[OB] Oathbringer chapters 25-27

[JoyBlu]

20 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Does anything think maybe the figure Shallan chased from the theater was a person (maybe GB) and the spren just appeared afterwards? Her story was fascinating by the way.

 

My initial thought was that it was Hoid watching her (that he and Jasnah had entered Uruthiru quietly like Amaram had done) but then when the figure ran I figured it probably wasn’t Hoid after all. 

But it could have been a real person and that Shallan happened upon the mystery thing.

What ever that mystery thing is, I’m pretty sure it was a witness to the murder of Sadeas

I wonder if Rock saw the face that attacked him and if Shallan or Adolin could interview him and make a sketch of what the attacker’s looked like. Now if the “thing” can change its appearance it might not help — but there has to be some limits on its power to change. (Kandra have to have time to digest new bones, etc) and perhaps the thing was also feeding off of Shallans plethora of Stormlight  

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And I read it thinking “what kind of idiot puts regular troops around the beserker?” There is a reason RL berserkers usually went ahead of the army... and usually fought only with other berserkers. They were shocktroops. And possibly drugged... they also experienced emotional deadness once the berserk state faded, along with a loss of strength.

There are a lot of similarities between Dalinar’s experience with the Thrill and the RL berserk state.

It could be argued they weren't regular troops. They were elites chosen by the Blackthorn himself. Although they usually did seem to give him plenty of space, guess that time it wasn't enough. 

[Aminar]

4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

It could be argued they weren't regular troops. They were elites chosen by the Blackthorn himself. Although they usually did seem to give him plenty of space, guess that time it wasn't enough. 

Not just that, but the fighting style of a shardbearer in general invites friendly fire. I would guess the Kholin Soldiers that died were thrown/pushed there by an enemy troops trying to get them killed. It would be almost impossible for a Sharbearer to fight in a way where they never caused friendly fire with troops that close because shardblades don't stop moving, are silly long, and have a lot of momentum. 

[Blacksmithki]

13 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

My initial thought was that it was Hoid watching her (that he and Jasnah had entered Uruthiru quietly like Amaram had done) but then when the figure ran I figured it probably wasn’t Hoid after all. 

But it could have been a real person and that Shallan happened upon the mystery thing.

What ever that mystery thing is, I’m pretty sure it was a witness to the murder of Sadeas

I wonder if Rock saw the face that attacked him and if Shallan or Adolin could interview him and make a sketch of what the attacker’s looked like. Now if the “thing” can change its appearance it might not help — but there has to be some limits on its power to change. (Kandra have to have time to digest new bones, etc) and perhaps the thing was also feeding off of Shallans plethora of Stormlight  

 

If it's a Kandra that really really pushes the boundary of stormlight being a standalone series, vasher is fine mostly because he was originally made to be a part of this series and warbreaker is an origin story more or less and everything else is mostly just Easter eggs or Hoid.

[JoyBlu]

On 10/24/2017 at 7:15 AM, dendrophobe said:

First on-screen appearance of an Unmade?

I have questions about this. I thought we saw an unmade in Edgedancer and again in one of the interludes — (the cook on the ship) but they were both in human form. So you mean unmade in their natural form? 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:21 AM, She Who Cannot Be Named said:

And again we got just teensy weensy small bits about Dustringers. They like to make things explode, and the bonded Spren is called Sparks? 

@Steeldancer: Honorspren vs. Odiumspren: Matter vs. Antimatter: BOOOM

In the Ars Arcanum the Essence SPARK is listed as Chaco/Ruby/the soul/fire/brave. 

Seems strange For an essence and Spren to both have the same name

On 10/24/2017 at 7:20 AM, Agent34 said:

Perhaps it's related to the Rhythms

I think so . . . 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:44 AM, Daishi5 said:

Dalinar saw red again while fighting and just slaughtering the enemy.  Voidbringers are supposed to have red eyes.  I really think parshendi are not the only ones who can become voidbringers.  

I am nodding my head in agreement. Voidbringers can be recruited amongst any type of creature — but I’m guessing that the recruitment process differs among species

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:55 AM, Stark said:

Oh man, where to start.

 

The story Shallan told Pattern, in the amphitheater?  The little girl on the other side of the wall?  Who climbed the scary spikes only to find many years ago that her people were the evil the wall was built to keep out?  I wonder if that was originally a Listener story?  I also wonder at the ending, it seemed a little too rushed to be the real ending, it felt like a lie.

IT built and built, with no pay off.  I wonder what the story would have been if she had not been overwhelmed by her memories of her childhood.

I felt the same way. I feel that there is still something left untold in this story that we will come to understand later in the book. It was a beautiful illustration. 

On 10/24/2017 at 8:15 AM, Steeldancer said:

Has anyone read the 5 kingdoms? 

I'm thinking the Lightweavers used to do Dazzle Shows. 

Yes — and the perhaps helped in the confidence lounges too! 

On 10/24/2017 at 8:41 AM, Steeldancer said:

RED THE COLOR OF ODIUM

BLACK THE COLOR OF THE STONE

RED MY EYES ARE TURNING RED

BLACK THE END OF FABRIALS!

So @Steeldancer you’ve had me singing Les Mis all night and again this morning. Can’t get the tune out of my head now. Red & black will never be the same again!

 

Red: the blood of angry men!
Black: the dark of ages past!
Red: a world about to dawn!
Black: the night that ends at last!
 

23 hours ago, Jigar said:

Could the Oathbringer be written by Evi?

 

She is believed to be dead and she is a heretic.

“And she made no mention of the Almighty—instead she spoke of something called the One, a heretical tradition the ardents told him came from Iri.”

She might have killed her brother or maybe she might have killed Dalinar metaphorically by taking away all her memories from him?

I don't think it's written by Dalinar cause

1 he is not believed to be dead yet

2 Men on Roshar do not write it is believed ti be Feminine trait.

3 How can Dalinar enter Shadesmar?

 

Dalinar entering Shadesmar is a big question - one that would need to be answered if it was him. 

The Almighty and the One could be the same being — just called two different names by two different cultures although. @Aleksiel has a different take on that — which I also find plausible — but I’d like to think they are the same “power” 

22 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Word.

This fits with the end of Shallan's story:  "The wall did indeed hide something evil, something frightening. It was the people, like the girl and her village.”

Foreshadowing for a big humans-are-voidbringers reveal?

I’m thinking that humans could be voidbringers but not all voidbringers are human @Daishi5

22 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

I don't think so, because none of the other Alethi were shocked by anything that happened in this flashback.   I actually found that the most shocking thing about it!   Dalinar got so carried away that he killed a bunch of his own men, and Gavilar was just like, "dude, nice job there, we won, yay..."

Which makes me think that whatever happened later on must have been REALLY REALLY bad.

I agree. If Dalinar killed some of his own elite men (it is possible that they were killed by the enemy but I think all their eyes were burnt out, so maybe not?) then maybe those men were sent to “talk him out” of the thrill and were unsuccessful. The Blackthorns only order was to “stay out of my way” so I guess those he killed with the shardblade didn’t follow orders? (I know — it sounds terrible when saying it out loud) When talking someone down you don’t want to indicate that they have done anything wrong or perhaps they will kill you too.  It’s the whole “white man who abuses (or is consumed with) power” debate. Dalinar was the most powerful man that day.  

22 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

 

Random thought #2 Last we heard, Shallan was trying to keep the fact that she was a Lightweaver hidden yet they did a big bad Lightweaving map in front of everybody. What gives? I don't think anyone would believe that it's an Elsecaller ability.

@DocHoliday I thought that the room was pretty full of people and scribes. Perhaps they played it off as a power from that room or something.  

20 hours ago, Todesengel said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/sneaked-vs-snuck 

Thanks for the link. I finally watched the video with sound and then googled it on several sites. I guess that both are correct? 

1 hour ago, heridfel said:

Thank you for consolidating those prefaces. My hope is that whoever the in-universe author is, it's someone who isn't used to writing. The sentence structure is so simplistic that it hurts me to read it all at once. That makes sense when the out-of-universe goal is "let's come up with something that I can break up and put in the front of chapters of my book", but the main effect in-universe (intended or not) is that the author is a drill and the reader and her listeners are the materials being drilled. It suggests a personality like Dalinar's, but the text itself doesn't support his being the author very well.

You are welcome! It helps to read it all together. But I agree with your observations— there are several statements in the text that do point away from Dalinar (at least from what we know about him today) and personality wise it could support several characters we already know. 

@Blacksmithki good point on the “thing” not being a kandra. I like your train of thought on that. Probably not a kandra. More likely a spren of some sort. Goes along more with the Roshar world. 

 

 

I’ve only read the first 9 pages of comments so far but I’ll keep checking in . . . . 

Edited October 25, 2017 by JoyBlu

[Subvisual Haze]

The shadowy person in the audience may have been intentionally leading Shallan to spren, but was not itself the spren.  It reminded me of the kind of tricks Kelsier or Ruin (when pretending to be Preservation's mistghost) played in Secret History.

 

[vividox]

52 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

If it's a Kandra that really really pushes the boundary of stormlight being a standalone series, vasher is fine mostly because he was originally made to be a part of this series and warbreaker is an origin story more or less and everything else is mostly just Easter eggs or Hoid.

I think people are a little too pre-occupied with the concept of these being stand alone series. You can still have a stand alone series and have significant characters or elements from other worlds. For instance, if Vivenna showed up in the next chapter, non-Cosmere-aware people would simply see her as a new character being introduced. And I'd assume that the farther and farther we get into this, crossover will become more and more prevalent. After all, by the time we get to Mistborn 4, Hoid is going to be a main character and pretty much anything Cosmere is going to be fair game. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by vividox

[Duke of Lizards]

16 hours ago, maxal said:

I still don't get why Shallan is so angry over anyone having killed Helaran. Maybe I am struggling with my own personal reaction because, if I were her, I'd hate Helaran for having abandoned them to go seek glory elsewhere. 

Yes!  I'm convinced that the idealized version of Helaran that she remembers is something that she created in her mind, as she tends to do...often. 

[tobar14]

On 10/24/2017 at 8:17 AM, Steeldancer said:

It might be Jasnah still. Or dalinar. 

Wow. That flashback was... intense. Very intense. 

Shallan knows now. Her budding love for kaladin? Probably crushed right there. Also the murders are being done by a voidspren, and we FINALLY see Bridge 4. Poor rock, getting his hand stabbed.

The appearance of the Ryshadium fascinated me. Why music spren? 

Could it be music spren because they have rhythms like the parshendi?

[Stark]

1 hour ago, JoyBlu said:

I have questions about this. I thought we saw an unmade in Edgedancer and again in one of the interludes — (the cook on the ship) but they were both in human form. So you mean unmade in their natural form?

I think you are confusing the unmade with the Dysian Aimians...  One is evil spren, the other is what we saw in Edgedancer and a bunch of other places.

[Lightning]

10 hours ago, Pattern said:

I think this is the lowest point he gets.

Are you sure?  The blurbs that start each chapter suggest that perhaps Dalinar gets even lower, and murders someone who loved him.

[Alderant]

Okay.

I will admit first off I have not read through this thread or through the last one, so if I repeat something someone else has said or already refuted, my sincere apologies. Things have been a little busy for me and I've not had the time I had a few weeks ago.

Chapters 25-27 fill me with a lot of ill-ease and concern. I will freely admit that Shallan is reacting to things much better than I anticipated, which is awesome (I'm the kind of "always sees the worst possible result first" person). That said...

Chapter 25 - The Girl Who Looked Up

Quote

I will confess my murders before you. Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly.

I really wonder who is writing this book. My thoughts have really been leaning toward either Dalinar dictating this (though that seems to be getting less likely over time, the recent entries make it a reasonable idea), Shallan, or Jasnah. And before anyone goes off on the "the in-world books can't be written by a character" tangent, they can. Especially since "the personal journal of Navani Kholin" has been used. I do wonder if it's actually written by Shallan-post Oathbringer. We saw this happen in Hero of Ages where the epithets were written by Sazed, post-the Catacandre.

Quote

A dark mass wriggled deep inside, squeezing between walls. Like goo, but with bits jutting out. Those were elbows, ribs, fingers splayed along one wall, each knuckle bending backward.

A spren, she thought, trembling. It is some strange kind of spren.

The thing twisted, head deforming in the tiny confines, and looked toward her. She saw eyes reflecting her light, twin spheres set in a mashed head, a distorted human visage.

I'm going with the whole "the Unmade are Odium's equivalent of Heralds" theory. And I think this is likely an Unmade, though I'm admittedly not well-versed in their characteristics. This whole sequence was bizarre and horrifying.

Quote

His hand was bleeding. Like it was stabbed right through the center, Veil thought.

So it's not revenge killing or psychological warfare. It's something attracted to violence, in a similar fashion to spren, but it's duplicating the violence. Interesting...

Chapter 26 - Blackthorn Unleashed

This whole sequence made my stomach roll. Dalinar was savage.

Quote

Evi said, then pulled close to him, setting her head on his shoulder and encouraging him to wrap his arms around her.

He did so with a limp gesture. Storms, he could hear the soldiers snicker as they passed by. The Blackthorn, being consoled before battle? Publicly hugging and acting lovey?

Evi turned her head toward him for a kiss, and he presented a chaste one, their lips barely touching. She accepted that, smiling. And she did have a beautiful smile.

I'm looking forward to how Dalinar's and Evi's relationship grows from here, though I imagine we won't see a ton of the building in the flashbacks. These seem very focused on Dalinar's change from who he was to who he became and the reasons behind that change. Especially because of:

Quote

He was running. Some of the men in Gavilar’s group raised hands in welcome. Weak. No weapons presented against him! He could slaughter them all before they knew what had happened. They deserved it! Dalinar deserved to—

Gavilar turned toward him, pulling free his helm and smiling an open, honest grin.

Dalinar pulled up, stopping with a lurch. He stared at Gavilar, his brother.

Oh, Stormfather, Dalinar thought. What am I doing?

Oh, Dalinar. We knew this scene was coming but I didn't think it would come in quite this way.

Chapter 27 - Playing Pretend

The meat of my remarks comes from here.

Quote

“It has to be some kind of spren, right?”

“I feel I should know,” Pattern said. “This… this is a thing from long ago. Long, long ago…”

Shallan shivered. “Why is it here?”

“I cannot say,” Pattern replied. “It is not a thing of us. It is of him.”

I think this points to it being an Unmade, in my opinion. Not a spren...per se, but definitely something of Odium, as Pattern points out. And with it's human-like qualities but ability to squash its body into a tiny crevice (a la the Golem from the Wheel of Time?), points to it being something of human-like. I don't think it's Aimian...I think we've seen both types of those now. And coupled with the feeling of wrongness in the place...

Quote

“Tradition is our ally, Dalinar,” Ialai said. “I don’t think you’ve ever understood that as you should. Highmarshal Amaram is our house’s most decorated and well-regarded general. He is beloved of our soldiers, and known the world over. I name him regent and heir to the house title. He is, for all intents, Highprince Sadeas now. I would ask the king to ratify this.”

I really should have expected this...but I didn't.

Quote

“Kaladin’s not going to like this,” Adolin said. “Amaram as a highprince? The two of us spent weeks in jail because of the things that man did.”

“I think Amaram killed my brother.”

Adolin wheeled around to stare at her. “What?”

“Amaram has a Shardblade,” Shallan said. “I saw it previously in the hands of my brother, Helaran. He was older than I am, and left Jah Keved years ago. From what I can gather, he and Amaram fought at some point, and Amaram killed him—taking the Blade.”

“Shallan… that Blade. You know where Amaram got that, right?” “On the battlefield?”

“From Kaladin.” Adolin raised his hand to his head. “The bridgeboy insisted that he’d saved Amaram’s life by killing a Shardbearer. Amaram then killed Kaladin’s squad and took the Shards for himself. That’s basically the entire reason the two hate each other.”

Wait...really?! I didn't expect this to come up quite so quickly, but now you've gone and outed the thing.

Quote

Shallan’s throat grew tight. “Oh.”

Tuck it away. Don’t think about it.

“Shallan,” Adolin said, stepping toward her. “Why would your brother try to kill Amaram? Did he maybe know the highlord was corrupt? Storms! Kaladin didn’t know any of that. Poor bridgeboy. Everyone would have been better off if he’d just let Amaram die.”

Don’t confront it. Don’t think about it.

“Yeah,” she said. “Huh.”

“But how did your brother know?” Adolin said, pacing across the balcony. “Did he say anything?”

“We didn’t talk much,” Shallan said, numb. “He left when I was young. I didn’t know him well.”

Anything to get off this topic. For this was something she could still tuck away in the back of her brain. She did not want to think about Kaladin and Helaran.…

Okay. Well, at least Shallan reacted exactly the way I expected her to. But that was a surprisingly tender reaction, even for Shallan. I make it no secret that I ship Kaladin for her--I still maintain that Kaladin is best for Shallan. But in reading this segment something clicked for me as to why her relationship with Adolin seems off. ( I won't share what so I don't set off the Shadolin crowd  ) I don't want to get into it with anyone (heaven knows we've debated the topic ad nauseam and will still continue to do so until Brandon picks one), but judging Shallan's reaction here...Though she has vastly more experience with Adolin around, Kaladin's worked his way into a very sensitive area of her heart, as I have pointed out before. That chasm scene was more than just two people surviving together in my opinion.

If anyone does want to continue the debate, I will gladly do so...elsewhere, lol. I don't want to fill this board with more shipping wars.

Quote

Her fingers trembled as she turned to the next page. She’d scribbled it entirely black, using a circular motion, spiraling toward the center point. A deep void, an endless corridor, something terrible and unknowable at the end.

She snapped the sketchbook shut. “What is happening to me?”

This really reminded me of the sequences leading up to her first dip into Shadesmar. What is her subconscious seeing?

[JoyBlu]

11 minutes ago, Stark said:

I think you are confusing the unmade with the Dysian Aimians...  One is evil spren, the other is what we saw in Edgedancer and a bunch of other places.

@Stark I think I am confused. 

That would explain some things. The unmade are not the Dysian Aimians. Time for some more research so I can understand this better. 

 

Thanks for claryfying that. I believed they were the same . 

(I’m out of upvotes but I’ll give you one later once mine replenish)

[JoyBlu]

20 hours ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

Sure, the Epigraphs are (intentionally) so vague that the author could be literally anyone (even Amaram) but I kinda like this explanation.

I hadn’t seriously considered Amaram as the author of Inworld Oathbringer book before — but what if Oathbringer the Sword is found and then given to Amaram/Highprince Sadeas. What if Kaladin was the one that found the sword and had to give it to him? (Ok, he would not actually touch the sword ) 

I’m hoping that we get to understand more of Amaram’s pasts and motives. 

[Alderant]

17 hours ago, maxal said:

And Shallan learns the truth in what has to pass as the worst possible way. Adolin didn't even notice it was a sensitive subject (he could have guessed) and Shallan, of course, closed up onto herself. This passage is going to give munitions to the Kaladin/Shallan shippers as yes, Adolin was an idiot, yeah, he didn't get it and yeah, it seems less likely than ever for Shallan to ever open up to Adolin.

Thank you. That's as honest an analysis as I've seen on this sequence yet. Especially coming from someone as pro-Adolin as yourself.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

I still don't get why Shallan is so angry over anyone having killed Helaran.

I think she's idolized Helaran in her head. She has a head-canon from her girlhood of Helaran being this loving older brother who was always attentive to her and her desires. This is a really common phenomenon when siblings are as much younger than older siblings as Shallan and Helaran are--they idolize the older sibling, practically worship them. So to Shallan, she would be angry over someone killing her favorite older brother.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Shallan's reaction was hard to read: always closing up, always repressing... I got it she was doing it for her broken family's past, but Helaran was not part of this past.

I think you missed the mark here. I don't think she was doing it in this situation because of her broken past, but rather because Kaladin was directly involved. I don't think she has realized just how she feels about Kaladin yet. I think she's still wrapped up in making the betrothal with Adolin succeed, but this section was surprisingly tender (even for me) in her reaction.

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

I really wonder who is writing this book. My thoughts have really been leaning toward either Dalinar dictating this (though that seems to be getting less likely over time, the recent entries make it a reasonable idea), Shallan, or Jasnah. And before anyone goes off on the "the in-world books can't be written by a character" tangent, they can. Especially since "the personal journal of Navani Kholin" has been used. I do wonder if it's actually written by Shallan-post Oathbringer. We saw this happen in Hero of Ages where the epithets were written by Sazed, post-the Catacandre.

I think it is a current character there is plenty of precedence for this as you mentioned. Also feeling like it is written post Oathbringer ending similar to what Sazed did. The only sentence that made me dismiss Jasnah was the "I know I am not smarter than you..." but this may not mean intellectually but as in I made a dumb mistake or something. There is also the killing a person that love me part that I do not think we have seen yet (unless she killed Evi which seems too similar to Shallan). Second choice is Shallan but I think less of the sentences apply to her. Dalinar is my third choice but the Shadsmar thing seems like a real stretch. Forth pick is Evi but I really hate this if it is true and she is still alive. 

[Blacksmithki]

5 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I think it is a current character there is plenty of precedence for this as you mentioned. Also feeling like it is written post Oathbringer ending similar to what Sazed did. The only sentence that made me dismiss Jasnah was the "I know I am not smarter than you..." but this may not mean intellectually but as in I made a dumb mistake or something. There is also the killing a person that love me part that I do not think we have seen yet (unless she killed Evi which seems too similar to Shallan). Second choice is Shallan but I think less of the sentences apply to her. Dalinar is my third choice but the Shadsmar thing seems like a real stretch. Forth pick is Evi but I really hate this if it is true and she is still alive. 

Well, for Jashnah it sort of breaks with the parts about the author being a heretic (yes Jashnah is one but she never refers to it how the author does) as well as the author not being a philosopher and being dumber then the general reader.

Dalinar makes a lot of sense for every single bit but the shadesmar and the dying/worse part.

Szeth doesn't work well because he DID die.

Evi just feels lame and disappointing

Shallen is intelligent and religious her distaste for spice messes with that part

Kaladin hasn't killed a loved one and isn't being set up to anytime soon.

Who am I forgetting? I feel like it is more likly.Dalinar as his issue can be fixed with a near death experience and trip to shadesmar.

[mariapapadia]

19 hours ago, maxal said:

Chapter 26

Ah the Dalinar chapter which all needed to read. The Blackthorn at the height of his barbarous glory as he slaughters all which stands too close to him, including his own men. How can any even agree to follow him after this baffles me but here he was hacking through his own people, never satiated always needing more blood, more gore.

The greatest lie within SA is finally unravelling itself: Dalinar did not love Evi. He might not have wished her dead, but his and her wasn't the tale of a great love. They had a political marriage made for convenience. Maybe she loved him, but he quite certainly didn't love her.

I think this is exactly the reason why so many are following him ! It's not like the Alethi are the most moral class there is. He was the epitome of the Alethi society at that point in his life. I don't think they cared much who he killed, even if they were his own people, as long as he showed strenght and power. That's the whole reason why people started ridicule him since the beginning of WoK, because he wasn't showing the same barbarous character that made him famous. 

18 hours ago, maxal said:

It's been three years. Thee years of courtship and he still does not love her, I say it doesn't bode well.

 

17 hours ago, maxal said:

They changed the timeline, last time this chapter was 25 years ago and he met her 28 years ago. Still it was two years, two years is a long time to get to know someone. Within the first draft of this chapter, Dalinar downright says he hates Evi.

I personally do not buy him loving her: growing more found of her, yes, but love? No. This is the first thing he remembers too: he remembers he was physically attracted to her, but he can't remember loving her. Also, this chapter isn't Dalinar witnessing anything, this is Dalinar living a relationship with Evi and well, he does not love her.

I don;t think they had a great love story, I am positively sure that Navani remained Dalinar's first great love throughout these years, but I have a feeling he got to love Evi as well, in a different way. I would argue that the reason it's not stated in the final version, that he hates her and he's only annoyed & frustrated could be a point to the posibility of him growing to love her. We don't see him living a relationship with her, we barely see some of their interaction in this chapter, so I wouldn't be so sure this sets the tone of their whole story.

I think it's been three years where Dalinar didn't had any major events or personality changes happening, all this time he was wishing for more war. My feelings are that, after Dalinar realised why is he capable of, by thinking of killing his brother, his ferocity died down a bit and Evi's kindness was something that guided him towards a more stable path. Of course, this is only wishfull thinking from my part as I don't think we have enough information to predict something certain. I am really curious to see how Dalinar was between this incident and the time he was dead drunk in the night Gavilar died. I don't think he had any noble aspirations as he has now, but I doubt he remained constant for 20-30 years.

5 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I've been on a quest, searching everything I can think of for a story featuring a girl climbing a wall that turns out to have stairs on the outside, I cannot find anything anywhere though.

Several of the specific details stood out to me as familiar as well, though: the twisted faces in the wall, the fact that the people were meant to be trapped inside for some reason, and the girl tying a hammock from scarves (or maybe from something else)

I think I'm going to go crazy trying to figure this out.

I actually think the reason why it seems so familiar is a mix of a lot of elements from different things. For me it's this :

• As someone mentioned on another thread it has a certain Prometeus/ bible vibe to it. 
• When I heard about the wall in the story, the first thing I thought of was the wall on the cover of OB and the wall from Luthadel. And then the white hair+the red scarf which reminded me of Warbreaker. 
• It's either in ASoIF that someone ties themselves and hangs, to sleep, while they are climbing a wall. Or it's something I've seen rock climbers do.
• For some reason it reminded me of the book The Horse and his boy, from Chronicles of Narnia. I read it ages ago and I am positively sure there isn't anything similar to this story in it, except maybe a wall. 
• And I remember something from another book, The Night Circus, where someone was in a tree looking over a village or something like that. 

This explanation has absolutely no sense or purpose for anyone rather than me  but the point I am trying to make is : maybe there were so many familiar elements in the story, that our brains made us think we actually read a similar one, when in fact we didn't. Does this make any sense ? 

Edited October 25, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Starla]

In chapter 25 Shallan mentions that merchants have sent expeditions to gather salvage from the abandoned war camps. What are the chances that someone finds Hoid’s flute in Sadeas' bridgeman barracks and brings it back to Urithiru? I am in a constant state of concern over the whereabouts of that flute.

[StormingTexan]

32 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I actually think the reason why it seems so familiar is a mix of a lot of elements from different things. For me it's this :

• As someone mentioned on another thread it has a certain Prometeus/ bible vibe to it. 
• When I heard about the wall in the story, the first thing I thought of was the wall on the cover of OB and the wall from Luthadel. And then the white hair+the red scarf which reminded me of Warbreaker. 
• It's either in ASoIF that someone ties themselves and hangs, to sleep, while they are climbing a wall. Or it's something I've seen rock climbers do.
• For some reason it reminded me of the book The Horse and his boy, from Chronicles of Narnia. I read it ages ago and I am positively sure there isn't anything similar to this story in it, except maybe a wall. 
• And I remember something from another book, The Night Circus, where someone was in a tree looking over a village or something like that. 

This explanation has absolutely no sense or purpose for anyone rather than me  but the point I am trying to make is : maybe there were so many familiar elements in the story, that our brains made us think we actually read a similar one, when in fact we didn't. Does this make any sense ? 

All this and little bit Adam & Eve as well. 

34 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well, for Jashnah it sort of breaks with the parts about the author being a heretic (yes Jashnah is one but she never refers to it how the author does) as well as the author not being a philosopher and being dumber then the general reader.

Dalinar makes a lot of sense for every single bit but the shadesmar and the dying/worse part.

Szeth doesn't work well because he DID die.

Evi just feels lame and disappointing

Shallen is intelligent and religious her distaste for spice messes with that part

Kaladin hasn't killed a loved one and isn't being set up to anytime soon.

Who am I forgetting? I feel like it is more likly.Dalinar as his issue can be fixed with a near death experience and trip to shadesmar.

It almost feels like Brandon is trolling us. Parts apply to almost everyone yet not all parts to one person as a whole. I feel like we will slap our foreheads once it is revealed. Of course if it is post Oathbringer some of these may not apply to what we have seen yet. As much as I hate it I'd throw in Gavilar but he better be dead lol. 

[XenosHg]

> Trying to predict who's writing the epigraphs

> I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages

[FiveLate]

I am leaning more and more towards Dalinar.  The Shadesmar bit doesn't trouble me too much, mostly bc we haven't seen how the nightwatcher works.  We know the majority of the ones we have seen have to mostly deal with cognitive effects.  The process of bestowing the curse and boon might have an effect of viewing into Shadesmar while is is being enacted, much as spoilers from a reading not yet released.

Spoiler

The triple smokestone soulcaster viewing th CR after so much Investiture usage.

This would satisfy the Shadesmar viewing statement.

[maxal]

22 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think we have to remember that this isn’t Adolin’s story. He’s not a main character. As such his importance is only in regard to his effect on other characters. So if it was his story I would want to see more of HIS issues from his perspective. But since it isn’t, doing so runs the risk of having a secondary character become too prominent. 

Up until now, Adolin’s focus has been external. He’s been focussed on the issues of the people around him, allowing him to be their foil. In THIS book Adolin’s focus is more internal; that makes him less capable of filling that role. Adolin’s struggles may be interesting to us, but they are not the focus of these books.

Now I, as a reader, feel that another possibility would have been to have Adolin act as a foil for SHALLAN, with him mirroring her as they both fall apart from their secrets. Brandon chose to go another route, possibly because he had too many stories to juggle and/or Adolin is going to disappear from the narrative in parts 2-4. It’s also possible that Brandon isn’t seeing him as a foil/mirror for Shallan. Or that he preferred the shock of Adolin unexpectedly shattering. Or didn’t want to go too psychological thriller. (I’m a fan, but I know a lot of people aren’t.) He May also have found that they mirrored to well, in which case Adolin -as the lesser character - had his arc discarded as redundant.

There is also the possibility that Adolin was becoming too popular, or that his story overrode the main characters. In which case, diminishing him actually is very important. You don’t want readers latching on to a character who is important in part 1, then spend the rest of the book going ‘where is that guy?’

Failing a WoB, I guess we’ll just have to wonder...

This is the knot of the problem now, isn't it? How it isn't Adolin's story, how he is not important to the main narrative? And yet, he's the character Brandon gave a massive cliffhanger too back in WoR. He's one of the top viewpoint character and as such, SA is as much his story as it is other character's story: we can't state it isn't his story. He is right here in the middle of it, he has as many viewpoints as Dalinar in WoR. Had Brandon not want to make it Adolin's story, then he shouldn't had him murdered Sadeas, he shouldn't have given him so many viewpoints in WoR: he should have left him into the background where he planned to put him within his first outlay of the story.

But he didn't and since he didn't, there will always be readers whom are going to expect something other than "acting as a foil to Shallan, Dalinar or anyone else". There will always be readers to argue putting into into a permanent backseat just isn't the right continuity for his character. 

I personally refuse to believe Brandon purposefully wrote Adolin in a way hoping the readers would dislike his character in order to diminish his popularity. No author would/should have for goal to disengage their readers from a given character, no matter the character. Adolin is Brandon's creation, Brandon's invention, Brandon's initiative: the idea Brandon somehow devise a plan to have readers lose interest in Adolin because of the storming plan does not hold the road. It defies everything Brandon has ever said when it comes to his characters.

Thus, if Brandon wrote Adolin in a way which currently displeases me, then it must be because he has a later purpose. Not having read what it is just yet makes it hard to have realistic reactions. Still, I completely refuse to believe Brandon wrote OB while thinking Adolin is too popular and he needed to destroy it.

20 hours ago, Pattern said:

Dalinar also wishes the marriage would be finally done. With Vorin background we can assume that Dalinar and Evi have not been intimate, yet. So an important part of "love" is still missing. He could still grow to love her. Two years of courting might seem long, but with all the campaigning those two might have had precious little face to face time.

I also think that Evi loved Dalinar much more than the other way around. I also think it is too early to tell for sure.

Actually, Dalinar states the battle he is about to head into was the first one in two years. Therefore, him and Evi likely had plenty of time to get to know each other. They don't click which isn't to say they won't get close later on, but clues so far indicate Evi hasn't been a great love for Dalinar.

18 hours ago, SLNC said:

It reflects Adolin's naivete. I wasn't too surprised, but man, I thought I was blunt and tactless sometimes, but Adolin is another level in that. Though, to be fair, Shallan didn't really react to the revelation, so I won't put too much blame on Adolin at the moment. Still, Adolin man... Not even a short question?

It is kinda why I hoped, that Kaladin would talk with Shallan about that... Adolin seems to lack the crem dung detector Kaladin has regarding when Shallan hides herself away, like how he immediately noticed in the carriage during the menagerie visit in WoR. Though maybe he still will, when he returns to Urithiru.

I'm still adamant, that Shallan needs to be confronted with those things, yet Adolin doesn't confront her with these things. Or no, he does, but doesn't pull through then. He definitely doesn't make it easier for Shallan, but it isn't even his fault. Poor guy.

I don't know if this particular scene will hinder Shallan from opening up to Adolin, but... as a general statement, I would agree, that she doesn't seem very ready for it right now.

Quite frankly, I think Adolin could teach a whole classroom onto the art of being tactless and blunt. Suffice to say if we wanted to find out more on how Adolin managed to lose all of those girls, even the ones he did try to keep, then we just did. He just can't keep his foot out of his mouth. I feel sorry for him, he didn't mean bad, but he does bad.

This being said, I think part of Adolin's reaction (or lack of reaction) probably comes from the fact he is a soldier and he has been very keen on being a perfect soldier since the beginning of the book. Being a soldier, another soldier dying is routine. As such, it probably didn't even crossed his mind Shallan might be affected by the death because: 1) it happened over a year ago, 2) Helaran was killed in a legit battle by his enemy. The fact Shallan might be angry at the killer likely didn't registered: when you are a soldier, you can't be angry your opposing force kills some of your fellow soldiers, not when the battle is fair.

Hence, he doesn't get it. He's also very absorbed by Amaram, so he is not exactly within the right mind frame to start worrying about Shallan, just as she often isn't within the right mind frame to worry about him.

I do agree Shallan needs to be forced to confront things, to be challenged and I do agree Adolin doesn't do that. I also agree, within this scene, they did not work so well, but we'll see how it evolves. I am not sure it will hinder Shallan from opening up, but I fear without Adolin literally dragging the truth out of her, she may never voice it.

18 hours ago, SLNC said:

I'd feel the same regarding Helaran, but for Shallan family is everything. When Pattern said, that she would get her revenge on him, because she will kill him at the end of WoR, Shallan said, that she doesn't want revenge, but wants her family. Helaran is a part of that. She's not thinking like a rational person about it, but I can't really blame her.

Maybe Mraize's information, which I suspect is, that Mraize knows why Helaran was at the field of battle where he was killed by Kaladin, will help her get another perspective.

Family is everything, but keeping on worshiping the brother who abandoned them, who left them to be abused by their father, they whom were children is really being in denial. Helaran was crem. He left them behind. He caused Shallan to murder her father. He should have been there for them.

7 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I think this is exactly the reason why so many are following him ! It's not like the Alethi are the most moral class there is. He was the epitome of the Alethi society at that point in his life. I don't think they cared much who he killed, even if they were his own people, as long as he showed strenght and power. That's the whole reason why people started ridicule him since the beginning of WoK, because he wasn't showing the same barbarous character that made him famous. 

Seems extreme though, but I don't disagree with your analysis. Alethi pride strength and military abilities: they never seemed to care about collateral damage, though many of the Kholins foes called them barbarous. And they were right, so I am going to assume they just are too afraid to stand up to them, just as Ialai said.

7 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I don;t think they had a great love story, I am positively sure that Navani remained Dalinar's first great love throughout these years, but I have a feeling he got to love Evi as well, in a different way. I would argue that the reason it's not stated in the final version, that he hates her and he's only annoyed & frustrated could be a point to the posibility of him growing to love her. We don't see him living a relationship with her, we barely see some of their interaction in this chapter, so I wouldn't be so sure this sets the tone of their whole story.

I think it's been three years where Dalinar didn't had any major events or personality changes happening, all this time he was wishing for more war. My feelings are that, after Dalinar realised why is he capable of, by thinking of killing his brother, his ferocity died down a bit and Evi's kindness was something that guided him towards a more stable path. Of course, this is only wishfull thinking from my part as I don't think we have enough information to predict something certain. I am really curious to see how Dalinar was between this incident and the time he was dead drunk in the night Gavilar died. I don't think he had any noble aspirations as he has now, but I doubt he remained constant for 20-30 years.

I am also positively sure Navani is the only woman Dalinar ever loved. Truly. I agree he probably came to "love" in his own way Evi, but it wasn't "real love", just "fondness".

Or maybe he never really warmed up to her.

I do not think this scene was Dalinar's lowest point, just a hunch.

9 hours ago, Alderant said:

Thank you. That's as honest an analysis as I've seen on this sequence yet. Especially coming from someone as pro-Adolin as yourself.

I try to be fair to characters, even those I prefer. If Adolin puts his feet into his mouth, I will call him out for it. This scene wasn't his most brilliant moment within the series. This being said, the fact he makes such mistakes are what makes him a better character.

9 hours ago, Alderant said:

I think she's idolized Helaran in her head. She has a head-canon from her girlhood of Helaran being this loving older brother who was always attentive to her and her desires. This is a really common phenomenon when siblings are as much younger than older siblings as Shallan and Helaran are--they idolize the older sibling, practically worship them. So to Shallan, she would be angry over someone killing her favorite older brother.

Yeah, well I am just annoyed the older Shallan never once reflected on the fact her favorite brother abandoned them and left them to fend for themselves. Where was he when they needed him? Oh yeah, fighting for someone else.

9 hours ago, Alderant said:

I think you missed the mark here. I don't think she was doing it in this situation because of her broken past, but rather because Kaladin was directly involved. I don't think she has realized just how she feels about Kaladin yet. I think she's still wrapped up in making the betrothal with Adolin succeed, but this section was surprisingly tender (even for me) in her reaction.

 

I personally think it is premature to state (or hint) Shallan's reaction happened because she feels something towards Kaladin. Kaladin is someone she trusted, he is the only individual she ever told the truth and he betrayed her. Whatever she feels towards him is not really important as betrayal is betrayal. Whether it comes from a friend or a romantic interest, in the end what hurts is when you trusted the person. Shallan trusted Kaladin, he broke this trust. If she feels something more tender towards him, then future scenes will highlight it in a more decisive manner. This week does not allow us to conclude much in this regards.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I personally think it is premature to state (or hint) Shallan's reaction happened because she feels something towards Kaladin. Kaladin is someone she trusted, he is the only individual she ever told the truth and he betrayed her. Whatever she feels towards him is not really important as betrayal is betrayal. Whether it comes from a friend or a romantic interest, in the end what hurts is when you trusted the person. Shallan trusted Kaladin, he broke this trust.

What? How did he break her trust? It's not like he went around and told people, that she killed her father...

There was another thing, that @Starla mentioned in another thread, showing how Kaladin didn't even really have to the chance to speak with her about it:

Quote

 

Regarding Kaladin not telling Shallan the truth, I don’t think he’s had much of a chance so far. When Shallan told him that Amaram had her brother’s shardblade, and Kaladin realized the truth of what he had done, they were in a life or death situation in a tiny hole in the wall during a highstorm. It was possible they wouldn't live through the night. Shallan was shivering, afraid, and telling her life story to distract herself from a bad situation. I don’t think this was the best time for Kaladin to say “Oh by the way, I killed your brother.” I think telling her in that moment, when she is relying on him for comfort, would be a bit insensitive.

After the storm they hobbled back to the war camp as quickly as possible, and she left with Dalinar and the army later in the same day. His leg was broken and he couldn’t move around much. The next time he saw her was in Urithiru. There was a five day period between the time they arrived through the oathgate and the time they met with Dalinar at the top of the tower, then Kal left for Hearthstone. We don’t know what happened in those five days. Perhaps he could have pulled her aside and told her. However, we know that on her first night in Urithiru, Shallan confronted the truth about her mother’s death. At the start of Oathbringer, she is still trying to process that truth. Throughout the book so far, she seems to be alone a lot, not interacting with the people around her. I doubt she was hanging out with Kaladin much in those first few days, and he was probably getting his 1000 men settled in Urithiru and he didn’t take the time to seek her out and tell her.

 

She has to repress her welling emotions regarding Kaladin's involvement in Helaran's death thrice. She herself was surprised by how much the revelation hurt.

Anyway, that isn't the only sign of subconscious feelings:

1. "Brightlord Brooding-Eyes" - slightly mocking nicknaming in a positive context. Standard sign of affection.

2. Who tells us whenever Kaladin sent a new glyph? No, not Dalinar, which would be the more apt choice, but Shallan. She keeps track of him. Even though she already has enough on her plate.

Edited October 26, 2017 by SLNC

[Leyrann]

12 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

It's either in ASoIF that someone ties themselves and hangs, to sleep, while they are climbing a wall. Or it's something I've seen rock climbers do.

Both, actually. GRRM probably stole it from rock climbers, and Brandon probably did as well.