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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27


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2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No arguments left? Very low blow.

It wasn't intended as such, more like agreeing to disagree on how to interpret the passage. Realizing you were blaming the wrong person is an emotional turn that takes some time to process. I see how want and view it as hinting hidden romantic feelings, may be you'll also see why I don't. 

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20 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

 

Who am I forgetting? I feel like it is more likly.Dalinar as his issue can be fixed with a near death experience and trip to shadesmar.

My thoughts are similiar in that we still don’t have all of Dalinar’s backstory. These things could have easily already happened in the past — we just don’t know about them . Dalinar could have had many near death experiences. 

Quote

I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen. (6)

I did not die.

I experienced something worse.(7)

The other thing that really stands out to me about the author of Oathbringer is that the author needs to have a connection to  Oathbringer the sword.  It’s easy to understand why Dalinar would write (dictate) a book about Oathbringer  — he carried the sword for decades.

Sadeas also has a valid claim for being the author because he had also bonded the sword and it was almost his when Dalinar first “earned” it .

Perhaps the author of Oathbringer is the person who ends up finding the Oathbringer sword that was tossed out the window.

 While Jasnah as the author makes sense on so many levels, what is her connection to Oathbringer? Dalinar isn’t her biological dad, is he? I know there is a WoB saying that Adolin & Renarin are legitimately Dalinar & Evi’s — is there something similiar about Jasnah? Could Dalinar be her father? We know they were close, and Dalinar did give her the shards he won.  With this published timeline  Jasnah was born before Dalinar was married but Elkohar likely wasn’t .

So Oathbringer is a sword, and now a book. What else is Oathbringer? And who has a connection to it?

Another thought I had about “I thought I was dead” was what if Evi sacrificed herself for Dalinar’s life. The pain of living with the knowledge that Evi sacrificed herself for him when he didn’t love her back could be worse than death. There is also the possibility that many have already speculated — and has been reinforced by this weeks flashback chapter — that Dalinar killed Evi while under the influence of the thrill. I’m sure we will see worse behavior from Dalinar later in the book. 

If Dalinar did kill Evi then he had to care/love/respect  her enough to feel guilt/pain/remorse/loss over her death. 

The entire Navani/Dalinar/Evi relationship is beginning to remind me of Prince Charles (the man) and his young wife Diana (Evi) and then his first love turned mistress Camilla (Navani) whom he later marries. It doesn’t help that both couples had two sons. 

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Starla said:

In chapter 25 Shallan mentions that merchants have sent expeditions to gather salvage from the abandoned war camps. What are the chances that someone finds Hoid’s flute in Sadeas' bridgeman barracks and brings it back to Urithiru? I am in a constant state of concern over the whereabouts of that flute.

@Starla I really, really, really want this to come true!

 

@Michael Portz thanks for those Odium references !

Edited by JoyBlu
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2 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Why do we think that the book is named after the sword or vice versa?

Because it was established the Sunmaker had a sword called Oathbringer and no one referenced a book being the inspiration, which would have been logical. At that time men didn't read and write, so it seems unlikely he would have named his sword after a book. 

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17 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It wasn't intended as such, more like agreeing to disagree on how to interpret the passage. Realizing you were blaming the wrong person is an emotional turn that takes some time to process. I see how want and view it as hinting hidden romantic feelings, may be you'll also see why I don't. 

Fine, but I hope you can see why I interpreted it as "storm your statements, you're biased anyway..."

I sincerely hope it wasn't meant like that.

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“I think Amaram killed my brother.”

Adolin wheeled around to stare at her. “What?

“Amaram has a Shardblade,” Shallan said. “I saw it previously in the hands of my brother, Helaran. He was older than I am, and left Jah Keved years ago. From what I can gather, he and Amaram fought at some point, and Amaram killed him—taking the Blade.”

“Shallan… that Blade. You know where Amaram got that, right?” “On the battlefield?”

“From Kaladin.” Adolin raised his hand to his head. “The bridgeboy insisted that he’d saved Amaram’s life by killing a Shardbearer. Amaram then killed Kaladin’s squad and took the Shards for himself. That’s basically the entire reason the two hate each other.”

Shallan’s throat grew tight. “Oh.”

Tuck it away. Don’t think about it.

“Shallan,” Adolin said, stepping toward her. “Why would your brother try to kill Amaram? Did he maybe know the highlord was corrupt? Storms! Kaladin didn’t know any of that. Poor bridgeboy. Everyone would have been better off if he’d just let Amaram die.”

Don’t confront it. Don’t think about it.

“Yeah,” she said. “Huh.”

“But how did your brother know?” Adolin said, pacing across the balcony. “Did he say anything?”

“We didn’t talk much,” Shallan said, numb. “He left when I was young. I didn’t know him well.”

 

Don't know about you, but Adolin's behaviour there seems like the definition of tactless to me. The worst thing is he doesn't even drop the subject as soon as he finds out and in fact he goes on to ask her questions and even after her shallow replies he still doesn't get a clue about how much she's hurting. The "poor bridgeboy" line is just the nail in the coffin, as the fact that he sympathizes with Kaladin but not his betrothed who's standing next to him is almost tragically funny.   

Personally, I find this passage to showcase the major issues between their relationship and the reason for why I think as things stand, they won't last long together. They are incredibly cute together and clearly get along very well (as well as being extremely attracted to one another, physically), but when it comes down to it they simply don't trust each other enough. On the other hand, while Kaladin and Shallan may be able to empathize with one another more, the Heleran thing may be a roadblock she might never get over to the point of being comfortable in a relationship with Kal.

So basically at this point, I honestly wouldn't be that shocked if neither Shadolin or Shalladin ends up being a thing. If that were to happen, Brandon would become the ultimate ship wrecker, though :P

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13 minutes ago, geralt said:

So basically at this point, I honestly wouldn't be that shocked if neither Shadolin or Shalladin ends up being a thing. If that were to happen, Brandon would become the ultimate ship wrecker, though :P

The common consensus I've heard is that that title belongs to the writers of Once Upon a Time. :D

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2 hours ago, JoyBlu said:
Quote

In chapter 25 Shallan mentions that merchants have sent expeditions to gather salvage from the abandoned war camps. What are the chances that someone finds Hoid’s flute in Sadeas' bridgeman barracks and brings it back to Urithiru? I am in a constant state of concern over the whereabouts of that flute.

@Starla I really, really, really want this to come true!

I had another thought about the flute. What if Sadeas had it, and Amaram finds it in his stuff and keeps it? Remember when Shallan was sneaking into Amaram's house, she finds one of the servants polishing his flutes. How awful would it be if Hoid's ancient, magical, otherworldly flute ends up in Amaram's flute collection? :blink:

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17 hours ago, maxal said:

This is the knot of the problem now, isn't it? How it isn't Adolin's story, how he is not important to the main narrative? And yet, he's the character Brandon gave a massive cliffhanger too back in WoR. He's one of the top viewpoint character and as such, SA is as much his story as it is other character's story: we can't state it isn't his story. He is right here in the middle of it, he has as many viewpoints as Dalinar in WoR. Had Brandon not want to make it Adolin's story, then he shouldn't had him murdered Sadeas, he shouldn't have given him so many viewpoints in WoR: he should have left him into the background where he planned to put him within his first outlay of the story.

But he didn't and since he didn't, there will always be readers whom are going to expect something other than "acting as a foil to Shallan, Dalinar or anyone else". There will always be readers to argue putting into into a permanent backseat just isn't the right continuity for his character. 

I personally refuse to believe Brandon purposefully wrote Adolin in a way hoping the readers would dislike his character in order to diminish his popularity. No author would/should have for goal to disengage their readers from a given character, no matter the character. Adolin is Brandon's creation, Brandon's invention, Brandon's initiative: the idea Brandon somehow devise a plan to have readers lose interest in Adolin because of the storming plan does not hold the road. It defies everything Brandon has ever said when it comes to his characters.

Thus, if Brandon wrote Adolin in a way which currently displeases me, then it must be because he has a later purpose. Not having read what it is just yet makes it hard to have realistic reactions. Still, I completely refuse to believe Brandon wrote OB while thinking Adolin is too popular and he needed to destroy it.

 

Not sure if you saw this or if this is the place to post it, but there was a reviewer on Reddit who posted a really ambiguos review of OB, because he got and ARC. Looking through his replies to others, I saw this : 

I don't think Brandon wrote Adolin only with the purpose of providing a foil for other characters. I remember him stating multiple times that he doesn't like to do that and he tries to make each character "the hero of their own story". I am sure he will do Adolin justice, but the problem is that what you are expecting from him or what you or anyone else considers "doing him justice",  might not be what Brandon has in store, so that always leaves room for dissapointments. But that's kind of the risk for everyone. 

adolin.png

Edited by mariapapadia
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A little thought experiment for fun: "Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan - friends or lovers?"

Let's assume for the sake of this example that the characters in question are all straight. Let's also assume that the society they are in is not gender segregated at all but the characters are in the same situations they were always in apart from this.

Take Adolin and Kaladin. They're friends, right? So, for the sake of this thought experiment, let's say they were of opposite genders. What would need to change within the story with the above assumptions? I would say, "not much". The development of their relationship can basically be the same. They can still be friends.

Take Shallan and Kaladin. So, for the sake of this thought experiment, let's say they were of the same gender. What would need to change within the story with the above assumptions? I would say, "not much". The development of their relationship can basically be the same. What is their actual relationship outside this thought experiment? I would say that for now it's looking like friends.

Take Shallan and Adolin. So, for the sake of this thought experiment, let's say they were of the same gender. What would need to change within the story with the above assumptions? I would say, "a great deal". Nearly every interaction they have would have to change. What is their actual relationship outside this thought experiment? I would say that for now it's looking like lovers.

 

There doesn't seem to be much contention about the first one. It then occurred to me that Shallan and Kaladin's relationship progression is not all that different at a high level from Adolin and Kaladin's. It's only Shallan and Adolin's relationship that depends on their gender - and I don't just mean the start of, as most (though not all) of the interactions that they have would not work if they were of the same gender and straight.

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3 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

There doesn't seem to be much contention about the first one. It then occurred to me that Shallan and Kaladin's relationship progression is not all that different at a high level from Adolin and Kaladin's. It's only Shallan and Adolin's relationship that depends on their gender - and I don't just mean the start of, as most (though not all) of the interactions that they have would not work if they were of the same gender and straight.

I mean, you're right, they wouldn't have been presented to each other as prospects for an arranged marriage if they were the same gender. But are you trying to say that Shallan and Adolin can't be friends outside of their romantic relationship?

9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

What is their actual relationship outside this thought experiment? I would say that for now it's looking like friends.

Well, we know for sure that Kaladin at least doesn't think of Shallan as just a friend. But they are indeed friends in addition to their attraction to one another.

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5 hours ago, Starla said:

had another thought about the flute. What if Sadeas had it, and Amaram finds it in his stuff and keeps it? Remember when Shallan was sneaking into Amaram's house, she finds one of the servants polishing his flutes. How awful would it be if Hoid's ancient, magical, otherworldly flute ends up in Amaram's flute collection? 

So I had to go look that scene up. Here it is if anyone else is interested 

Quote

“Might as well put you to use,” the cook said. “Stine wanted someone to polish mirrors for him. He’s in the study, cleaning the master’s flutes.”

Flutes? A soldier like Amaram had flutes?

Chapter 52 into the Sky

WoR

Thank you for drawing my attention to this. Since playing the flute is considered a woman’s hobby, and Amaram is not married, does Amaram play the flute, or does he collect them for another reason? 

I’ll be watching!

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To the many people who commented on my posts where I said Kaladin broke Shallan's trust, @Aleksiel understood my thoughts the best. Shallan trusted Kaladin with her confidence. She did what she never did before, she confide into someone, her who can't even think of those issues without blacking out, she spoke the truth to another human being. The amount of trust Shallan put into Kaladin is gigantic and it was, in part, fuel by Kaladin also confiding into her. To her, it mattered and while I am sure it mattered to Kaladin too, I would argue the event was more significant for Shallan. Hence, within this moment, she was in a place where she was trusting someone else with her past and, in return, she felt she was entrusted with someone else's past. Kaladin broke this trust when he did not share an important truth which concerned her. He betrayed the trust she put into him by not sharing something very important to her.

Of course, I do not blame Kaladin nor Shallan nor anyone. It isn't anyone's fault really. Even if I think Kaladin should have told her, if I think he should have find a way to tell her, I also agree it may be he intended to do it, later. Still, I do believe the fact the one person she ever trusted retained information with respect to her favorite brother is something Shallan would perceived as a betrayal. Hence, her feeling hurt are, IMHO, more a consequences of this hurt than of her having "suppressed romantic feelings for Kaladin".

To the other people who commented onto Adolin being tactless and arguing he was distracted and well, I read all the posts, it is just too long to quote them all.

My thoughts are Adolin just killed Sadeas and he is now seeing someone he sees as equally "evil" taking his place. Therefore in his head he must be ranting: "I have murdered a Highprince, I have created a mayhem and all of it, all of this stress, this pressure, this drama, it was all so Amaram could become Highprince! He's even worst, people actually believe he is honorable whereas everyone knew Sadeas was crem.". In this moment, it may be the first time Adolin genuinely starts to regret his actions, not because he isn't pleased Sadeas is dead, but because he just realized killing him solved nothing. He put himself on the line for... nothing and if I think he'd face consequences, shall they come, with honor, if he thought the end game was worth it, it might another story entirely to do it... for nothing. This, of course, is speculation on my part as we weren't privy to Adolin's thoughts. Thus, when he learns Shallan's brother tried to kill Amaram, he goes into question mode and yeah he was very insensitive and tactless and empathy-less. 

As others have said, telling Shallan the truth was the right decision. The wrong wasn't voicing it, it was ignoring she was reacting to it, it was not paying attention to Shallan and focus on his own inner dialogue.

I love Adolin, I honestly relate to him, a lot. I perfectly understand how it is to be wrapped within your own thoughts and not processing your interlocutor's reaction: it has happened to me countless of times. The fact I understand and relate to it doesn't however excuse it and the scene made me think Shallan and Adolin, despite being incredibly adorable together, despite being good for each other, despite working well together, despite everything might not have walked into each other's life at the right time. They both have their personal issues to deal with, they both have the reflect to not deal with their issues, they both try to hide their weaker side and they might never face them unless events force them too. Perhaps if Shallan wasn't so compromised by her own past she might get the worms out of Adolin and perhaps if he weren't so wrapped up into his own issues, he might find the right words to make her open-up, but as it is, it may never happened. Should they meet again in five years from now, it might go down completely differently, but Adolin will not be available five years from now. If the relationship fails with Shallan, then I am 100% convinced Dalinar will marry his son to a foreigner in an attempt to develop an alliance to one of those countries refusing to join him. Sure, he said he would never force Adolin into marriage, but when faced with the faith of the world, Adolin's happiness might be dead last within the list of priorities. 

Hence, all this to say, I have no idea if Adolin and Shallan will ultimately work out as a relationship, I think they could work, I would love if they were to work, but both characters aren't currently within the right place to make it work. Adolin also has relationship issues and this scene gives us a taste of how certain of his relationships might have end. He is tactless and while he is a naturally very emphatic individual, a very outgoing social individual, he misses many social cues, he struggles to read others reaction to himself and he is awkward. Not awkward like Renarin, more awkward in the sense he doesn't really connect with many people.

This being said, the story hasn't been written yet, so while Adolin and Shallan seems like they aren't in the right place, right now, it doesn't mean they won't find it within the course of the next book. Or the one after. It will however require "something" to happen to unblock both of them.

3 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Not sure if you saw this or if this is the place to post it, but there was a reviewer on Reddit who posted a really ambiguos review of OB, because he got and ARC. Looking through his replies to others, I saw this : 

I don't think Brandon wrote Adolin only with the purpose of providing a foil for other characters. I remember him stating multiple times that he doesn't like to do that and he tries to make each character "the hero of their own story". I am sure he will do Adolin justice, but the problem is that what you are expecting from him or what you or anyone else considers "doing him justice",  might not be what Brandon has in store, so that always leaves room for dissapointments. But that's kind of the risk for everyone. 

The post on Reddit doesn't give many indications with respect to Adolin: one guy liked the development he's got, but as you say what one reader think is satisfying might differ from another and, more importantly, it might differ from the author's perspective. What I personally do not believe is Brandon wrote Adolin with the purpose of killing his popularity, but it is true what he considers to be "satisfying" might differ from what I consider "satisfying". I am very well aware of that just as I am very well aware the chances I'll be disappointed with Adolin's story arc are... very high because I really like his character, I really relate to him and as such the background story arc he is currently getting is just not deep enough to satisfy me.

I have known for a while now the probability of myself being disappointed with how Brandon chooses to explore Adolin's character in OB was very high. Still, I retained some hope it may not turn out this way which is why I over-reacted over the last weeks as they are going towards my initial assumption. Obviously, Brandon did not write the book with the intend of disappointing me or any of his readers, which is essentially what I was reacting to within the other post. It is just I wanted more where he isn't willing to give out more. Or it may just me what I find interesting to read differs from the author and most reader's find interesting. I have been asking myself many questions lately with respect to my reading. I love fantasy, I will always love the magic, the world, the stories not bound by realism, but it may be the genre is not providing me the experience I am currently looking for. It is not normal only one character out of 20 actually speaks to me.

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The "what an upstanding guy" for Adolin, makes me think the theory that someone else will be blamed and he will come out so an innocent isn't punished in his place went up a few notches. 

It could be a sarcastic comment... but I interpreted it as Adolin owning to his actions, accepting the consequences and not allowing anyone to make the fall for him.

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Sorry if this has been posted on here before. I haven’t been able to read all of the comments yet. Wasn’t Shallan trying to hide her lightweaving abilities? She was  trying to deceive everyone by saying she was an elsecaller yet at this meeting where people who can’t be trusted were around her and Dalinar created the map again. Will this lead to someone finding out the truth of her ability.

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On 10/24/2017 at 10:48 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

Random thought #2 Last we heard, Shallan was trying to keep the fact that she was a Lightweaver hidden yet they did a big bad Lightweaving map in front of everybody. What gives? I don't think anyone would believe that it's an Elsecaller ability.

Yes, @Wittiest man alive it was brought up, but I didn’t see a post with an definitive answer. The only concurance was that yes, there were a lot of people in the room. Since Shallan wasn’t standing next to Dalinar perhaps other people didn’t realize it was one of her powers? Perhaps others were led to believe that it was fueled by Stormlight like the elevators. Perhaps no one thought to ask?

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Interesting discussion.  Thank y'all!  I am moved to speak on the Adolin-Kaladin-Shallan thing, but feel reticent as maxal has already (my judgement) likely articulated it better than I will I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. 

I think Kaladin not finding time to explain to Shallan that he was the one that killed Heleran was moral cowardice, and even he would agree. 

I think Shallan is more upset with Kaladin killing Heleran (even though it is justifiable) than his not disclosing his role.  Trying to stuff her confused feelings may well make them harder to untangle and deal with. 

Adolin has his own feelings, but he is not intimate with some of them.  It could trace back to his family situation, or be his own burden.  This makes it hard for his relationships to succeed and makes it hard for him to be with Shallan's feelings.  Until he can be with his own feelings, it will be hard for him to empathize with Shallan.  Yeah, he was preoccupied, but hopefully getting in touch with his feelings will fit with his "breaking" and allow him to relate more to others' emotions. 

Edit:  This revelation could easily have been milked for more drama.  Brandon's discipline is what gives me hope that he and I will survive to complete the series.  I think he decided to not milk more drama out of it because he has so much more story to tell.  Not that there won't be drama internal and between these parties. 

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3 hours ago, maxal said:

If the relationship fails with Shallan, then I am 100% convinced Dalinar will marry his son to a foreigner in an attempt to develop an alliance to one of those countries refusing to join him. Sure, he said he would never force Adolin into marriage, but when faced with the faith of the world, Adolin's happiness might be dead last within the list of priorities. 

Wow. Sounds like exactly what happened to Dalinar.  

@maxal, I enjoyed your beautiful, well-articulated thoughts on Kaladin, Shallan, & Adolin very much. I read your post out loud to the other people on my house who have read or listened to Stormlight and we all disagreed on the circumstances when Kaladin figured out that the shardbearer was. So we looked it up and reread it, here are some of our combined thoughts 

Chapter 74:  Striding the Storm (WoR)

Quote

“The sphere?” Kaladin asked in the blackness. “You had a sphere with you for light.” “Gone,” she shouted over the roar. “I must have dropped it when I grabbed you!”

So Shallan was not being completely truthful with Kaladin about her abilities at this point.

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“Please,” Shallan said. “I need to hear something other than that. Tell me.” He shivered, but nodded. Voices. Voices would help. “It started when Amaram betrayed me,” he said, tone hushed, just loud enough for her—pressed close—to hear. “He made me a slave for knowing the truth, that he’d killed my men in his lust to get a Shardblade. That it mattered more to him than his own soldiers, more to him than honor . . .”

Shallan asks Kaladin to tell her a story to keep her mind occupied on something other than the storm

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It gushed from him, a story he’d never told.

So Kaladin is confiding in Shallan here too. 

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He didn’t talk about Syl. Too much pain there right now.

But not confiding everything . . . 

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Shallan listened. He would have expected questions from her, but she didn’t ask a single one. No pestering for details, no chattering. She apparently did know how to be quiet.

Had Shallan asked the hard questions, would Kaladin answered them honestly? They were not asked. Would they have figured it out together?  It’s not like he shied away from questions.  He didn’t know at this point who the shardbearer was. 

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When he finished, they both let the silence settle on them, and shared warmth. Together, they stared out at the rushing water just out of reach and lit by flashing. “I killed my father,” Shallan whispered. Kaladin looked toward her. In a flash of light, he saw her eyes as she looked up from where her head had been resting against his chest, beads of water on her eyelashes. With his hands around her waist, hers around him, it was as close as he’d held a woman since Tarah. “My father was a violent, angry man,” Shallan said. “A murderer. I loved him. And I strangled him as he lay on the floor, watching me, unable to move. I killed my own father . . .” He didn’t prod her, though he wanted to know. Needed to know. She went on, fortunately, speaking of her youth and the terrors she had known.

And here are Kaladin’s thoughts as he listened to Shallan — when Kaladin makes the connection. 

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Marks like those were signs of strength. He did feel a chill as she mentioned her brother Helaran’s death, anger in her voice. Helaran had been killed in Alethkar. At Amaram’s hands. Storms . . . I killed him, didn’t I? Kaladin thought. The brother she loved. Had he told her about that? No. No, he hadn’t mentioned that he’d killed the Shardbearer, only that Amaram had killed Kaladin’s men to cover up his lust for the weapon. He’d gotten used to, over the years, referencing the event without mentioning that he’d killed a Shardbearer. His first few months as a slave had beaten into him the dangers of talking about an event like that. He hadn’t even realized he’d fallen into that habit of speaking here. Did she realize? Had she inferred that Kaladin, not Amaram, had been the one to actually kill the Shardbearer? She didn’t seem to have made that connection. She continued talking, speaking of the night—also during a storm—when she’d poisoned, then murdered her father. Almighty above. This woman was stronger than he’d ever been.

Just as Shallan listened and didn’t interrupt Kaladin’s story — Kaladin returned the respect. 

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The marriage to Adolin was her idea, a way to protect my family while I trained.”

I reminder to Kaladin that he is holding a bethroed woman in his arms. 

And then the stormfather comes for a visit (I’d say that was a bit distracting)

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“She’s one of them, isn’t she?” he asked. “Of the Knights Radiant, or at least a Surgebinder. That’s what happened when fighting the chasmfiend, that’s how she survived the fall. It wasn’t me either time. It was her.”

Kaladin suspected that Shallan hadn’t been truthful with him about her abilities 

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They fell silent. With light, the need to speak had passed, and though he considered confronting her about what he was increasingly sure she was, he said nothing. Once they were free, there would be time.

Now with the evidence that the sphere had not been dropped, but drained, Kaladin is wondering about her radiantcy and that fact that he killed her brother Helaran is no longer forefront in his mind,  His mind didn’t even dwell on her wet, tattered dress— but on the loss of Syl. 

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He shifted to move to climb down, but realized that Shallan, curled up against him, had fallen asleep. She snored softly. “You must be the only person,” he whispered, “to ever fall asleep while outside in a highstorm.” Uncomfortable though he was, he realized he really didn’t fancy the idea of climbing down with this wounded leg. Strength sapped, feeling a crushing darkness at what the Stormfather had said about Syl, he let himself succumb to the numbness, and fell asleep.

And while he is in his thoughts Shallan falls alseep and he follows her lead (again)  

Now it is easy to argue that Kaladin could have brought up that he killed Helaran when they were later harvesting the gem-heart or when they were finding their way back to camp. But he didn’t and  we don’t know if he thought of it and was avoiding it, or if he was so physically and mentally distracted that he didn’t consider it again. It seems to me that the didn’t get another chance to really talk after this. 

The confided in / confidence in / trusting each other concept rings true to me — but I don’t see any sign of conscious dis-trust or willfully witholding information with the intention to deceive. (About Helaran) (there was some about radiancy) I really believe that it was all circumstantial. 

I’m looking forward to how it plays out. Mr Brandon Sanderson has certainly set it up to be a very good story no mater where the ending takes us. (And I’m enjoying every minute)  there is plenty of foreshadowing from this weeks chapters (what would Jasnah think?) that I believe Shallan will understand where Kaladin was coming from. I think the part where it will get crazy is the information we will get from the ghost bloods as to why Helaran was there that day in the first place  to kill Amaram. 

 

 

 

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On 26.10.2017 at 4:42 AM, maxal said:

Actually, Dalinar states the battle he is about to head into was the first one in two years. Therefore, him and Evi likely had plenty of time to get to know each other. They don't click which isn't to say they won't get close later on, but clues so far indicate Evi hasn't been a great love for Dalinar.

Dalinar states that the upcoming battle is the first real batte after two years of political maneuvering, which in the months before the battle consisted of pillaging the coutryside of their rivals. Since Evi is present before the major battle, she probably would have been with the army during the pillaging, so there should indeed have been enough time to get closer.
Up to this point, Evi has not become a great love for Dalinar. I think that has two main reasons: First her brother trying to wiggle in new terms to the agreement, which gives the engangement a bad politcal taste. Trust is not built, when every now and then new demands come up. The second reason is Dalinar's bloodlust, which is definitely not shared by Evi. While one would assume that this would keep Evi away from Dalinar, it is the other way around. Dalinar has problems being himself and feels uncomfortable in front of Evi. This could change though, as soon as Dalinar leashes the Blackthorn, which I think will happen after his Oath to himself never to become King. Until now, Evi is much too sweet and nice for the Blackthorn. This has to change because of Navani's recollections of Shshshsh in WoK and WoR:

Quote

"She changed everything," Navani said. "You truly seemed to love her."
"I did," Dalinar said. Surely he had loved her. Hadn't he? He could remember nothing. [...]
"Because," Navani said. "She fit you so well, never making inappropriate comments, never bullying those around her, always so calm." [...]
"Hardly. But you were matched in temperament. For a time, after I got over trying to hate her, I thought that the four of us could be quite close. But you were so stiff toward me."

WoK - Chapter 64

How did you manage it, when Shshshsh died? I know you loved her, Dalinar. You don't have to deny it for my ego.

WoR - Chapter 67

Evi is still described as sweet and quite the opposite of cunning. We know that Dalinar suppressed his feelings toward Navani the whole time but playing the loving, matching couple for years is something I don't think Dalinar could have pulled off. Also, his outward behaviour must have changed significantly to be called "matched in temperament" with Evi. I don't see any match in the flashback chapters. In those, I get the feeling that they don't match at all.

On the other hand, Dalinar could have bundled his true feelings and his true temperament into a tight knot, playing the outside for years. Then that knot burst, with consequences to speculate about. Evi's resulting death would not be too farfetched in this case.

The great question is whether Dalinar changes truly from the Blackthorn to present day Dalinar while Evi is still around or whether it is all an act, perhaps until Gavilar's assassination. And when does the act become reality?

Well, I also had some thoughts on Adolin dropping the H-bomb on Shallan. This post has become longer than intended and my time is up for now. So to keep it short, I didn't read Adolin's reaction as negative as many others did. I guess it depends on the tone the reader imagines the speaker using. More on this topic later.

Edited by Pattern
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5 hours ago, Pattern said:

Up to this point, Evi has not become a great love for Dalinar. I think that has two main reasons: First her brother trying to wiggle in new terms to the agreement, which gives the engangement a bad politcal taste. Trust is not built, when every now and then new demands come up. The second reason is Dalinar's bloodlust, which is definitely not shared by Evi. While one would assume that this would keep Evi away from Dalinar, it is the other way around. Dalinar has problems being himself and feels uncomfortable in front of Evi. This could change though, as soon as Dalinar leashes the Blackthorn, which I think will happen after his Oath to himself never to become King. Until now, Evi is much too sweet and nice for the Blackthorn. This has to change because of Navani's recollections of Shshshsh in WoK and WoR:

Quote

"She changed everything," Navani said. "You truly seemed to love her."
"I did," Dalinar said. Surely he had loved her. Hadn't he? He could remember nothing. [...]
"Because," Navani said. "She fit you so well, never making inappropriate comments, never bullying those around her, always so calm." [...]
"Hardly. But you were matched in temperament. For a time, after I got over trying to hate her, I thought that the four of us could be quite close. But you were so stiff toward me."

WoK - Chapter 64

How did you manage it, when Shshshsh died? I know you loved her, Dalinar. You don't have to deny it for my ego.

WoR - Chapter 67

Evi is still described as sweet and quite the opposite of cunning. We know that Dalinar suppressed his feelings toward Navani the whole time but playing the loving, matching couple for years is something I don't think Dalinar could have pulled off. Also, his outward behaviour must have changed significantly to be called "matched in temperament" with Evi. I don't see any match in the flashback chapters. In those, I get the feeling that they don't match at all.

On the other hand, Dalinar could have bundled his true feelings and his true temperament into a tight knot, playing the outside for years. Then that knot burst, with consequences to speculate about. Evi's resulting death would not be too farfetched in this case.

Thank you! I've been trying to figure out how to say exactly what you did. Have a cookie!

Spoiler

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10 hours ago, Nebty said:

I mean, you're right, they wouldn't have been presented to each other as prospects for an arranged marriage if they were the same gender. But are you trying to say that Shallan and Adolin can't be friends outside of their romantic relationship?

I'm saying that almost none of their interactions fit inside the scope of them being "just friends" . For example, take this from the latest OB chapter:

Quote

 

“Bastard,” Adolin said.

Dalinar winced visibly, then pointed toward the exit. “Perhaps, son, you should take a moment to yourself.”

“Yeah. Sure.” Adolin pulled out of his father’s grip, stalking toward the exit.

Shallan thought only a moment, then grabbed her shoes and drawing pad and hurried after him. She caught up to Adolin in the hallway outside, near where the palanquins for the women were parked, and took his arm.

“Hey,” she said softly.

He glanced at her, and his expression softened.

“You want to talk?” Shallan asked. “You seem angrier about him than you were before.”

 

This particular interaction between Adolin and Shallan is one of the more "friend-like but not specifically romantic" interactions that they have. Shallan taking Adolin's arm makes it slightly romantic but if we imagine a revised scene where they were "just friends" then it wouldn't need to change much. This is very much the exception rather than the norm for Shallan and Adolin though - the romantic aspect is at least there in almost all their interactions and it is often significant (more so in OB so far, if anything).

What I'm trying to do is to draw attention to the difference between a "relationship" in general and what is specifically a "romantic relationship". The intent of the gender-bending thought experiment is a way to highlight the difference between the two. Shallan and Kaladin have interactions but what is specifically romantic about those interactions? If we can change the setting so that a romantic relationship would be off the table by having them be the same gender but it only has a slight impact on their interactions and their relationship then what exactly is specifically romantic about their actual relationship without that change?

To be clear, I'm focusing on what has occurred so far in the books. I'm not talking about what might happen in future (though obviously they are not unrelated but the details would depend on a lot of things we don't know).

 

10 hours ago, Nebty said:

Well, we know for sure that Kaladin at least doesn't think of Shallan as just a friend. But they are indeed friends in addition to their attraction to one another.

We don't know anything for sure. Here's the passage in question:

Quote

 

“Come on,” Syl said. “What about that Lightweaver? You seemed to like her.”

The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth. “Shallan is engaged to Dalinar’s son.”

 

So what exactly are Kaladin's feelings for Shallan? He doesn't say but it's "close" to "like". How would he describe his feelings? Respect, perhaps? But would that be an honest assessment? Perhaps not.

The above sequence is very much the exception though. Even then, Kaladin is shooting down the idea of romance between himself and Shallan. So it still fits inside the idea of them being "just friends". Obviously things could change in future but that hasn't happened yet. In terms of what we have actually seen, there's very little that falls outside the scope of their relationship being more than that of friends.

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18 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So what exactly are Kaladin's feelings for Shallan? He doesn't say but it's "close" to "like". How would he describe his feelings? Respect, perhaps? But would that be an honest assessment? Perhaps not.

The above sequence is very much the exception though. Even then, Kaladin is shooting down the idea of romance between himself and Shallan. So it still fits inside the idea of them being "just friends". Obviously things could change in future but that hasn't happened yet. In terms of what we have actually seen, there's very little that falls outside the scope of their relationship being more than that of friends.

Come on. Just a few sentences before Syl was talking to Kal about relationships and sex. We both know what she was hinting at.

He's shutting down any idea, because of his respect towards Adolin and that Shallan is betrothed to him. That Shallan is lighteyed is just something he tells himself to make this easier. It's called repressing feelings and humans do that all the time.

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