WhiteLeeopard Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Aleksiel said: As for Dalinar and Amaram I completely agree, I hope this gets him in trouble with the SF. I was so pissed off it played like that. If Elhokar will just be nodding in the background and have no character development he might as well just die. Dalinar is an odd character in that both everyone close to him in-world and a high majority of readers see him as perfect and see every decision he makes as perfect. They often don't even forgive him for bad decisions because they think there is nothing to forgive (obviously I mean current Dalinar, with no Blackthorn hints). I've become used to this Dalinar worship, so I seldom mention it except when pointed out by others. But honestly, Dalinar has to be one of the characters in SA with a worst decision-success ratio. Lets go over it: TWoK Try diplomacy with highprinces. Fail Ignore visions. Fail Work with Sadeas. Fail Ignore Adolin's warnings and trust Sadeas instead. Fail Let Elhokar sort of rule. Fail Take directions from visions as absolute. Fail Give Shardblade for Kaladin and his men. Success Get fed up of Elhokar and take over. Success Give Kaladin a powerful position and trust him. Success WoR Start plan to get Shards from highprinces. Success although only thanks to Kaladin turning out to be a surgebinder, and came close to losing his son in the process. Decide visions told him to refound KR. Fail Do nothing about Sadeas. Fail Make plan to find Amaram's true colors. Success Decide to keep quiet of his plan to determine Amaram's true colors and not tell Kaladin. Fail Appoint Amaram head of KR. Fail Decide to go out into the heart of the SP. Success Out Amaram and not bother to deal with him in the spot. Fail Looking at it, it seems Dalinar makes 30% correct decisions at best. Which is rather appalling. I tried to be objective and look at final outcomes, and not intentions or anything else. If anyone feels I left out any other decision I can update it, I was going entirely off my memory. I'm rather lukewam about Dalinar as a character, I don't hate him, but I don't love him either, I'm sort of fond of him but I also see him as a bit of a life grenade. In general I expect him to make bad decisions upon bad decisions, specially at the start of the book. But for some reason he always comes out rosy and everyone's belief in him never shakes. Edited October 28, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: Start plan to get Shards from highprinces. Success although only thanks to Kaladin turning out to be a surgebinder, and came close to losing his son in the process. This is the one which weights the most heavily for me. For the rest, great post. I never embark into the Dalinar cult. I love his character, but he is a terrible individual. He wants to do good, but he should not be leading people outside a battlefield. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 @WhiteLeeopard I agree. Other significant failures recently include his choice to engage foreign leaders in alethi rather than their own languages despite the fact he has translators. Plus why him and not the king? That send the wrong signal that he has essentially occupied the throne, which makes one worry who else's throne Dalinar might occupy next. Also, he turned the capital of the Knight Radiant to an extension of Alethkar rather than the neutral inclusive environment it should be. I wouldn't fault Malata one bit if she refuses to cooperate and other surgebinders if they don't want to be part of this either. Dalinar's great on the battlefield and terrible outside of it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Aleksiel said: @WhiteLeeopard I agree. Other significant failures recently include his choice to engage foreign leaders in alethi rather than their own languages despite the fact he has translators. Plus why him and not the king? That send the wrong signal that he has essentially occupied the throne, which makes one worry who else's throne Dalinar might occupy next. Also, he turned the capital of the Knight Radiant to an extension of Alethkar rather than the neutral inclusive environment it should be. I wouldn't fault Malata one bit if she refuses to cooperate and other surgebinders if they don't want to be part of this either. Dalinar's great on the battlefield and terrible outside of it. Yes. But I decided not to include OB yet as some of his current decisions haven't yet "panned out". Although most of his current OB decisions seem terrible maybe some will actually become successes... How Urithiru is been used hurts my heart to see. It should have been a place for RADIANTS to be at home, to feel at peace. Instead seems highprinces rule it and KR are afterthoughts to be used and ignored the rest of the time. I suppose its reasonable that KR can't be in full control with no idea of what to do, and with 5 members. But its better to start off well than to have to fix it later on. Of course there is the thing Shallan is hunting to deal with... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said: Yes. But I decided not to include OB yet as some of his current decisions haven't yet "panned out". Although most of his current OB decisions seem terrible maybe some will actually become successes... How Urithiru is been used hurts my heart to see. It should have been a place for RADIANTS to be at home, to feel at peace. Instead seems highprinces rule it and KR are afterthoughts to be used and ignored the rest of the time. I suppose its reasonable that KR can't be in full control with no idea of what to do, and with 5 members. But its better to start off well than to have to fix it later on. Of course there is the thing Shallan is hunting to deal with... I want Nale and the Skybreakers to come kick the alethi out 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said: I want Nale and the Skybreakers to come kick the alethi out That would be fun to see . I'd also love to see Shallash make an appeareance in Urithiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starla Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 47 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: How Urithiru is been used hurts my heart to see. It should have been a place for RADIANTS to be at home, to feel at peace. Instead seems highprinces rule it and KR are afterthoughts to be used and ignored the rest of the time. I suppose its reasonable that KR can't be in full control with no idea of what to do, and with 5 members. But its better to start off well than to have to fix it later on. Of course there is the thing Shallan is hunting to deal with... Thank you for bringing this up. This reminds me of one of the early Oathbringer chapters where Shallan mentioned moving to Sebarial’s section of the tower so she could get a room with a balcony. Shouldn’t Shallan have first pick of any room she wants in the entire city? She’s the one who found the place and figured out how to open the oathgate to bring everyone there. Yet it sounds like she’s in a tiny room with a couple blankets on the floor and not much else. At least she has that balcony. Meanwhile Radiant City is becoming a colony of Alethkar. My hope is that the Kholinar oathgate will be open soon and most of the Alethi Highprinces and their armies and camp followers can return home, and the city can become more multi-national and radiant-focused. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkara Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, maxal said: He wants to do good, but he should not be leading people outside a battlefield. This right here is why I think the Diagram quote about Dalinar needing to be the Blackthorn instead of a peacemaker is correct. 43 minutes ago, Aleksiel said: I want Nale and the Skybreakers to come kick the alethi out Please yes, with Nale in full Herald mode (e.g. 7-8 feet tall). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said: Dalinar is an odd character in that both everyone close to him in-world and a high majority of readers see him as perfect and see every decision he makes as perfect. They often don't even forgive him for bad decisions because they think there is nothing to forgive (obviously I mean current Dalinar, with no Blackthorn hints). I've become used to this Dalinar worship, so I seldom mention it except when pointed out by others. But honestly, Dalinar has to be one of the characters in SA with a worst decision-success ratio. Lets go over it: .... Looking at it, it seems Dalinar makes 30% correct decisions at best. Which is rather appalling. I tried to be objective and look at final outcomes, and not intentions or anything else. If anyone feels I left out any other decision I can update it, I was going entirely off my memory. I'm rather lukewam about Dalinar as a character, I don't hate him, but I don't love him either, I'm sort of fond of him but I also see him as a bit of a life grenade. In general I expect him to make bad decisions upon bad decisions, specially at the start of the book. But for some reason he always comes out rosy and everyone's belief in him never shakes. on the other hand, dalinar is a main character. Main characters generally have to struggle through failures the whole book and only succeed in the end. Let's apply the same reasoning to kaladin: Spoiler WoK goes into the army to protect his brother: fail stays in the army to protect his men: fail Defends amaram from the shardbearer: fail helps many groups of slaves escape: fail decides to stop caring: fail (luckily, or the story would end there) decides to take control of bridge 4: success tries the side carry: fail trains the bridgemen to fight: success helps dalinar: success, but only because it was dalinar WoR becomes head bodyguard: success, but he did not perform the job all that well tries to keep his power hidden: fail (not as in "he failed to hide his powers", but as "nothing good came from it") trains the other bridge crews: success, but it must be noted that it was teft who did most of the training does not stamp the plot on the king immmediately: fail tell dalinar of amaram's crime: success fights in the arena: success (I don't count challenging amaram here because it was the king who made a bad decision) gives shard to moash, a man he knew was plotting to kill the king: epic fail takes the lead in the chasms without asking shallan: fail everything he does concerning his radiant status up until the end: fail saves the king and fights the assassin in white: epic success Basically, almost everything kaladin does in WoR before the last 100 pages is one bad judgment call after the other; kaladin mostly shines when he hit people with a stick. Similar cases can be made for all other main characters, except maybe shallan, who got everything suspiciusly right in WoR (but she got most things completely wrong in WoK, anyway). In a big epic story, main characters will not succeed until the end, and so they will all face their fair share of failures. Granted, dalinar is not good at playing politics. He is however a very honest and dedicated man. That's how he won fans. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbour Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 Absolutely agree with opinions on this page. Dalinar made some pretty bad decisions which is pretty horrifying considering he is Bondsmith and Bondsmith's attribute is Guiding. I believe Brandon does it intentionally because Bondsmith's another attribute is Pious. Dalinar seems like an opposite person to pious. He is not very good Bondsmith is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siaun Sanche Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said: I'm rather lukewam about Dalinar as a character, I don't hate him, but I don't love him either, I'm sort of fond of him but I also see him as a bit of a life grenade. In general I expect him to make bad decisions upon bad decisions, specially at the start of the book. But for some reason he always comes out rosy and everyone's belief in him never shakes. I just finished my second read-through of WoR, and I'm on board with your take on Dalinar. Here's the thing that gets me: once Dalinar hears the story from Kaladin about Amaram murdering his men, he has to make a choice whether to believe Kaladin or not. If Kaladin's story is wrong, then Kaladin is untrustworthy and has no business guarding Dalinar and his family. If Kaladin's story is right, then Amaram is a snake who poses a threat to anybody who stands in the way of him doing what he feels he needs to. In either case, Dalinar needs to decide who poses the biggest risk to his family and his mission and excise that person from his life _immediately_. Instead he plays this long extended game that gives Amaram sufficient opportunity to work some long-term mischief by alerting him to the existence of Taln and where Taln can be found, while alienating Kaladin to the point where he very nearly permits Elhokar's assassination. (Elhokar is alive because of Syl, it seems to me.) And then when he does turn on Amaram, it's at a point where he's in no position to do anything about it. People's faith in Dalinar (among the Alethi) is high because he wagered a lot of his reputation on being right about the Voidbringers and the Everstorm, and it paid off big. His other mistakes seem less pressing as a result. Even though he basically handled the situation with Amaram about as badly as he could have, this isn't weighing on people's minds as much as the fact that he said he had visions from the Almighty and it appears that he was right. In a perverse way, Sadeas's attempts to undermine him ultimately burnished his reputation. But I think at the root of a lot of his mistakes is that he's not quite the visionary (wordplay!) that he needs to be. So when he hears "unite them", he goes for the most obvious thing (unite the highprinces), and then once he learns that this has something to do with the Knights Radiant, he still treats it like an Alethi military order that he can appoint the best soldier he knows in charge of it. And now he's making the same mistake again with Urithiru, and not even considering how it appears from other people's point of view. (His other big flaw is that he's a terrible judge of character: he's quite wrong about Sadeas, Taravangian, Amaram, and Aladar, in different ways.) I should say that I have no problem with Dalinar as a character; he pretty much has to be a flawed leader so that the character arc has somewhere to go. But he's got a lot of things that he needs to work on. 14 minutes ago, Salkara said: This right here is why I think the Diagram quote about Dalinar needing to be the Blackthorn instead of a peacemaker is correct. Well, Taravangian wants Dalinar to "be the Blackthorn" because he doesn't want an united Alethkar to stand against his efforts to take over Roshar, not because he's Dalinar's life coach. Edited October 28, 2017 by Harry the Heir clarification 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) This is an interesting idea. I think it would be impossible to do without it being controversial. I think it is difficult for at least the following reasons: No view of alternatives: is something that apparently doesn't work a fail if the the alternatives would have produced worse results. Consequences: someone making a subsequent decision may turn a decision into a fail, but there is always a next move that could make the sequence successful. This overlaps with results-based analysis. Is it even fair to judge a decision by unforseeable results. Can a decision fairly be judged other than on the basis of known and knowable information at the time. Forced decisions: sometimes a failed decision can be more or less forced by a lack of palatable alternatives. Plot-driven decisions: given Dalinar's position, Brandon has to make him do stupid things to make the story come out as he wishes. As hard as the judgments are to make, judging the judgments is also suspect, but I would like to highlight some of these: 2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said: Dalinar is an odd character in that both everyone close to him in-world and a high majority of readers see him as perfect and see every decision he makes as perfect. They often don't even forgive him for bad decisions because they think there is nothing to forgive (obviously I mean current Dalinar, with no Blackthorn hints). I've become used to this Dalinar worship, so I seldom mention it except when pointed out by others. But honestly, Dalinar has to be one of the characters in SA with a worst decision-success ratio. Lets go over it: TWoK Try diplomacy with highprinces. Fail Ignore visions. Fail Work with Sadeas. Fail Ignore Adolin's warnings and trust Sadeas instead. Fail Let Elhokar sort of rule. Fail Was this something that could have worked if Elhokar made different choices? Take directions from visions as absolute. Fail Or was this a successful experiment, in that Dalinar then learned how to use the visions more effectively. The visions clearly had meaning. He tried some things, which eventually led to success. He never did anything as stupid as forming the Sons of Honor or deciding to free Voidbringers. I can argue that Gavilar deserves multiple dings for his choices about how to use the visions. I see that Dalinar made some very good decisions about the visions, particularly following Renarin's suggestion. Net double-dinging him just seems wrong. I rate the overall sequence helpful and think that the scoring should reflect this. Give Shardblade for Kaladin and his men. Success Get fed up of Elhokar and take over. Success Give Kaladin a powerful position and trust him. Success WoR Start plan to get Shards from highprinces. Success although only thanks to Kaladin turning out to be a surgebinder, and came close to losing his son in the process. Decide visions told him to refound KR. Fail Wait. Didn't they? I think it is true and maybe necessary. Maybe the initial attempt was incorrect, but you ding him for appointing Amaram later, so that would be double dinging him when this decision is actually a success. Do nothing about Sadeas. Fail Decide to keep quiet of his plan to determine Amaram's true colors and not tell Kaladin. Fail Deciding to trap Amaram and successfully executing a plan doesn't even get a bullet. Not informing Kaladin gets a fail bullet, when the only consequences are Kaladin's feelings. I think the plan to trap Amaram deserves a success bullet. Not informing Kaladin doesn't IMO. Appoint Amaram head of KR. Fail Decide to go out into the heart of the SP. Success Out Amaram and not bother to deal with him in the spot. Fail This is obvious stupidity, particularly when Dalinar could have easily disarmed Amaram, which would have made the inability to imprison a Shardbearer argument moot. I think this is obviously plot-driven. Brandon needed to continue the dramas around Amaram, Taln with the Sons of Honor, Moash's betrayal and the "end justifies the means" argument, so Dalinar had to do something nonsensical. To me, this is where judging Dalinar breaks down. Independant of the inherent problems in judging Dalinar, this accounting seems suspect to me. Dalinar successfully executes a complicated plan and gets a double fail. I could see giving him a single fail for letting Amaram go or a success for trapping him and a fail for letting him go, but a double fail seems wrong. Looking at it, it seems Dalinar makes 30% correct decisions at best. Which is rather appalling. I tried to be objective and look at final outcomes, and not intentions or anything else. If anyone feels I left out any other decision I can update it, I was going entirely off my memory. I'm rather lukewam about Dalinar as a character, I don't hate him, but I don't love him either, I'm sort of fond of him but I also see him as a bit of a life grenade. In general I expect him to make bad decisions upon bad decisions, specially at the start of the book. But for some reason he always comes out rosy and everyone's belief in him never shakes. I think you took on a challenging task here, so please don't take my feedback as purely negative, but I think your point of view affected your accounting. Edited October 28, 2017 by hoser clarification 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siaun Sanche Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 3 hours ago, maxal said: Morally this is getting very complicated.... Adolin's sense of loyalty and morality is likely to get into the way. He murdered a Highprince once and he got away with it: he might do it again. This is an interesting thought: why _wouldn't_ Adolin start thinking about killing Amaram? The situation has a lot of the same qualities that led Adolin to murder Sadeas: (a) Amaram is personally despicable, and thus in a sense deserves it; (b) Amaram poses an ongoing threat to Adolin's family-of-choice (which includes Kaladin at this point), being a scheming bastard heading a rival family who will murder to get his way; and (c) Dalinar couldn't bring himself to do it. If Adolin's still feeling under the gun, then maybe he holds off for that reason. But if he's starting to feel like he got away with it last time, then the idea has to be in his mind. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Harry the Heir said: This is an interesting thought: why _wouldn't_ Adolin start thinking about killing Amaram? The situation has a lot of the same qualities that led Adolin to murder Sadeas: (a) Amaram is personally despicable, and thus in a sense deserves it; (b) Amaram poses an ongoing threat to Adolin's family-of-choice (which includes Kaladin at this point), being a scheming bastard heading a rival family who will murder to get his way; and (c) Dalinar couldn't bring himself to do it. If Adolin's still feeling under the gun, then maybe he holds off for that reason. But if he's starting to feel like he got away with it last time, then the idea has to be in his mind. as far as both we and adolin know, amaram is not scheming against dalinar, he's not posing any threat against adolin's family or loved ones. in fact, according to stuff we know, and shallan knows, and adolin does not know, amaram should be very cooperative right now: the voidbringers have been successfully brought back, now it's time to unite. That was the plan of the sons of honor. Then again, they want a teocratic government, which goes against dalinar, bt they expect the heralds to come back, so amaram should still cooperate with dalinar. Therefore, I don't think adolin would strike against amaram in the near future. Not unless amaram starts moving against dalinar. May I also point out how shallan has plenty of sensitive information about ghostbloods or amaram or radiants that would benefit the other characters and she is sharing none of it? everyone is griping kaladin or dalinar for not having done this or that, but shallan is the worst offender here. she is trying to be like jasnah and take charge of everything, and look how it worked for jasnah: she got assassinated and her life work would have been lost, if not for a ward that she got against her will because events conspired for it. by refusing to take partners, jasnah doomed everything to failure if something happened to her, and shallan is making the same mistakes Edited October 28, 2017 by king of nowhere 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: on the other hand, dalinar is a main character. Main characters generally have to struggle through failures the whole book and only succeed in the end. Let's apply the same reasoning to kaladin: Hide contents WoK goes into the army to protect his brother: fail stays in the army to protect his men: fail Defends amaram from the shardbearer: fail helps many groups of slaves escape: fail decides to stop caring: fail (luckily, or the story would end there) decides to take control of bridge 4: success tries the side carry: fail trains the bridgemen to fight: success helps dalinar: success, but only because it was dalinar WoR becomes head bodyguard: success, but he did not perform the job all that well tries to keep his power hidden: fail (not as in "he failed to hide his powers", but as "nothing good came from it") trains the other bridge crews: success, but it must be noted that it was teft who did most of the training does not stamp the plot on the king immmediately: fail tell dalinar of amaram's crime: success fights in the arena: success (I don't count challenging amaram here because it was the king who made a bad decision) gives shard to moash, a man he knew was plotting to kill the king: epic fail takes the lead in the chasms without asking shallan: fail everything he does concerning his radiant status up until the end: fail saves the king and fights the assassin in white: epic success Basically, almost everything kaladin does in WoR before the last 100 pages is one bad judgment call after the other; kaladin mostly shines when he hit people with a stick. Similar cases can be made for all other main characters, except maybe shallan, who got everything suspiciusly right in WoR (but she got most things completely wrong in WoK, anyway). In a big epic story, main characters will not succeed until the end, and so they will all face their fair share of failures. Granted, dalinar is not good at playing politics. He is however a very honest and dedicated man. That's how he won fans. Absolutely. But a big difference is that for all of WoK and a third of WoR Kaladin's motto is "I failed". Despite this been largely due to his depression, you could still argue he is very aware of his failures. If anything he wallows far too much on them (1 book definetely counts as too much). In contrast, Dalinar deep down thinks his failure was letting Gavilar die. Everything else he usually ignores or shrugs it off pretty quickly. My problem isn't that Dalinar makes worse decisions than other characters (although his bad decisions usually have a lot bigger repercussions so). My problem is that other characters hurt for their bad decisions for a long time afterwards, while Dalinar usually forgets about them 5 minutes later, and so does everyone else around him. And personally I'd count the side carry from Kaladin as a success. He cost Sadeas the battle, but who cares for that, he got strung up for it, but he could survive that, and the most important part none of his men died during the battle. Which is arguably what Kaladin cares about. Reason he got depressed after the side carry was that he realized the point of bridgemen was to die. 43 minutes ago, hoser said: Take directions from visions as absolute. Fail Or was this a successful experiment, in that Dalinar then learned how to use the visions more effectively. The visions clearly had meaning. He tried some things, which eventually led to success. He never did anything as stupid as forming the Sons of Honor or deciding to free Voidbringers. I can argue that Gavilar deserves multiple dings for his choices about how to use the visions. I see that he made some very good decisions about the visions, particularly following Renarin's suggestion. Double-dinging him just seems wrong. I rate the overall sequence helpful and think that the scoring should reflect this. 6000 men died at the Tower. I'm always going to be very harsh on any actions that led up to it. Also, Gavilar currently occupies most despicable being on Roshar on my mind. 43 minutes ago, hoser said: Decide visions told him to refound KR. Fail Wait. Didn't they? I think it is true and maybe necessary. Maybe the initial attempt was incorrect, but you ding him for appointing Amaram later, so that would be double dinging him when this decision is actually a success Yes, I wasn't really sure how to rank that one to be honest. I sort of decided to put it into fail because as he then talked with Shallan his task was to unite the KR, not create them. But I agree that one is tricky to categorize. 43 minutes ago, hoser said: Decide to keep quiet of his plan to determine Amaram's true colors and not tell Kaladin. Fail Deciding to trap Amaram and successfully executing a plan doesn't even get a bullet. Not informing Kaladin gets a fail bullet, when the only consequences are Kaladin's feelings. I think the plan to trap Amaram deserves a success bullet. Not informing Kaladin doesn't IMO. -Wince- Okay, I will add plan to trap Amaram as success to original post. But not telling Kaladin is from my point of view Dalinar's biggest failure in WoR. It wasn't just Kaladin's feelings. It was a large part of what made him go to the Diagramists and the mess where he lost Syl. Granted, Kaladin can make his own decisions, but he wouldn't have ever done that if he had though Dalinar truly had his back. 43 minutes ago, hoser said: I think you took on a challenging task here, so please don't take my feedback as purely negative, but I think your point of view affected your accounting. No worries, part of what I love of the 17th Shard is there is always a lot of inherent respect in every post, so likewise don't take my comments in a negative way. Also, been perfectly honest I don't feel as negatively about Dalinar as it may have seemed, problem is every other character's failings are analysed under a microscope. While Dalinar seems to get a golden medal for every action he makes, which is why I'm sometimes quite harsh on him. 8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: May I also point out how shallan has plenty of sensitive information about ghostbloods or amaram or radiants that would benefit the other characters and she is sharing none of it? everyone is griping kaladin or dalinar for not having done this or that, but shallan is the worst offender here. she is trying to be like jasnah and take charge of everything, and look how it worked for jasnah: she got assassinated and her life work would have been lost, if not for a ward that she got against her will because events conspired for it. by refusing to take partners, jasnah doomed everything to failure is something happened to her, and shallan is making the same mistakes Great post. I personally hope Shallan gets a fail soon (I'm not against failures, without them story and characters would be boring. I'm against not having failures acknolwedged and learning from them). Shallan did everything too perfectly on WoR. I was actually a bit worried that SA will go down a path some authors are making a lot these days. Which is that everything the female lead does goes perfectly, while more than half of what the male leads do are utter failures. But I don't think so any more, since after the sample chapters we can see Shallan is a total mess. Edited October 28, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siaun Sanche Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 minute ago, king of nowhere said: as far as both we and adolin know, amaram is not scheming against dalinar, he's not posing any threat against adolin's family or loved ones. in fact, according to stuff we know, and shallan knows, and adolin does not know, amaram should be very cooperative right now: the voidbringers have been successfully brought back, now it's time to unite. That was the plan of the sons of honor. I don't think that's quite right, about the Sons of Honor. If that were the case, then Amaram would have gone to Dalinar at some point when he became convinced that Taln was the Herald that he claimed to be, and worked with him to learn what he could as a result. Amaram didn't do that--he kidnaps Taln and has him squirreled away somewhere. That's not the actions of somebody who wants to be cooperative. And his broader political project of boosting the Vorin church is naturally going to put him at odds with Dalinar, who is more and more disillusioned from traditional Vorin teachings. And more broadly, it seems pretty obvious to me that Ialai means to be trouble to the Kholins right now, and that Dalinar's going to have trouble with the ardents too because he keeps saying that the Almighty is dead. Both of those things have been set up in the early Oathbringer chapters. And now we have Amaram, who is a fanatical Vorin believer working hand-in-glove with Ialai? That guy's definitely going to be one of the primary antagonists in Oathbringer. Everything's already set up for that. As for what Adolin knows: he knows that Amaram is a ruthless person who has done terrible things to fulfill his objectives. He knows that there is strong personal animosity between Amaram and Dalinar. He knows that Amaram is working closely with Ialai, who has every reason to want to see Dalinar and his family destroyed. And he knows that Amaram tells convincing lies about being honorable, so any claim of peaceful intent that he makes is basically worthless. There's a lot of reasons for Adolin to think that Amaram is going to be trouble. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 From his wording alone, you can deduct that Adolin doesn't think anything better of Amaram as he did of Sadeas. Quote “No,” Adolin muttered, “I’m just annoyed. We’re finally rid of Sadeas, and now that takes his place?” He shook his head. “When I was young, I used to look up to him. I started getting suspicious when I was older, but I guess part of me still wanted him to be like they said. A man above all the pettiness and the politics. A true soldier.” [...] “Kaladin’s not going to like this,” Adolin said. “Amaram as a highprince? The two of us spent weeks in jail because of the things that man did.” Killing Sadeas could have definitely lowered any inhibitions, that he once had and he might decide to kill Amaram as a pre-emptive measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siaun Sanche Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 Just now, SLNC said: Killing Sadeas could have definitely lowered any inhibitions, that he once had and he might decide to kill Amaram as a pre-emptive measure. Yeah, that's implicit in my thinking too. He had to really be pushed to kill Sadeas, and did it in a blind fury. But now that he's done it once, it will be easier to do again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 On 27/10/2017 at 4:03 PM, SLNC said: But you do know, that "liking" someone in the context of relationships and sex, normally suggests attraction/romantic interest, right? But normal human standards Syl's attitude would be highly unconventional in some areas. She wants Kaladin to be happy and suggests forming a relationship with the ardent girl even it's a one night stand and Kaladin shows no interest. So Syl's attitude is very casual by human standards here. Syl then suggests Shallan because Kaladin "seemed to like her". If she believed that Kaladin had a deep passion for Shallan would she still have suggested the ardent? It's hard to say. Since she says "seems", Syl is uncertain about Kaladin's feelings for Shallan. Certainly she's suggesting to Kaladin that he consider a romantic and/or sexual relationship with Shallan but it's not the same as declaring that Kaladin secretly loves Shallan. So I'm not saying that Syl herself isn't suggesting to Kaladin that he persue a sexual/romantic relationship with Shallan. What I'm saying is that we don't know Kaladin's actual feelings except that for now he clearly shot down the idea and didn't want to discuss it. I'm sure that Syl will try various things to encourage Kaladin to be happy, including pursing relationships, but we don't know what Kaladin will actually do in practice. I'm expecting "something" between Kaladin and Shallan at least but I have no idea if that will actually be significant or not. On 27/10/2017 at 4:09 PM, Alderant said: This is mincing words. It’s more than inferrable at the least from the text spread between WoR and OB. And if you’re going there than you have to give short shrift to Adolin as well, since neither if them in that pair has said “love” to my knowledge. Intent to marry and even the act of courting are not definitive acts of love—especially in a series that has made repeated use of arranged marriages. How do you differentiate between a relationship that will turn into romance and one that won't really go beyond friends in practice? This is what I'm arguing about. "Like" is "friends" territory. It's not mincing words. 18 hours ago, mariapapadia said: I don't know if you meant it like this or not, but from this post I get a more Shalladin vibe, rather than Shaodilin. For me, the fact that Shallan and Adolin don;t have friendship interactions, doesn't reflet well. I expect from a healthy, loving and good relationship, that the two people in it are before everything else friends. They don;t have to start like that, but in the end I want to see that developed. I actually think that Shallan's and Adolin's relationship was more strong when they were spending casual time together, when she was noticing his passion for Shardblades or he was teaching her, rather than when they only had romantic interactions. Maybe it's just me, but for me to buy it and belive that they can work together, I have to see more of that, not just jumping around at how cute Adolin is. I hope this doesn't seem like I am militating for the counterpart, but I felt like stating "we don't know what 's in Kaladin's mind" or "how good X and Y work in a romantic relationship" is being a little biased. As @Alderant pointed out above, we haven't had any clear thought from anyone so far, but I think it's safe to asume that one former slave who's now a Radiant has a different interest in our redhead girl. I hope this is coherent enough..if not.. Sorry, but it's Friday night maybe I shouldn't post it. Also, I apologize to everyone who doesn't want any shipping wars/talks in this thread I'm not really sure about the second half of your post. What I was trying to argue (rather unsuccessfully it seems) is that there's not a big difference between the relationship developments between Adolin and Kaladin and between Shallan and Kaladin, at least so far. There's some hints about maybe something extra being possible between Shallan and Kaladin but also that what's currently there in the books is vague enough that barely any changes would need to be made to remove it entirely. From Shallan's POV, we actually had much clearer signs of romance between her and Kabsal than between her and Kaladin. With regards to friendship interactions between Shallan and Adolin, I'd say that there are quite a few already in OB: as you noted, Adolin teaching Shallan how to wield Shardblades is one. Him looking up some books and bringing them for Shallan when he noticed she seemed a bit out of her depth is another. I'd say that their general banter is another. Shallan hasn't explicitly said why she went to investigate the copycat murders but since she highlights Adolin's struggle with it (twice) it seems that she wanted to help (like she did with coming up with a plan to take down Sadeas in WoR). Adolin going to Shallan for "moral support" could be either but the actual details push it more towards the friendship side. Adolin telling Shallan to take better care of her men is another. In the latest chapter when Adolin called Amaram a bastard and was sent out from the room, Shallan immediately went after him and offered her support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: But normal human standards Syl's attitude would be highly unconventional in some areas. She wants Kaladin to be happy and suggests forming a relationship with the ardent girl even it's a one night stand and Kaladin shows no interest. So Syl's attitude is very casual by human standards here. Syl then suggests Shallan because Kaladin "seemed to like her". If she believed that Kaladin had a deep passion for Shallan would she still have suggested the ardent? It's hard to say. Since she says "seems", Syl is uncertain about Kaladin's feelings for Shallan. Certainly she's suggesting to Kaladin that he consider a romantic and/or sexual relationship with Shallan but it's not the same as declaring that Kaladin secretly loves Shallan. So I'm not saying that Syl herself isn't suggesting to Kaladin that he persue a sexual/romantic relationship with Shallan. What I'm saying is that we don't know Kaladin's actual feelings except that for now he clearly shot down the idea and didn't want to discuss it. I'm sure that Syl will try various things to encourage Kaladin to be happy, including pursing relationships, but we don't know what Kaladin will actually do in practice. I'm expecting "something" between Kaladin and Shallan at least but I have no idea if that will actually be significant or not. You misunderstand me. It is irrelevant what Syl meant, what is important is how Kaladin interprets it. He is the human here and he would interpret it as we do. Syl talks about relationships and intimacy and it is completely irrelevant how she sees relationships. She tells Kaladin, that he seemed to like Shallan, in the context of relationships and intimacy. He thinks, that it "hits uncomfortably close to the truth", which basically confirms, that he would be interested to have a relationship and be intimate with Shallan. I really don't know, what Syl's idea of an relationship has to do with how Kaladin thinks about it. 8 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: How do you differentiate between a relationship that will turn into romance and one that won't really go beyond friends in practice? This is what I'm arguing about. "Like" is "friends" territory. It's not mincing words. No. It is not. Not in the context, that Syl and Kaladin are talking about. Edited October 28, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said: No worries, part of what I love of the 17th Shard is there is always a lot of inherent respect in every post, so likewise don't take my comments in a negative way. Also, been perfectly honest I don't feel as negatively about Dalinar as it may have seemed, problem is every other character's failings are analysed under a microscope. While Dalinar seems to get a golden medal for every action he makes, which is why I'm sometimes quite harsh on him. good point here. There is however an important difference between dalinar and the others: all of dalinar's mistakes and failures can be attributed to external causes or stuff he could not predict very well. Other characters instead had intentionally failed to confront issues because they didn't want to. dalinar worked with sadeas because he trusted sadeas for their previous history, dalinar trusted sadeas in a ploy to push other highprinces to cooperate more, dalinar don't take control from elokhar because he does not trust himself to reign. On the other hand, kaladin does not confront moash with treason because he feels uncomfortable, and shallan does not confront plenty of stuff because it makes her uncomfortable. Even adolin, from the little we've seen in his POW, does not confront the sadeas accident because it makes him uncomfortable. Dalinar makes mistakes in good faith, and he is a pretty bad judge of characters, and he is politically naive, but he always tries his very bestest. Other characters have intentionally failed instead. Which I'm not fauling them for; I don't think there is anyone who never had similar issues. Dalinar is borderline unbelievable in how uncorruptible he is. At least on how he's been in the latest years; we know he went as far as getting large parts of his memory erased because he didn't want to confront them either. But the point is, there is a difference between dalinar's mistakes and everyone else's mistakes. which is not to say that dalinar should not be criticized, but I can totally understand why some people (including myself) go easier on him than on everyone else. 55 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said: I don't think that's quite right, about the Sons of Honor. If that were the case, then Amaram would have gone to Dalinar at some point when he became convinced that Taln was the Herald that he claimed to be, and worked with him to learn what he could as a result. Amaram didn't do that--he kidnaps Taln and has him squirreled away somewhere. That's not the actions of somebody who wants to be cooperative. And his broader political project of boosting the Vorin church is naturally going to put him at odds with Dalinar, who is more and more disillusioned from traditional Vorin teachings. And more broadly, it seems pretty obvious to me that Ialai means to be trouble to the Kholins right now, and that Dalinar's going to have trouble with the ardents too because he keeps saying that the Almighty is dead. Both of those things have been set up in the early Oathbringer chapters. And now we have Amaram, who is a fanatical Vorin believer working hand-in-glove with Ialai? That guy's definitely going to be one of the primary antagonists in Oathbringer. Everything's already set up for that. As for what Adolin knows: he knows that Amaram is a ruthless person who has done terrible things to fulfill his objectives. He knows that there is strong personal animosity between Amaram and Dalinar. He knows that Amaram is working closely with Ialai, who has every reason to want to see Dalinar and his family destroyed. And he knows that Amaram tells convincing lies about being honorable, so any claim of peaceful intent that he makes is basically worthless. There's a lot of reasons for Adolin to think that Amaram is going to be trouble. ok, point taken. Still, i don't think adolin will act until he will see some active threat on amaram's part. Re: kaladin and shallan: it is actually uncertain how strong an attraction there is. Consider what they've been through in the chasms. There was forced cooperation in the face of imminent death, and wild adrenaline swings, and a lot of enforced physical closeness; this sparked confidence, which in turn brought even more closeness. I am sure if I had a similar experience I would also end up with strong feelings for the girl: atraction or hate. Now, if the girl was not my type, attraction would eventually fade within weeks to months; but I would feel strongly attracted to her in the meantime, as a side effect of the experience shared. I don't know the feminine perspective, but I would be surprised if it was much different. So, nothing strange that kaladin and shallan lliked each other at the end of the ordeal. It would have been strange if they didn't. Only time will tell how it evolves, but so far I would be cautious to take their budding pseudo-romance as much more than the brain's natural reaction to an hormonal storm coupled with a lot of suddenly found mutual respect. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: So, nothing strange that kaladin and shallan lliked each other at the end of the ordeal. It would have been strange if they didn't. Only time will tell how it evolves, but so far I would be cautious to take their budding pseudo-romance as much more than the brain's natural reaction to an hormonal storm coupled with a lot of suddenly found mutual respect. Good god. I'm not trying to predict the future or something, I'm just saying, that there is mutual attraction and that it hasn't passed yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, SLNC said: Good god. I'm not trying to predict the future or something, I'm just saying, that there is mutual attraction and that it hasn't passed yet. wasn't reply to you in particular, but in general to all shalladin shippers. I'm not saying there is nothing, but I am saying that over 90% of times I've seen people start a romance in similar conditions (having shared a very intense and exciting experience, minuts the almost dead part), it failed as soon as the initial excitement died off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 2 hours ago, hoser said: This is obvious stupidity, particularly when Dalinar could have easily disarmed Amaram, which would have made the inability to imprison a Shardbearer argument moot. I think this is obviously plot-driven. Brandon needed to continue the dramas around Amaram, Taln with the Sons of Honor, Moash's betrayal and the "end justifies the means" argument, so Dalinar had to do something nonsensical. To me, this is where judging Dalinar breaks down. Dalinar couldn't have disarmed Amaram. You take his Blade away and he just summons it again. The only way to deal with a Shardbearer is death. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalrift Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Calderis said: Dalinar couldn't have disarmed Amaram. You take his Blade away and he just summons it again. The only way to deal with a Shardbearer is death. He could try to cut off his arm, but that would be difficult, if Amaram defended himself. Edited October 28, 2017 by Metalrift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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