[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27

[Starla]

I am so happy to catch some glimpses of Bridge Four today. Even though he's a radiant now, Renarin still wears his uniform and hangs around with them. And Adolin is joking with them. They seem to be truly fitting in. Now if only their windrunner would return so we can see some of those squire abilities... Rock has a hand to heal.

Oh, and Shallan lightweaving Lopen lounging in a tree was perfect.

Quote

The tower of Urithiru was a skeleton, and these strata beneath Shallan’s fingers were veins that wrapped the bones, dividing and spreading across the entire body.

This made me wonder for a moment if Urithiru could be a type of living entity, like the mountain version of a Reshi Island greatshell.

44 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Is it me, or does Urithiru look more like a spaceship every week? With enough stormlight, could it blast off to Braize or Ashyn?

I like this explanation better than mine. Stargate Urithiru, where one needs to be a KR to activate the tech.

[JoyBlu]

I haven't read any other reactions yet so here is goes . . . .

 

Oathbringer Preface
Othbringer Preface Chapters 1-27 spoiled for length

Spoiler

I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist. (1)

I needed to write it anyway. (2)

I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims. (4)

I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond. (5)

I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen. (6)

I did not die.

I experienced something worse.(7)

That moment notwithstanding, I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth. (8)

The sum of my experiences has pointed at this moment. This decision. (9)

Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those days in my childhood, where these ideas began. (10)

I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand. (12)

I ask only that you read or listen to these words. (13)

In this record, I hold nothing back. I will try not to shy away from difficult topics, or paint myself in a dishonestly heroic light. (14)

I will express only direct, even brutal, truth. You must know what I have done, and what those actions cost me. (15)

For in this comes the lesson. (16)

It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly. (17)

You cannot have a spice described to you, but must taste it for yourself. (18)

However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own.  (20)

I am no storyteller, to entertain you with whimsical yarns. (21)

I am no philosopher, to intrigue you with piercing questions. (22)

I am no poet, to delight you with clever allusions. (23)

I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. I can only relate what happened, what I have done, and then let you draw conclusions. (24)

I will confess my murders before you. Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly. (25)

I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand. (27)

As I've mentioned before, I feel like I have whiplash each week as I'm convinced of the author of Oathbringer.  This week I'm back to thinking that Dalinar is the author.  Most painfully -- he killed Evi (who loved him dearly).  That is my thought (for this week at least) As I reread the preface of what we have so far, it does fit -- although I would like to know more about his youth and Shadesmar experience if it truly is him. 

Chapter 25   The Girl Who Looked Up

The Strata is described as veins! This is so exciting.  It's carrying something.  Power? A Message (such as one would expect from writing in a book)? Is it a hidden fabrial? I tend to think that it may manifest itself in a new form -- such as the combination of of Shallan & Dalinar's powers created the map -- maybe having all ten orders represented in Urithiru will then facilitate this "message" to be revealed. But is this a good message or an evil message? The emerald cast is the color of Palah and Primary attribute is LEARNED.

Quote

It had existed for so long, nobody knew how it had been built. That did not bother them. Why wonder when the mountains began or why the sky was high? Like these things were, so the wall was.”

So what are we to question here?  What isn't normal on this planet?  The storms? The Ryshadium horses? the spren? The Shardblades?

I was disappointed with the the ending of Shallan's story-telling.  I feel like we didn't quite get the full ending.

Quote

“So, one night while the others of the village slept, she sneaked from her home with a bundle of supplies. She walked toward the wall, and indeed the land was safe. But it was also dark. Always in the shadow of that wall. No sunlight, ever, directly reached the people.”

Did anyone else feel that this line should have read "she snuck from her home"?

Color & Spren Observations for Chapter 25 spoiled/hidden for length

Spoiler

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 25: The Girl Who Looked Up

decayspren

creationspren

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 25: The Girl Who Looked Up

emerald (strata)

brown havah (Ishnah)

dark brown eyes (Ishnah)

red painted lips (Ishnah)

sharp black eyebrows (Ishnah)

Chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed

Quote

“The One watch you, near-husband,” Evi murmured. “And soften your temper.”

“Be a man and not a beast, Dalinar,” Evi said

So Evi "gets" Dalinar.  She understands him -- and "The One" -- that has to be the Stormfather -- right? I like Evi so much!

It saddens me to see the lack of passion from Dalinar because he is such a passionate man. The line he hugged her with a "limp gesture" conveyed so much.

Dalinar wondering what he would have to do to earn the ardents displeasure had me chuckling.

Sebarial!  You supply line mastermind.  You know how to play both sides and manipulate everyone -- always coming out on top.

The redness in the vision when under THE THRILL.  I do not remember this from previous THRILL experiences.  Very interesting to me.  Is this the first instance of the color red being associated with THE THRILL? please let me know if it isn't.  I'll try to search for it myself later as well. Also Dalinar "sensing a strange rhythm to the fighting, as if the blows of his sword needed to fall to the dictates of some unseen beat. " Interesting that the Thrill doesn't seem to care which side wins -- as long as there is fighting.

OK -- so I realized something while reading this chapter that I hadn't noticed before. (and I noticed it before read chapter 27 -- but after 27 and the reference to the horses -- I am wondering even more).

So -- Ryshadium horses had musicspren around them. I found that fascinating. How do musicspren compare to the rhythms that exist on Roshar? Are musicspren drawn to the rhythms? They were present in the WoK prologue when the Parshendi drummers were drumming for Szeth. Do the Ryshadium horses speak/understand the rhythms?

Ry=Rhythms

Sha=Shadows

Dium=Odium

So I know that Ryshadium =  Rhythms, Shadows, Odium is kind of a stretch here -- but that is what I thought while I was reading this chapter today. Lots of stuff going on with the rhythms.

 

Color & Spren Observations for Chapter 26 spoiled/hidden for length

Spoiler

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed

windspren

anticipationspren

musicspren

windspren

passionspren

shamespren

gloryspren (golden orbs)

 

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed

black beast (horse)

redness (vision)

blue (Kholin blue)

Blackthorn

silver on red flag (Kalanor)

silver coloring

silver leaf

slate grey

brillant white (Ryshadium horse)

silver and red (men of Kalanor)

men in blue (Kholin)

light greg eyes (Kalanor)

grey to black (eyes faded)

black smoke

seeing red

men in red

silvery metal

golden orbs (Gloryspren)

Chapter 27: Playing Pretend

 

Welcome to Urithiru Highprince Meridas Amaram Sadeas (and you didn't even have to marry Ialai)

I'm glad that Shallan found out/figured out about Kaladin killing her brother when Kaladin wan't around. It will give her time to process.  It does raise the question again what do the Ghostbloods know about Amaram? I love that Jasnah popped into her head too.  I'm guessing now that we won't see Jasnah or Wit/Hoid in part 1 at all -- if so maybe in the last chapter.

 

ok, because I was thinking about the horses . . . .

Adolin wanted to go and visit the horses -- it calmed him -- he is drawn to them.

Quote

She flipped to the next page. Here she’d drawn a rush of lines sweeping out from a central point, confused and chaotic, transforming to the heads of horses with the flesh ripping off, their eyes wide, equine mouths screaming. It was grotesque, nauseating.

But what in the world does this mean?  I knew she would find something in her drawings but I was not anticipating something this gruesome and were they regular horses or Ryshadium horses?

Spoiler

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 27: Playing Pretend

ancient spren of Odium

creationspren

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 27: Playing Pretend

short black hair (Malata)

tan eyed (Amaram)

Red (tall bearded man)

 

[Asrael]

Before unleashing your hate on young Dalinar for his crazy violence, remember that he is under the strong, direct influence of a chunk of Cosmere-Satan. An influence which is implicitly encouraged by Alethi culture and which he is already developing shame for.

[Aleksiel]

17 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

"The One" -- that has to be the Stormfather -- right?

No, I don't think so. Evi is of the religion of the long Trail like Ym, isn't she? I think she's referencing The One eventually all would become again, though it leaves something to be desired as an explanation, I admit. But I don't think she was talking about SF.

[Andy92]

Quote

“I’m not here for your plans, Dalinar,” Ialai said. “I’m here because it was a convenient place to find you all together. I’ve been in conference with my advisors back at our estates, and the consensus is that the heir, my nephew, is too young. This is no time for House Sadeas to be without leadership, so I’ve made a decision.”

“Ialai,” Dalinar said, stepping into the illusion beside his son. “Let’s talk about this. Please. I have an idea that, though untraditional, might—”

Was Dalinar getting ready to suggest Ialai take over as highprince before she cut him off?

[WhiteLeeopard]

I've only read the first 4 pgs, but will dive in anyway. 

Really interesting about Malata, seems our endless speculation from last week wasn't entirely unfounded. Although...there is a weird storm, parshmen are acting oddly, radiants are popping up for the first time in millenia, pff, what proof do we have that there is a Desolation other than these alethi nutjobs over here? None whatsoever .

Does anything think maybe the figure Shallan chased from the theater was a person (maybe GB) and the spren just appeared afterwards? Her story was fascinating by the way.

I was actually really happy Adolin finally told Shallan the truth of who killed Helaran, and have no clue why people on 17th shard are unhappy about it. Sorry, but lies are not healthy, not to yourself, and not among friends. The sooner the truth comes out, the sooner the wound can be dealt with. Otherwise a lie keeps building up and up, to the point where it explodes and hurts people unecesarily. When if you deal with it early enough it causes some pain, but not crippling pain. Finally, much better the truth came from someone Shallan trusts (Adolin) and that didn't mean any harm than someone out to make trouble and divide (Amaram or T). All in all, the truth was necesary, and better sooner than later. 

On Amaram becoming highprince, ehhh, there are pages upon pages on the shard predicting it, unfortunately was easy to see coming. 

Quote

“Ialai,” Dalinar said, stepping into the illusion beside his son. “Let’s talk about this. Please. I have an idea that, though untraditional, might—”

Does anyone else think Dalinar's solution would be for Ialai herself to become highprince? Would have been better than Amaram, and Ialai would have liked it. Alas, Ialai is too far into hatred to even listen. 

Quote

Dalinar met the eyes of Amaram across the floating map. “Highprince,” Dalinar finally said.

“Highprince,” Amaram said back, tipping his head.

“Bastard,” Adolin said.

My theory that Adolin will become the cleanup squad and remove Amaram at some point went up a few notches.

Quote

“No,” Adolin muttered, “I’m just annoyed. We’re finally rid of Sadeas, and now that takes his place?” 

Awwww. The one thing that shines about Adolin is that he is insanely protective of his people. For them he would happily walk into Damnation. Its why he killed Sadeas, because he was a threat to his family. Loved this little comment showing he basically has firmly included Kaladin into that group of people he would do basically anything for.

Shallan's story is the most interesting so far, but looks dark and worrisome.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Great Chapters this week, even if they take a swipe at one of my theories the week after I start posting them again. 

 

I think the strata being described as veins is one of the most important pieces of information in all three chapters. I've been going through WoK and WoR again in preparation for Oathbringer, and I've got a theory I'm going to try to string together tomorrow in the general thread. I know that discussion about the new chapters should be limited to here, but since that's an overarching theory that will be using mostly quotes from the first two books, I assume it's ok to post that on the regular forum and then put the two or three quotes from the new chapters in spoiler tags when I get off work and get around to it tomorrow?

 

For today, I mostly want to focus on Shallan's story. I'm not entirely convinced that it's allegory for the first humans on Roshar. Instead, I think it's more related to this passage:

Quote

"“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

WoK Chapter 36

The theft of the Stormlight is because the actors would need to substitute in something for a dawnshard, and what better substitute than Stormlight? It's familiar, yet arcane, and asking people to imagine a time before it exists is great theater. The steps fit almost perfectly.

 

Granted, there's not a lot of meat there, but it's just feels like there's enough of a parralel between the two that historical fog could have shifted enough facts so that the poem and the play are actually describing the same situation. Or they could even be describing the same scenario from two different viewpoints. They definitely seem related in my opinion though.

[Pagerunner]

5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I think the strata being described as veins is one of the most important pieces of information in all three chapters. I've been going through WoK and WoR again in preparation for Oathbringer, and I've got a theory I'm going to try to string together tomorrow in the general thread. I know that discussion about the new chapters should be limited to here, but since that's an overarching theory that will be using mostly quotes from the first two books, I assume it's ok to post that on the regular forum and then put the two or three quotes from the new chapters in spoiler tags when I get off work and get around to it tomorrow?

OB Spoilers are not allowed outside this subforum at all at this time. Post it in here.

[Subvisual Haze]

Ah good Dalinar's back to playing the ineffective politician with the Alethi Highprince clownsquad.  Until he distances himself from his old position as Alethi Highprince of War, the non-Alethi rulers of the world continue to have no reason to trust him.

Good on Adolin though for not making friends with that monster.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

12 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

OB Spoilers are not allowed outside this subforum at all at this time. Post it in here.

Thanks

[dvoraen]

So I'm one of those thinking that one of the Unmade was captured and imprisoned at Urithiru.  We've got plenty of evidence suggesting there's a darkness hanging around, and now we have creepy -- I want to say gholam-like -- entities watching if not murdering people.

I don't think it's one of the Unmade directly doing the copycat killings, but rather something one of the Unmade 'Voidbound' into doing that kind of work.  We know it's possible for them to enslave entities with their powers (the listener race, Sja-anat's touch on spren), so it stands to reason it could be happening here as well.  Plus, we still have some Unmade that haven't even been named -- perhaps "defined" is a better choice of words, since people describe them as "spren" -- to us readers.  I still hold that they embody Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual destruction, though.

1. Yelig-nar -- likely Physical destruction (slaughtering all of Nohadon's men of words by "breaking into the chancery" which implies Physical Realm interaction)
2. Moelach -- likely Spiritual destruction ("his touch seeps into a soul...")
3. Re-Shephir -- likely Physical destruction (Midnight Essence)
4. Dai-gonarthis -- likely Cognitive destruction ("holds my sorrow and consumes it")
5. Nergaoul -- likely Cognitive destruction (The Thrill overriding sense and morality)
6. Sja-anat -- possibly Spiritual destruction (changing Identity(?) to something else)
7. ???
8. ???
9. ???

[Pattern]

Spritual destruction -

Spoiler

lets go to unpublished works thread. This week's Dragonsteel Prime chapter has some meaty stuff on this.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Pattern

[uncas]

2 hours ago, Belzedar said:

Stormlight? Are these gemlike veins a stormlight power distribution grid?

Is it me, or does Urithiru look more like a spaceship every week? With enough stormlight, could it blast off to Braize or Ashyn?

I've been getting Stargate Atlantis vibes since the preview chapters started...

Edited October 24, 2017 by uncas

[Todesengel]

1 hour ago, JoyBlu said:

Quote

“So, one night while the others of the village slept, she sneaked from her home with a bundle of supplies. She walked toward the wall, and indeed the land was safe. But it was also dark. Always in the shadow of that wall. No sunlight, ever, directly reached the people.”

Did anyone else feel that this line should have read "she snuck from her home"?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/sneaked-vs-snuck 

[Calderis]

Well. Finally got the chance to finish the chapters. Haven't read any posts. 

Epigraphs... Probably wrong but feels like Dalinar. 

Holy crap, Shallan's Lightweaving is... Pretty amazing. The mimic... I feel like it's the production of an Unmade, but not one itself. I'm guessing there are more than one, and this is another thing like the Midnight Essence. 

The Blackthorn is amazing and frightening. And my biggest takeaway from the flashback is that Dalinar was doing what he felt was required of him, but at that point at least, there didn't seem to be any love for Evi. 

"They like to see what's inside." well that's ominous. 

[bo.montier]

I think the Shallan/Kaladin conversation is going to come at some point, or at least Shallan is going to confront inside of herself that it isn't Kaladin's fault that he killed Helaran. Kaladin himself would say, now, that Amaram wasn't worth saving, that he had been tricked, etc.

I wonder if Shallan will give herself a chance to go through that process, though. I could see it going either way. I don't know that Adolin should be blamed for telling Shallan about Kaladin, that was the first he'd heard that Amaram had killed her brother, his shock that that was why she disliked/hated Amaram could very well have overcome his better sense. 

 

[vividox]

I feel like the epigraphs are Shallan at this point.

[Leyrann]

6 minutes ago, vividox said:

I feel like the epigraphs are Shallan at this point.

Could you explain on that?

[Frostlander]

Quote

It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly. You cannot have a spice described to you, but must taste it for yourself. However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own. I am no storyteller, to entertain you with whimsical yarns. I am no philosopher, to intrigue you with piercing questions. I am no poet, to delight you with clever allusions. I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. I can only relate what happened, what I have done, and then let you draw conclusions. I will confess my murders before you. Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly. I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand.

3

I'm still thinking it's Evi, maybe even more now. The passage about Experience suggests the One in Iriali/Riran religion and hints at possible heretical views if taken too far. The lack of confidence in her intellectual abilities reminds me of Navani and Ialai dismissing her and Adolin recalling that she admired Ialai's wit. And she and her brother appeared practically out of nowhere, shardplate thieves on the run. Did they kill people, possibly for some greater good? Did Evi kill Toh? And who knows, it's even possible that she was a tidereader (and that they are legit), have access to visions, and can see beyond...

[vividox]

8 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Could you explain on that?

1) The author can travel to Shadesmar.
2) "I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth." - Who else has as storied of a youth as Shallan? 
3) "Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those day in my childhood." - The heresy sounds like a relatively new self-discovery. Perhaps during the events of Oathbringer.
4) The author has lots secrets to divulge.
5) "I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. I can only relate what happened, what I have done, and then let you draw conclusions." - This one, admittedly, doesn't really fit Shallan. I could she her saying something like this directly to Jasnah, for instance, but not to an open audience. It's possible the preface to Oathbringer is an open letter from Shallan to Jasnah, but that feels like a stretch. 
6) "I will confess my murders before you." - This one is big. Dalinar has killed so many people in combat, but this sounds much more personal and isolated.
7) "I have killed someone who loved me dearly." - Her father. 
8) "I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand." - Again, sounds like newfound heresy.

[CaptainRyan]

Two items of note:
1. Is Elhokhar having an affair? That mention of Kalami as always scribing for him recently set off alarm bells in my head.

<EDIT> I searched WoK and WoR for Kalami and it turns out she was General Teleb's (the Oldblood's) wife. I believe he died in the battle of Narak. So, she was lonely, he (Elhokar) was lonely... maybe? </EDIT>

2. Where the heck did the red herring of May Aladar go?

 

3 hours ago, Andy92 said:

Was Dalinar getting ready to suggest Ialai take over as highprince before she cut him off?

I thought the same thing!

Edited October 24, 2017 by CaptainRyan

[vividox]

4 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

1. Is Elhokhar having an affair? That mention of Kalami as always scribing for him recently set off alarm bells in my head.

That's where my mind went, too. Honestly, he hasn't even seen his wife since the beginning of Stormlight, so it makes sense. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by vividox

[Harbour]

I wasnt so sad having zero Kaladin's chapter. Here the few thoughts:

1)Shallan's story was pretty instensive and interesting. I wonder what if the tale is about young Shalash. White hairs are the hint.

2)Dalinar is savage. He wanted to kill his brother. Holy rust!

3)Wait a minute! The copycat murderer now became an absolute mystery. So IT copycats not only murders, but also wounds? Thats became confusing now.

Id assume there is not so much murders in the Alethi warcamps. But wounds, im sure, much more, random or intentionally inflicted. IF copycat murderer copies even wounds, then the cases of wounds inflicted shoud be doubled! Id assume there should be dozens of cases around the whole Urithiru then every day, and everyone would know about that! But everyone seemed pretty calm and quiet.

4)Ah, they have gotten the word from Kaladin. I expected there will be a dramatic conclusion of bunker's scene, but it seemed everything went well for Kaladin and Parshendi since he was able to send the word, and they went further after the Storm.

5)Yeah, i wonder was Malata's mention of Spark a totally made up story created by Taravangian. I mean, she mentioned Spark but Brandon made an emphasis on the lack of Spark's presence. Right now nothing besides Taravangian and Malata's words indicates that Malata is true Dustbringer, not just a liar with Dusbtringer's Honorblade.

And damnation she is annoying with this "sister".

6)I feel Brandon dropped this quote in the same chapter with Shallan learning about Kaladin's relation to Helaran's death with a certain intention. It was a foreshadowing.

Quote

But the uncomfortable truth was that she didn’t know why, or how, her brother had fallen to Amaram. She could almost hear Jasnah whispering to her: Don’t judge without more details.

7)You know what, i thought i knew Adolin from the feet to the ears. But in OB Adolin changed my view on him. He is really practical and flexible guy. I wouldnt be surprised he dropped the info about Kaladin killing Helaran with a certain intentions in mind, not because he is too of a simple man who doesnt understand the human's feelings and when he need to keep his mouth shut.

Overall very informative and interesting chapters. Now we need to wait another week. Dammit.

[vividox]

8 minutes ago, vividox said:

1) The author can travel to Shadesmar.
2) "I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth." - Who else has as storied of a youth as Shallan? 
3) "Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those day in my childhood." - The heresy sounds like a relatively new self-discovery. Perhaps during the events of Oathbringer.
4) The author has lots secrets to divulge.
5) "I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. I can only relate what happened, what I have done, and then let you draw conclusions." - This one, admittedly, doesn't really fit Shallan. I could she her saying something like this directly to Jasnah, for instance, but not to an open audience. It's possible the preface to Oathbringer is an open letter from Shallan to Jasnah, but that feels like a stretch. 
6) "I will confess my murders before you." - This one is big. Dalinar has killed so many people in combat, but this sounds much more personal and isolated.
7) "I have killed someone who loved me dearly." - Her father. 
8) "I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand." - Again, sounds like newfound heresy.

And to be perfectly fair, a lot of these same arguments work for Dalinar as well. Especially if he murdered Evi and is characterizing his acquisition of Oathbringer as a murder. 

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, Harbour said:

5)Yeah, i wonder was Malata's mention of Spark a totally made up story created by Taravangian. I mean, she mentioned Spark but Brandon made an emphasis on the lack of Spark's presence. Right now nothing besides Taravangian and Malata's words indicates that Malata is true Dustbringer, not just a liar with Dusbtringer's Honorblade.

Spren are often invisible to those they're not bonded with. Just like Bridge Four typically can't see Syl.