any way an art historian (and even less so when it comes to religious art), so I'll readily concede the point here since you seem to know far more about this than I do.  I suppose that the artists depicting him would use their own race as a reference point, so what you say does make sense. Being British, I suppose the standard image of him that I'm used to seeing looks something like this, which I think you'll agree is nothing like what he would have actually looked like. (Image in spoiler box for space.)

Spoiler

Savior.jpeg

I did consider that the Oilswarn might well not be Alethi (I don't believe that we know his nationality), which is why I based my reaction on Amaram's perception. While the Heralds are often depicted by sculpture, that doesn't mean that there aren't other forms of art used: I remember Shalash slashing up a painting in her interlude, the Ardents in Shallan's Devotary encouraged her to draw the Heralds, etc. Maybe the Oilswarn wasn't Alethi, and Amaram was used to seeing Alethi depictions of the Heralds. But then that would raise the issue of why the Oilswarn would have depicted them as different races rather than painting them all as his own race.

And regarding the clothing, I'm actually not that surprised. Artwork is often held to different standards than people are in the societies that produce the said artwork. E.g. this Victorian painting of Adam and Eve:

Spoiler

Arthur_Novell_expulsion_of_adam_and_eve.

And Shalash is the Herald of Beauty, consider how similar figures from mythology are often depicted (e.g. Venus, Aphrodite, etc.).

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Yes, there is quite a bit of artwork that depicts ancient goddesses of beauty as completely nude, so an ardent painting Shalash in a revealing dress is unsurprising. Also, on ethnicities, Alethi are not "white", they are actually more Pacific-islander-colored, so think darker tan. Shalash may well be a good example of what Alethi skin-color is. Ishar's coloring may be skewed because of the moonlight (blue) and shadows.

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18 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Vedel is a very interesting choice.

The other three represent our main KR so far (Bondsmith, Lightweaver, Windrunner,) but Lift, for as much as I lover her, does not strike me as someone the general audience is going to know much about, if even remember.  (In other words, not a main character.)

So could this mean that either

1. We're going to get a prominent Edgedancer in Oathbringer.  (The Adolin revives his blade and becomes an Edgedancer theory is pretty popular.)

or

2. Lift enters the main story earlier than expected.  (This is, of course, the best of all possible things that can occur in Oathbringer :P)

Heck, why not combine them both and have Lift train/buttrace Adolin around Urithiru.

Vedel being one of the represented Heralds as opposed to Nale is an odd choice which could have for result to steer the speculation machine... Lift's status, going into OB, is supposed to be interlude character: based on the structure posts Brandon posted she isn't allowed more than one or two viewpoints. Hence the idea she may enter the main narrative now doesn't seem to hold the road with the proposed plan. Unless she does so as a minor character, but this too seems unlikely. Lift appears as one of Brandon's favorite character and whenever he write his main/favorite characters, they don't often take the backseat.

So yeah, it is easy to get really excited as Adolin remains the next most likely Edgedancer, especially with so many quotes in Edgedancers drawing a parallel into Adolin. It however is such a popular theory, it is way too easy to get needlessly excited about it, the disappointed when it doesn't happen.

So all in all, I don't think Vedel means more Lift because this isn't supposed to be the plan. I am hoping it means more Adolin (hoping might be an understatement), but it may be Brandon will throw a curve ball and just write a major arc for Lift in OB, despite it not being the plan. Maybe she is the interlude novella character even if it makes little sense.

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 @BlackYetiI agree it's highly unlikely (if not impossible) Jesus looked like that. But that's British way of presenting him as you said, which isn't representative for Christian art as a whole, however I don't claim  professional level. The depiction you presented may be usual for you, but is far from what I'm used to. Here's two examples from Eastern Orthodox:

Spoiler

 

iisus-hristos.jpg


 


 

Spoiler

 

pantocrator_large.jpg


 

I've seen lighter and darker, too. It depends on the overall coloring the artist used.

42 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I did consider that the Oilswarn might well not be Alethi (I don't believe that we know his nationality), which is why I based my reaction on Amaram's perception. While the Heralds are often depicted by sculpture, that doesn't mean that there aren't other forms of art used: I remember Shalash slashing up a painting in her interlude, the Ardents in Shallan's Devotary encouraged her to draw the Heralds, etc. Maybe the Oilswarn wasn't Alethi, and Amaram was used to seeing Alethi depictions of the Heralds. But then that would raise the issue of why the Oilswarn would have depicted them as different races rather than painting them all as his own race.

He probably based Ash's skin on lore. That being said, I'm not sure alethi have a concept for race, I read them as ethno-centric and everybody non-alethi is judged based on religion and eyecolor.

45 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

And regarding the clothing, I'm actually not that surprised. Artwork is often held to different standards than people are in the societies that produce the said artwork. E.g. this Victorian painting of Adam and Eve:

 

46 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

And Shalash is the Herald of Beauty, consider how similar figures from mythology are often depicted (e.g. Venus, Aphrodite, etc.).

Well yes, but Eve was supposed to be naked in the garden. However I agree art often challenges social norms and beautiful women are often depicted with little clothing.

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3 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Yes they are per WoB:

Thank you!

 

Which makes me wonder if they are supposed to be black or just super racially ambiguous. No ideas what the oilsworn are or where they came from.

 

Cannot wait for my book to arrive! These paintings look better than M.Whelan cover.

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

The term white never made much sense to me, it has no fixed meaning, it depends on who you ask and which period you're talking about.

The meaning is relative to the area where it's used but I'm not sure why that would cause confusion.

 

You know, if on earth, Im sure the Alethi would likely refer to themselves as white. However in the books they always use tan if I'm remembering correctly. Sanderson is an American author though so generally he'll come from an American perspective.

58 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

He probably based Ash's skin on lore. That being said, I'm not sure alethi have a concept for race, I read them as ethno-centric and everybody non-alethi is judged based on religion and eyecolor.

They do have a concept of race since they use skin color and physical features to determine people's likely ethnic and national origins, right? Or am i misunderstanding what race is?

Edited by Nymeros
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Just now, Nymeros said:

They do have a concept of race since they use skin color and physical features to determine people's likely ethnic and national origins, right? Or am i misunderstanding what race is?

Alethi do not care about skin color, hence they will not differentiate races based on it. It is why there are little comments being made on each character's respective skin tones, stuff such as Adolin and Renarin being paler than most Alethi never gets mentioned in book because none of the other character care about it. Adolin's hair color is however often mentioned because it is considered a sign of impurity, something negative.

In sorts, Alethi do not have the same racial considerations as we do on Earth. Nobody here would think less of someone because of the hair or eye color, but skin color has been a racial marker for a very long time, something we are all fighting to go away.

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20 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

I cant believe Jezrien lets her out of the house dressed like that..

Jezrien: No Voidbringer fighting until you dress properly, Ash!

Ash: Storm off (goes fighting Voidbringers anyway).

Jezrien: The teenagers these days...

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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Regarding Shalash, it feels to me that her facial features seem slightly Asian. Did anybody else get the feeling?

One cool thing I like about her image is that it feels rather unusual for fantasy. With that moon in the background and the flat landscape, I could almost imagine it being used for a SF book as well - the crystal dress helped too I think. It would be interesting to get some background info on what the art is supposed to represent.

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3 hours ago, maxal said:

Vedel being one of the represented Heralds as opposed to Nale is an odd choice which could have for result to steer the speculation machine... Lift's status, going into OB, is supposed to be interlude character: based on the structure posts Brandon posted she isn't allowed more than one or two viewpoints. Hence the idea she may enter the main narrative now doesn't seem to hold the road with the proposed plan. Unless she does so as a minor character, but this too seems unlikely. Lift appears as one of Brandon's favorite character and whenever he write his main/favorite characters, they don't often take the backseat.

So yeah, it is easy to get really excited as Adolin remains the next most likely Edgedancer, especially with so many quotes in Edgedancers drawing a parallel into Adolin. It however is such a popular theory, it is way too easy to get needlessly excited about it, the disappointed when it doesn't happen.

So all in all, I don't think Vedel means more Lift because this isn't supposed to be the plan. I am hoping it means more Adolin (hoping might be an understatement), but it may be Brandon will throw a curve ball and just write a major arc for Lift in OB, despite it not being the plan. Maybe she is the interlude novella character even if it makes little sense.

My only issue with the Adolin revives his blade/Edgedancer theory is, if I remember correctly, his blade being an Edegdancer's is straight from a WoB.  Adolin doing such a thing and becoming a KR seems like it would be a major plot point, and I've always felt Brandon revealing anything related to it would be very odd.  (Why not leave it as a total surprise?  Besides the in-story hints.)

If it was a binary choice, I'd say Adolin is more likely, but with Azir and how important it is to the support of the surrounding nations, and with Lift known to be going back there (plus with Brandon saying one of the reasons for writing Edgedancer was to explain a change in Nale's personality -  implying he's going to get a role in Oathbringer,) there is a lot adding up to a bigger role for Lift, even if it wasn't originally planned.

I still like the idea of her and Adolin teaming up in a teacher/student type fashion.

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