[Theory] Hoid was a Direct Perpetrator of the Shattering

[MistbornAlpaca Gyorn]

Okay, here's what I'm basing this theory on. First, from what I understand, we know that Hoid was present, at the Shattering of Adonalsium. Next, we know that Hoid was offered a Shard, and refused to take it. (please note that this is my personal understanding, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

Now, here's my evidence. This all comes from the chapter heading of Part 4 of WoR. These chapter headings are a letter from Frost to Hoid, in reply to Hoid's letter to Frost, through the chapter headings of one of the parts of TWoK. Here are my quotes:

• "Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain." (Chapter 66, "Stormblessings")

                  This seems to me to be Frost expressing grief over causing the Shattering of Adonalsium. Because what else would happen if your God was killed, than chaos?

• "However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we--as infants-- stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem." (Chapter 68, "Bridges")

                   This, to me, seems to imply that they countered Adonalsium's diving design, in shattering him.

• "He bears the weight of God's own diving hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become. (Chapter 71, "Vigil")

                    This I think, is the most telling of the quotes. "He is what we made him to be..." How else would they have made Rayse full of hatred, than Shattering Adonalsium, and giving him the Shard of Odium?

• You, however, have never been a force for equilibrium. You tow chaos behind you like a corpse dragged by one leg through the snow. Please, hearken to my plea. Leave that place and join me in my oath of nonintervention. (Chapter 74, "Striding the Storm")

                    Let me refer back to the first quote, "Our interference has brought nothing but pain." Although this could be referring in general, to Hoid's interference in important events, but based on the context and the other quotes, I'm going to go with he sowed chaos by Shattering Adonalsium.

More Implications: If Hoid directly shattered Adonalsium, with the help of Frost, and neither of them received a Shard (I'm assuming Frost isn't a Shard), then it was in order to prevent some terrible thing from happening, not to grow in power. (Although I'm sure that those who helped him had that as at least a secondary motive.)

Conclusion: Hoid shattered Adonalsium, with the help of Frost.

[Solarserpent Ardent]

Actually the first quote kind of sounds like Hoid and Frost may have created Adonalsium.

"Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain." (Chapter 66, "Stormblessings")

 

[Toaster Retribution Prime]

I defenitely agree, Hoid (and maybe Frost too) encouraged the Shattering. I think the 16 vessels did the "Shattering" part themselves, but I do think that Hoid was the mind behind everything. The Loki figure who tricked them into doing it.

[MistbornAlpaca Gyorn]

8 minutes ago, Solarserpent said:

Actually the first quote kind of sounds like Hoid and Frost may have created Adonalsium.

"Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain." (Chapter 66, "Stormblessings")

 

Oooooh! I like this idea, but something tells me it's a little far-fetched, but who knows? Maybe it will happen.

 

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I defenitely agree, Hoid (and maybe Frost too) encouraged the Shattering. I think the 16 vessels did the "Shattering" part themselves, but I do think that Hoid was the mind behind everything. The Loki figure who tricked them into doing it.

Exactly what I was thinking. Great minds think alike!

[Rogueshar Obligator]

I like it. I wish there was a bit more evidence then just the letter in WoR, but there's not a lot of information out there so I won't fault you for that. If Hoid didn't directly help with the Shattering, I think it likely he helped provide information that could help or something.

[AngelDeath Pahn Kahl]

This theory of the shattering sounds a lot like a much higher power level version of Mistborn era 1. A bunch of people get together to kill they're god. They have good reasons for doing it. But have to deal with all the unforeseen consequences.  

[EC11 Noble]

Personally I think Hoid wasn't the total mastermind, but part of a diverse group of interests. Hoid may have had more of an understanding of the implications, but from what Frost says, they didn't fully understand what the implications of killing god would be. I think Frost seems to believe there was/is a greater plan, but doesn't grasp what it is. From what he's saying it appears to be hindsight that has wrought misery with their actions. So while the 16 gaining shards seems to have been an intent of almost all parties, I think that the consequences are well beyond what was expected.

I think we have too limited an understanding to fully speculate on how and why Adonalsium was shattered, but I personally think Hoid has less of a leading role than we think.

[Kal Bridgeman]

I just listened to a part in Secret History where Preservation tells Kelsier that the 16 vessels for the shards attacked Adonalsium together in kind of a joint assault. He also implies a slight disdain or annoyance regarding Hoid. I'll have to dig up the exact quotes, but his words seem to contradict this theory.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Kal
misspelling

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

On 10/20/2017 at 3:03 PM, MasterJack said:

Next, we know that Hoid was offered a Shard, and refused to take it.

We know for a fact that this happened, but a Vessel can step down from Shardhood. This means that it is entirely possible for a Vessel to have felt like taking a rest and offered the Shard to Hoid whenever he showed up on their Shardworld.

On 10/20/2017 at 3:03 PM, MasterJack said:

This, to me, seems to imply that they countered Adonalsium's diving design, in shattering him.

Per Peter, the "workshop" line was more metaphorical.

Quote

9

Botanica

However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we - as infants - stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem.^[5]

What does the "workshop" mean? Is it related to the "touch and design of Adonalsium”?

Peter

This is just metaphorical. It’s like a scientist has set up an intricate experiment in a workshop, with all types of equipment in precise places, and the person writing here doesn’t want people bumbling through and dislodging things.

---

As an aside, I don't think we actually know if Hoid was present at the Shattering. He almost certainly was, but I'm not sure if we have anything outright stating it, which is a fun bit of trivia.

[Wreith High Prelan]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

As an aside, I don't think we actually know if Hoid was present at the Shattering. He almost certainly was, but I'm not sure if we have anything outright stating it, which is a fun bit of trivia

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 17th, 2012

Writing for Charity Signing (Verbatim)

QUESTION

How about a confirmation one? We have a secondhand report from Miyabi actually, that says that Hoid was at the Shattering of Adonalsium. Was he there?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes he was.

 

The One Who Connects' comment that the shards could step down is true and makes me wonder if perhaps:

Spoiler

Leras had the presence of mind to ask Hoid during the events of Secret History.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Wreith
added idea about who offered a shard.

[Kal Bridgeman]

I found the quotes I was looking for in Secret History.

Regarding Leras’ annoyance directed at Hoid, he tells Kelsier, “I had thought that when he rejected the rest of us, he would stop interfering. I should know better than to trust an implication from him. Hald the time you can’t trust his outright promises.”

Regarding Hoid’s shattering Adonalsium: Khriss tells Kelsier, “Sixteen people, together, killed Adonalsium, ripping apart and dividing its essence between them becoming the first who Ascended.”

If Khriss is correct, then Hoid likely did not participate in the actual Shattering and certainly did not act alone, even if he did participate. However, it is still possible (though I doubt it) that Hoid orchestrated the Shattering.

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:59 PM, Wreith said:

The One Who Connects' comment that the shards could step down is true and makes me wonder if perhaps:

  Hide contents

Leras had the presence of mind to ask Hoid during the events of Secret History.

Per the WoB, Hoid was offered a Shard that we have yet to see. This technically doesn't rule out your suggestion, unless you hold Brandon's usage of singular(non-plural) to mean that there was only one instance where Hoid was offered a Shard.

[Starganderfish Bridgeman]

On 10/21/2017 at 7:03 AM, MasterJack said:

 

More Implications: If Hoid directly shattered Adonalsium, with the help of Frost, and neither of them received a Shard (I'm assuming Frost isn't a Shard),

Curious why the assumption that Frost isn't a Shard?

Spoiler

 

(bold emphasis is my own)
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#5
QUESTION
Was Bavadin nonhuman?
BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO. There is at least one Shard who wasn't human, but I'm not ready to reveal who was or wasn't just yet.

Hoids Letter: Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
(Implying that immortality is something "acquired" by Frost, not something inherent)

 "Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before."
WOB : "There is one who just wants to hide and survive."

Khriss in Secret History: "Other planets," she repeated gently. "Yes, there are dozens of them. Many are inhabited by people much like you or me. There is an original, shrouded and hidden somewhere in the cosmere. I've yet to find it, but I have found stories."

Hoids Letter: Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm.

 

The second letter is very cagey and deliberately vague and obtuse about how it speaks of Shard's, and of both Hoid and Frost - it's very much playing what they call the "pronoun game" (The purpose of the game is usually to obscure someone's gender or identity to the audience (or other characters - TV Tropes)

 

Knowing that Frost was at the shattering along with Hoid, and Hoid was offered a Shard, maybe Frost was offered one as well. If Frost is a Shard, the one who just wants to hide and survive and is not a Worldhopper, he's probably holed up on Yolen and keeping it hidden from the rest of the Cosmere.

My guess is that Hoid and possibly Frost where pulling the strings behind the Shattering (a bit like Kelsier and the Lord Ruler - Hoid and Kelsier have a lot in common) Post-Shattering, Hoid refused a Shard but Frost accepted one. This new knowledge and power revealed ... something... to Frost about Odium,  the fate of the cosmere, and a possible Big Evil on it's way, and this scared him to the point he pulled into his shell and is basically trying to hide now. Hoid has an inkling what's coming as well, and is working to get the Shards either reunited or at least working together, and want's Frost to pull his head out of the sand and help, before Odium splinters any more shards and destroys their last hope to defeat the Big Bad. 

Assuming there is a Big Bad of course.

[theuntaintedchild Oldblood]

41 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

Was Bavadin nonhuman?
BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO. There is at least one Shard who wasn't human, but I'm not ready to reveal who was or wasn't just yet.

Hoids Letter: Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
(Implying that immortality is something "acquired" by Frost, not something inherent)

 "Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before."
WOB : "There is one who just wants to hide and survive."

Khriss in Secret History: "Other planets," she repeated gently. "Yes, there are dozens of them. Many are inhabited by people much like you or me. There is an original, shrouded and hidden somewhere in the cosmere. I've yet to find it, but I have found stories."

Hoids Letter: Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm.

I have never made the connection that you are implying here. I love it.

[ElephantEarwax Dakhor Monk]

1 hour ago, Starganderfish said:

Curious why the assumption that Frost isn't a Shard?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(bold emphasis is my own)
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#5
QUESTION
Was Bavadin nonhuman?
BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO. There is at least one Shard who wasn't human, but I'm not ready to reveal who was or wasn't just yet.

Hoids Letter: Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
(Implying that immortality is something "acquired" by Frost, not something inherent)

 "Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before."
WOB : "There is one who just wants to hide and survive."

Khriss in Secret History: "Other planets," she repeated gently. "Yes, there are dozens of them. Many are inhabited by people much like you or me. There is an original, shrouded and hidden somewhere in the cosmere. I've yet to find it, but I have found stories."

Hoids Letter: Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm.

 

The second letter is very cagey and deliberately vague and obtuse about how it speaks of Shard's, and of both Hoid and Frost - it's very much playing what they call the "pronoun game" (The purpose of the game is usually to obscure someone's gender or identity to the audience (or other characters - TV Tropes)

 

Knowing that Frost was at the shattering along with Hoid, and Hoid was offered a Shard, maybe Frost was offered one as well. If Frost is a Shard, the one who just wants to hide and survive and is not a Worldhopper, he's probably holed up on Yolen and keeping it hidden from the rest of the Cosmere.

My guess is that Hoid and possibly Frost where pulling the strings behind the Shattering (a bit like Kelsier and the Lord Ruler - Hoid and Kelsier have a lot in common) Post-Shattering, Hoid refused a Shard but Frost accepted one. This new knowledge and power revealed ... something... to Frost about Odium,  the fate of the cosmere, and a possible Big Evil on it's way, and this scared him to the point he pulled into his shell and is basically trying to hide now. Hoid has an inkling what's coming as well, and is working to get the Shards either reunited or at least working together, and want's Frost to pull his head out of the sand and help, before Odium splinters any more shards and destroys their last hope to defeat the Big Bad. 

Assuming there is a Big Bad of course.

That is interesting, the thought the Frost is a shard...

[Wreith High Prelan]

I was extremely convinced that Frost didn't hold a shard, but I can't find WoB so I'm just gonna go sit in a corner and reconsider everything I thought I knew

[Pagerunner Prime]

2 hours ago, Wreith said:

I was extremely convinced that Frost didn't hold a shard, but I can't find WoB so I'm just gonna go sit in a corner and reconsider everything I thought I knew

From Boksone, back in February:

Quote

Questioner

We know that Hoid is really old. Is there anyone else around that same age who is not a Shardholder?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He communicates with one of these people by a letter in one of them.

 

[Wreith High Prelan]

5 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

2 hours ago, Wreith said:

I was extremely convinced that Frost didn't hold a shard, but I can't find WoB so I'm just gonna go sit in a corner and reconsider everything I thought I knew

From Boksone, back in February:

Quote

Questioner

We know that Hoid is really old. Is there anyone else around that same age who is not a Shardholder?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He communicates with one of these people by a letter in one of them.

 

yay I'm not crazy. That from Theoryland? Couldn't find it to save my life. Shardholder and letter didn't get me there.

[MistbornAlpaca Gyorn]

For a second there I thought that maybe Frost was a Shard, but that last WoB kind of burst my bubble, but that's okay, at least we have confirmation now. I still can't figure out what Hoid's purpose in Shattering Adonalsium was though, although I'm keen on the idea that the Vessels offered him Odium or something and he was smart enough to turn it down. I guess we'll just have to wait and see on all of this...

[Pagerunner Prime]

48 minutes ago, Wreith said:

yay I'm not crazy. That from Theoryland? Couldn't find it to save my life. Shardholder and letter didn't get me there.

It is not in Theoryland. This one, I pulled from Arcanum (which will be launching publically within a week). Theoryland doesn't have anything from this past year; I (and several others, actually) had taken to maintaining personal databases for recent stuff, since situations like this had been arising more and more frequently. But that will all be abated with the new archive coming out.

[Wreith High Prelan]

10 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

It is not in Theoryland. This one, I pulled from Arcanum (which will be launching publically within a week). Theoryland doesn't have anything from this past year; I (and several others, actually) had taken to maintaining personal databases for recent stuff, since situations like this had been arising more and more frequently. But that will all be abated with the new archive coming out.

excellent. Is this why there seems to have been an uptick in quoting without sourcing or am I just imagining things there?

-edit-
sorry, I don't actually mean to derail this thread. can PM unless others are interested.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Wreith

[Starganderfish Bridgeman]

16 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

From Boksone, back in February:

 

Ah, so that's pretty clear that Frost isn't a shard. Thanks for clearing that up.

It does raise an interesting point as to who is the non-human shard? We haven't met many sentient non-humans in the Cosmere, and apart from the afore-mentioned Dragons, most of them date from after the Shattering

Spoiler

(Seon's, Kolos, Kandra).

Roshar seems to have more than it's share of intelligent species, and it seems to have a history before the Shattering that other worlds lack.

Spoiler

The Parshendi/Parshmen/Listeners are considered non-human I think?

Spren are also sentient, at least a little and some pre-date the shattering:  They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness.  But, the Seons are self-aware.  So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there.  Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. 

I haven't read White Sand so unsure if there's any sentient creature from that. None of the other cosmere stories seem to fit.

What else could this mysterious non-human shard be?

[Fezzik Soulcaster]

@Starganderfish, yeah. White sand takes place on taldain, watched over by the shard Autonomy, who is the leading candidate for being a non-human shard. He/she/it/xe is probably a dragon.

[MistbornAlpaca Gyorn]

8 hours ago, john203 said:

@Starganderfish, yeah. White sand takes place on taldain, watched over by the shard Autonomy, who is the leading candidate for being a non-human shard. He/she/it/xe is probably a dragon.

I think that's the best guess we have on who the non-human Shard is. Having so many different personas with different genders makes her a prime candidate. If I was a non-human Shard, interacting with humans and other Shards that are human, I would want to make myself look like a human, to fit in. After that point, creating multiple personas would also help cover up what she was trying to do in hiding her true identity.

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

10 hours ago, Starganderfish said:

What else could this mysterious non-human shard be?

Dragons or Shodel.

Quote

NutiketAiel

Were the original sixteen Shardholders after the shattering all human?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh … RAFO. There are three races on Yolen. Three sentient races.

Quote

Q: You've once said that there were three sentient species on Yolen: Human, Dragon and Shodel. We've seen a lot of 'people' on the different planets that were either descended from or intentionally based on humans. Frost is known to be a dragon. Are any of the non-human species we've seen descended from or based on either Dragons or Shodel?
 
A: RAFO!

---

On 11/3/2017 at 1:00 PM, Wreith said:

Is this why there seems to have been an uptick in quoting without sourcing or am I just imagining things there?

Not really. It's generally a time/effort thing, as most people who've pulled from Arcanum have mentioned it(under various names, such as WoBinator 4000). There's also the google doc transcripts floating around the web, such as this one. Or general laziness.
The only one who doesn't usually source is Extesian, but that's because he's used to pulling up like 5-10 entries on a subject at once, so sourcing would take forever. His is more habit than anything secretive.