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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27


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16 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

I don't mean to insult anybody, and I don't think that people criticize Shallan "only" because of her gender. But we all live in a world in which women's accomplishments are seen as less deserved then men's, and in a bunch of different fan communities I've seen a dynamic play out where the successes of a female character are seen as less believable than more successful male characters. I think unconscious assumptions about gender (which we all have, me included) play into that.

I think I may have been the one to start the topic as you say, although not sure. Nevertheless let me clarify some things.

1. I am a woman

2. I am actually quite a feminist

3. However, my feminist ideas mean the following: I want to see women, both IRL and in fiction succeed. But. I do not want to see women suceed because they are women, so things are given to them for free. I want to see women suceed because they are good and they earn them. To give things for free to a woman "because she is a woman" isn't feminism or fairness from my POV. Its actually a huge insult to the women, as you seem to be implying they are worse than men and need to be given stuff for free to be able to gain anything. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a very extended view in today's world, where feminism is that women should be given everything for free even if they don't have the skills to back it up.

I haven't read many of the posts after this, so I'm not sure how the discussion has progressed.

 

I actually think that Shallan is not too insanely accomplished. As she has her reasons for having gotten so far (illusions and lightweaving go a lot deeper than what your eyes can sense). And because from what we have seen on OB Shallan is preparing for a mental meltdown. Dalinar seems insanely accomplished, but he has 50 years of experience to back it up. And even then he has some huge gaps in his knowledge and abilities. Kaladin is kind of insanely accomplished, (warrior, surgeon, strategist etc). I guess we could say he is just very imaginative...but its possible he is the closest to mary sue around here. Still, going back to Shallan, if she doesn't have a big fail soon I would find it unrealistic.

Added after having read the posts.

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think I may have been the one to start the topic as you say, although not sure. Nevertheless let me clarify some things.

1. I am a woman

2. I am actually quite a feminist

3. However, my feminist ideas mean the following: I want to see women, both IRL and in fiction succeed. But. I do not want to see women suceed because they are women, so things are given to them for free. I want to see women suceed because they are good and they earn them. To give things for free to a woman "because she is a woman" isn't feminism or fairness from my POV. Its actually a huge insult to the women, as you seem to be implying they are worse than men and need to be given stuff for free to be able to gain anything. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a very extended view in today's world, where feminism is that women should be given everything for free even if they don't have the skills to back it up.

I haven't read many of the posts after this, so I'm not sure how the discussion has progressed.

I like your criteria :) and I think this is a very important discussion to have in this world we live in. I also think that - fortunately - most people on the shard seem to share similar core values and morals, with enough diversity of opinion and thought to keep discussion interesting but civil. The 17th shard is the only internet community I've engaged in that has unreservedly welcomed each new poster with positivity and grace.

All that said, I dont think the Oathbringer chapter 25-27 spoiler board is quite the place to be having this conversation. A separate thread within the spoiler board would be wonderful, since from what I've seen I think everyone involved is mature, level-headed, and empathetic enough to discuss this admittedly charged topic without hostility.

So as a non-mod with really no authority on the matter, could I please ask that future posts in this thread be centered on the content within chapters 25-27?

Thanks family :)

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2 minutes ago, Darkness said:

I like your criteria :) and I think this is a very important discussion to have in this world we live in. I also think that - fortunately - most people on the shard seem to share similar core values and morals, with enough diversity of opinion and thought to keep discussion interesting but civil. The 17th shard is the only internet community I've engaged in that has unreservedly welcomed each new poster with positivity and grace.

All that said, I dont think the Oathbringer chapter 25-27 spoiler board is quite the place to be having this conversation. A separate thread within the spoiler board would be wonderful, since from what I've seen I think everyone involved is mature, level-headed, and empathetic enough to discuss this admittedly charged topic without hostility.

So as a non-mod with really no authority on the matter, could I please ask that future posts in this thread be centered on the content within chapters 25-27?

Thanks family :)

Good point, sorry. Sample chapters discussions tend to twist around like a herd of squirrels.

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We see in the case of the Mistborn secret histories that there can be a surprising amount going on in the background that’s not always clear in the main text, though there are hints. We also saw that with Vin’s “luck” that it is possible to do something even if you don’t really know how or what it is. Some things can be foreshadowing of future events in the same book or future events in the overall series.

Going back to Shallan and WoR, perhaps the scene that breaks the suspension of disbelief for most readers is when she turns the deserters who about to attack her into allies. Such a thing is not foreshadowed in any obvious way and it’s not really explained properly afterwards. In tWoK there’s various points where Kaladin seems unnaturally lucky but on a second read it can be seen that this is foreshadowing his Radiant powers. We don’t seem to get this with Shallan here.

However, some things are easier to foreshadow and explain than others. Kaladin’s Surges are quite “physical” and it seems there isn’t a mental or spiritual effect on those around him. However, Shallan’s powers definitely include more subtle effects - for example, her sort-of clairvoyance with her random sketches on the way to the warcamps was confirmed as being real.

These are the only WoBs I could find on the subject of the deserters:

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WETLANDER

The bit with the bandits out there, and the deserters, and she convinces them to all go... Was she doing Lightweaving? Was she doing Transformation? Was she doing some combination?

BRANDON SANDERSON

She was... You have seen what she was doing before, done by another character.
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QUESTION

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor’s Soul?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm, that’s a good question. There are similarities, but only in that The Emperor’s Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. [...] somebody do it before. So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. No one is going to expect it.

 

Even Shallan was shocked that what she attempted worked. Pattern specifically says that Shallan used the power of transformation as well:

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“No, I mean, that was a figure of speech. It seems impossible that they’d actually listen to me. Hardened criminals.”

“You are lies and truth,” Pattern said softly. “They transform.”

“What does that mean?” It was hard to sketch with only the light of Salas to see by, but she did her best.

“You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.”

“Soulcasting?” Shallan said. “I didn’t Soulcast anyone.”

“Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm.”

This is a very strong suggestion that there's more to the Surge of Transformation than Soulcasting and that this is what Shallan was doing here. It's not proof of course but I don't see why Pattern would go out of his way to say this otherwise - if he was being figurative wouldn't he have been much vaguer? Instead he talks about transformation three times - he's very insistent on it. However, this doesn't tell us what exactly Shallan did, or how it worked, or how big an effect it had. Shallan herself considers it to be an unbelievable result though.

There's also this from the in-world WoR:

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Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault.

So essentially, the Lightweavers inspired the other Orders during a time of crisis, according to this snippet. I don't think we saw Pattern confirm or deny this particular bit though, so it's hard to say how reliable it is.

All in all, it seems that the Lightweavers have a history of inspiring others, that Shallan has had a history of inspiring others and that her success with the deserters doesn't seem to be down to luck. If so then we should reasonably expect to see such things in OB and future books. Shallan's solo play might be something that we see again, but this time with real viewers and we might see a strong effect on them, for example.

 

PS I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan's use of her personas is another case where she is combining her two Surges. ie it's more than a mental trick or skill. Presumably both effects are temporary though there might be long term effects from prolonged usage, like with many magics in the Cosmere.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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She defied Dalinar’s orders—the very ones she’d suggested—that all were to travel in pairs. She didn’t worry about that. Her satchel and safepouch were stuffed with new spheres recharged in the highstorm. She felt gluttonous carrying so many, breathing in the Light whenever she wished. She was as safe as a person could be, so long as she had that Light.

 

I'm doing my Monday lunch break reread of the previous week's chapters and I caught this.  Here she is, again, getting a little over-confident (IMO) because she has stormlight.  Something like this has been mentioned rather frequently by Shallan and I think we are getting set up for a scene in which her stormlight seriously fails her either by running out, or simply not being able to save her in some way, shape, or form.  

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26 minutes ago, Duke of Lizards said:

I'm doing my Monday lunch break reread of the previous week's chapters and I caught this.  Here she is, again, getting a little over-confident (IMO) because she has stormlight.  Something like this has been mentioned rather frequently by Shallan and I think we are getting set up for a scene in which her stormlight seriously fails her either by running out, or simply not being able to save her in some way, shape, or form.  

Given that Shallan hates herself (and has for a long time I think), I'm not sure her attitude is everyday over-confidence due to her ability to heal from Stormlight. Back in WoR she took risks with her life too even without that knowledge, though yes, I'm pretty sure that she's gotten worse here. I don't mean that she has a death wish though - more like she doesn't value her own life that highly.

I also think part of the reason is that she doesn't want to risk others (eg that coachman in that Ghostblood chapter in WoR).

I think Shallan deciding to take responsibility for her men will be important in multiple ways. I think she's quite uncomfortable with being responsible for others in the general sense (her brothers being more of a special case). It'll be interesting to see how she treats her men long term - will she treat them like soldiers or will she treat them more like an extended family / friends? Her actions at the end of the latest chapter seems to indicate that she is willing to start including them in her activities even though it'll carry risks for them. That might extend to regular guard duty as well.

 

Another thing on the foreshadowing front:

Quote

Radiant should be down there, engaging in this important discussion about the future of the world. Instead, Shallan drew. The light was just so good up here, with these broad glass windows. She was tired of feeling trapped in the dark hallways of the lower levels, always feeling that something was watching her.

This is another area where Shallan could and should take more responsibility. I expect we'll start to see her engage in such things as well. Eventually.

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The scene in WoR with the deserters was on first read the hardest to believe. But later on I sort of assumed that soldiers running from Sadeas was actually a compliment to the soldiers. Plus what kari said above of Shallan using illumination. The hardest scenes to swallow for me were actually her first alethi court meeting, and her first GB meeting where Mraize was planning to kill her. With the deserters Shallan spoke with idealism and a fairy tale view of the world, of which she has plenty and I can believe when boosted with stormlight. The problem is in the alethi court and specially in the GB meeting she needed more than a big heart, she needed a deeper knowledge of what was appropiate to say to get out on top of both situations. Which she did.

In the alethi court I can sort of forgive it by stretching facts a bit and saying her training with Jasnah and Tyn allowed it. But the GB meeting? Thats the toughest to believe for me. She has no knowledge of the underground, and that kind of bold but smart subterfuge isn't something anyone (even Tyn) had taught her or she had ever seen in action. Mraize and Iyatil did compliment her on her sneakiness very fast, and neither is the sort to give compliments easily. 

 

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I'll say this about Shallan's arc; I personally would have taken out either the deserters or the slave-traders, because it's the same basic concept and it feels pat because each time it's a pure win for her. The stuff with Tyn and the Ghostbloods read differently to me because her lies get her more and more enmeshed in this dangerous conspiracy that she doesn't have any control over. If there was a pat resolution to that, then I think a lot of her arc in WoR would feel less satisfying in hindsight.

And WL, I appreciate you clarifying where you're coming from. I hope you didn't feel called out. That wasn't my intention.

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On 10/29/2017 at 0:49 PM, Pattern said:

You are right, and that one hits uncomfortably close to home. I also always feel it easier to fight someone else's battles while fighting my own is so much more difficult. Perhaps you just found out and made clear to me what makes me sympatize with Adolin so much.

I can relate to this this insight on Adolin as well. It’s easier to clean someone else’s car/room/house than it is to clean my own.  This combined with something (  @maxal    ) said about Adolin growing up with a disabled brother made me realize how I identify with/like/care about Adolin so much.  

On 10/29/2017 at 7:06 PM, Darkness said:

My internal monologue for Kaladin:
"A shock ran through him as he realized, Oh Stormfather! I killed her Tien..." *sobs and can never look Shallan in the eyes again*

Disclaimer: At no point does this internal monologue represent real persons or opinions. It is fully a work of imagination that is not based in reality.

@Darkness this post hit me like a ton of bricks. Of course I knew the facts behind both deaths. I had never until now compared Tien to Helaran.  But that is exactly the comparison I should have made.

The loss of a brother. 

Doesn’t matter if the brother was older or younger. If you were looking out for him or if he was looking out for you.  If he left you and you couldn’t follow or if he left you and you did follow. If the brother was innocent or deeply involved in the “things of the world”. Both brothers were loved and both died in battle. 

The conversation between Shallan & Kaladin that will happen about Kaladin killing Helaran just got a lot more personal (and it was already pretty personal) for me. 

 

I’m hoping that Renarian doesn’t join the “I lost a brother” club too. (But I’m afraid he will)

Edited by JoyBlu
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Shallan handled the alethi court a little too well or they simply weren't what they were set to be. I didn't get the feeling it's full of these super clever people, who craft all sorts of secret plots and you need to always be alert. I was expecting more of a predatory environment and what I saw was a bunch of grouchy old men. So here I'm leaning towards the alethi court not living up to what we were lead to believe. 

I didn't feel there was actual danger for Shallan once she pushed through Mraize's initial statement of torturing her. It would have been a poor place to end her arch, so I never expected GB to kill her and I don't associate this arch with high stakes. Something was missing for me. 

Something I would change is have Navani figure out the Oathgate is a fabrial, that would have felt more natural.

3 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

I’m hoping that Renarian doesn’t join the “I lost a brother” club too. (But I’m afraid he will)

Oh, no. No, no, no. Just no. Brandon doesn't get to use all those fake death only to have Adolin die for real, that would be cheating at this point.

Which somehow reminds me I forgot to address what @king of nowhere said about Kaladin always thinking he could do better than the actual surgeons. Kaladin never criticize Lirin's work, who himself recognized he's good enough to be an assistant to a Kholinar surgeon, but not a full surgeon himself. Kal is letting his arrogance and childhood assumptions that he and his father are the best at this leak through his pov. You are not the only one rolling eyes at Kaladin pretending he was the one who taught Vedel healing <_<

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4 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Shallan handled the alethi court a little too well or they simply weren't what they were set to be. I didn't get the feeling it's full of these super clever people, who craft all sorts of secret plots and you need to always be alert. I was expecting more of a predatory environment and what I saw was a bunch of grouchy old men. So here I'm leaning towards the alethi court not living up to what we were lead to believe.

Jasnah did say that "It's more bluster than storm"

 

Quote

I didn't feel there was actual danger for Shallan once she pushed through Mraize's initial statement of torturing her. It would have been a poor place to end her arch, so I never expected GB to kill her and I don't associate this arch with high stakes. Something was missing for me.

For the first meeting with Mraize, I think she would have been in serious danger if she had acted like a gopher (ie disposable) or made a big mistake, or maybe if she hadn't avoided Iyatil's tail. I wouldn't be surprised if Mraize already suspected that Shallan might have bumped off Tyn. From Mraize's point of view, he's not a two-bit criminal leading a bunch of disposable types, so he wouldn't kill someone with potential which is why he gave Shallan a test. On the second meeting, he had thought she had failed and so was disappointed. I think she would have been in real danger if she hadn't in fact succeeded. However, she was in genuine danger when she revealed she had a photographic memory, which is what led to the cab driver being killed. So she could definitely have died there and more than once.

 

Quote

Which somehow reminds me I forgot to address what @king of nowhere said about Kaladin always thinking he could do better than the actual surgeons. Kaladin never criticize Lirin's work, who himself recognized he's good enough to be an assistant to a Kholinar surgeon, but not a full surgeon himself. Kal is letting his arrogance and childhood assumptions that he and his father are the best at this leak through his pov. You are not the only one rolling eyes at Kaladin pretending he was the one who taught Vedel healing <_<

He's not exactly humble is he...

 

PS Anyway, next set of chapters should be out very soon. It seems like Shallan's like arc with this Odium spren or whatever might well be concluded in Part 1, in which case I would expect about 3 of the remaining chapters to be from her POV or those involved with whatever she's getting up to (I would very much like to see an Adolin POV with Shallan around). I'm not sure if we'll get another Kaladin chapter in Part 1.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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17 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The scene in WoR with the deserters was on first read the hardest to believe. But later on I sort of assumed that soldiers running from Sadeas was actually a compliment to the soldiers. Plus what kari said above of Shallan using illumination. The hardest scenes to swallow for me were actually her first alethi court meeting, and her first GB meeting where Mraize was planning to kill her. With the deserters Shallan spoke with idealism and a fairy tale view of the world, of which she has plenty and I can believe when boosted with stormlight. The problem is in the alethi court and specially in the GB meeting she needed more than a big heart, she needed a deeper knowledge of what was appropiate to say to get out on top of both situations. Which she did.

In the alethi court I can sort of forgive it by stretching facts a bit and saying her training with Jasnah and Tyn allowed it. But the GB meeting? Thats the toughest to believe for me. She has no knowledge of the underground, and that kind of bold but smart subterfuge isn't something anyone (even Tyn) had taught her or she had ever seen in action. Mraize and Iyatil did compliment her on her sneakiness very fast, and neither is the sort to give compliments easily. 

 

The deserters scene worked exactly because deserting sadeas is a title of merit. Still, persuading the soldiers to fight for her with a single speech is a bit of a stretch, but believable enough. The first GB meeting... they didn't have much of a reason to kill her. She hadn't done anything wrong, and it is bad policy to execute minions without good reasons; you'll soon find yourself out of minions (it's even in the perfect evil overlord list).

the alethi court was also unlikely to work, it all hinged on sebarial backing her up. shallan took a big risk there.

All in all, none of the scenes breaks suspension of disbelief. Shallan gambled a lot, she got lucky where she needed it; other things she accomplished with her means, which are extensive (lightweaving, memory, pattern as spy/lockpick, jasnah's notes). Taking all her story arc together, she pushed her luck a bit too often, but it works fine, especially if she has problems now

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