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[OB] Dullform Rhythms


Wreith

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Can Dullform sense the rhythms or not?

I've seen a lot of comparisons between them and Slaveform where people seem to think they can't.

I know on my first read-through of the books, I thought they couldn't and Coppermind also says they can't.

Re-reading WoR though, I'm getting mixed signals.

I-4: Last Legion:

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"Nobody asked it," the malen said to no rhythm at all. His voice sounded dead.

then I-11: New Rythms

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"No." Zuln spoke to Peace.

The dullform member of the Five sat slouched, looking at the ground before her.

 

I put this in the Oathbringer spoiler board because of the prologue. It seems to indicate that the Parshendi assumed the Parshmen were stuck in dullform, but still expected them to have rhythems

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Where are there songs?

 

It seems to me that dullform CAN speak to the rhythms, but generally doesn't.

This leads me to another question: Can other forms ignore the rhythms? I assume not or they wouldn't have assumed dullform to escape their gods.

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The DullForm Listeners hear the Rhytms but probably with their limited sapience they found difficolt to speak follow the Rhytms.

By the way, if the DullForm isn't capable of hearing the Rhytms...they will probably stuck Forever in that form ad they Will be uncapable to attuning to the ringht Rhytm to complete a proper trasformation

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This quote about Zuln leads me to believe that generally, dullform can hear the rhythms:

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The representative of the dullforms rarely spoke. She wore the smock of a parshman, and had indicated that she considered it her duty to represent them— those with no songs— along with any dullforms among them.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 205). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

4

The passage makes a special distinction between Zuln's representation of dullform Parshendi and parshemen, "those without songs," indicating that dullform do have songs. From my reading of the scene with the malen dullform Parshendi that Eshonai encounters, I got the sense that his lack of rhythm was related to the despair that drove him to seek dullform. 

Shen/Rlain is only described as using rhythms when he's changed out of dullform, but this seems to be because the humans would have noticed a parshman who spoke too much like a Parshendi. In fact, when he's introduced as Rlain, he's specifically described as speaking like a Parshendi.

That said, you may be onto something interesting. I don't think that non-dullform Listeners are able to shut off the rhythms. This could suggest that the reason they chose dullform was because it's "rhythm-optional," and that it was the only way to cut off contact with their gods. More evidence that the rhythms are connected to forms of power and that this will be an issue, both for the Listeners and for the parshpeople Kaladin is traveling with.

ETA: Ninja'd!

Edited by Frostlander
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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They can. Dullform is not broken in the way that slaveform is. It's precisely why I wrote this theory. 

 

umm. okay. Having read that thread previously, that's not even close to what I got from it...

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2 minutes ago, Wreith said:

umm. okay. Having read that thread previously, that's not even close to what I got from it...

Dullform still has the portion of their spiritweb that allows them to detect the rhythms and bond to spren. Slaveform does not. 

They appear similar, but are in no way the same. 

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The prevailing theory (as I interpreted it) is that their connections (their minds) have been repaired by the Everstorm but they haven't bonded a spren yet, so they are incomplete. There is mention of a day of first transformation by Eshonai's mother. If this is the case then the transformed parshmen are like overgrown children, full sized but they haven't hit puberty yet. 

Dullform can hear and follow the Rhythms. I would actually expect that they would follow the Rhythms very closely since they lack the mental capability to go against them. The Dullform Listener speaks in the Rhymth of Peace because it is the right time of day for it. The "higher" forms, Warform and Stormform can ignore this rhythm at will.

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5 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

Dullform can hear and follow the Rhythms. I would actually expect that they would follow the Rhythms very closely since they lack the mental capability to go against them. The Dullform Listener speaks in the Rhymth of Peace because it is the right time of day for it. The "higher" forms, Warform and Stormform can ignore this rhythm at will.

I don't think, other than in the highstorm, when the rhythms all become the same, time effects them. They are all going continuously. 

I think Zuln chose the rhythm of peace intentionally to help convey meaning, just as we see other Parshendi use the rhythms for in speech. 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think, other than in the highstorm, when the rhythms all become the same, time effects them. They are all going continuously. 

I think Zuln chose the rhythm of peace intentionally to help convey meaning, just as we see other Parshendi use the rhythms for in speech. 

They do use the Rhythm of peace to keep time.

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Her meeting with the rest of the Five wasn't scheduled until the third movement of the Rhythm of Peace, and she had a good half a movement until then.

 

14 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

The "higher" forms, Warform and Stormform can ignore this rhythm at will.

I don't think the higher forms can ignore rhythms entirely though, like dullform can

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Yes, they use the rhythms to keep time, I meant that the rhythms don't become dominant dependent on time. They all exist, and can all be attuned independently. 

Zuln, and by extension all dullforms, can attune rhythms just like all the other Parshendi. The ones sent to spy just speak without them, because chanting Parshmen would undermine what they are doing. 

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18 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

New thought i just had, could the Rhythms be something akin to the Thrill? As in it is sourced from Unmade?

I can't find anything to disprove this directly, but I seriously doubt it.

The Rhythms are spiritual in nature.

The Parshendi existed before the shards arrived and were (presumably) already bonding lesser spren, which requires singing their songs (by their tradition. Whether or not it's an "actual" requirement, I'm not sure we can say)

We do, however, have a WoB that seems to indicate that the Highstorms occur to something like a rhythm. So I think the Rhythms of Roshar have always been there before the Unmade

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INTERVIEW: Jan 21st, 2015

ZENBOSSANOVA

This last one I got, was really interesting. I asked about predicting High Storms, because I was thinking of making a Stormwarden manual. I figured if Tolkien started with linguistics because he was a word nerd, then what is a math teacher supposed to do? I asked if knowing the positions/orbits of the moons would be enough to predict the storms.

BRANDON SANDERSON

He said not enough. You need the historical records of storms as well because there is a pattern. You need that pattern and the tides, to correctly predict the timing of the storms. He said it was more than a simple beat. I then turned back and asked, “Are you saying the High Storms are music?” He replied, “I didn’t say they were music. (emphasis on ‘say’). You said that.”

FOOTNOTE

Questioner's speculation: I figured that was better than a denial or RAFO, so I let it drop. I am strongly reminded of the Listeners and their rhythms.

 

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9 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

It came around a few weeks ago. I happen to like it. 

First I've heard of it.

Possible I suppose. Not sure how a group associated with creation give themselves to destruction though. Rlain tells us their gods were Those ancient who gave themselves to destroy

But of course there are only three Dawnate languages. Not sure how to explain Shin in that group though. I shall have to research.

 

edit: ooooh I'm wrong. Kabsal (unreliable possibly) Says they didn't create things. They were "healers, kindly spren sent by the Almighty..."

I'm officially on board with the theory for now, evidence lacking as may be.

Edited by Wreith
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13 minutes ago, Wreith said:

I'm officially on board with the theory for now, evidence lacking as may be.

Glad to have you on board! And yea, all our theories are lacking information, we are all grasping at straws for the next month. 

 

EDIT: and while this isnt proof, if in fact the Unmade were the Dawnsingers, then it also makes sense why they were called Dawnsingers because they were the source of the Rhythms. 

It also makes since that the Listeners had more access to the Rhythms, because they werent corrupted yet. Once they became corrupted, their Rhythms became more Void-y and now that the Listeners rejected them outright. they only have access to the most basic of Rhythms (maybe though the final Dawnsinger that wasnt corrupted into Unmade?). 

 

Edited by ChazBolt
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5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yes, they use the rhythms to keep time, I meant that the rhythms don't become dominant dependent on time. They all exist, and can all be attuned independently. 

Zuln, and by extension all dullforms, can attune rhythms just like all the other Parshendi. The ones sent to spy just speak without them, because chanting Parshmen would undermine what they are doing. 

Interesting information. I had previously read it as a daily progression in a set order. I forget all of the names, but I was thinking that there were certain rhythms that began and ended throughout the day: morning rhythm, lunch rhythm, and so on. I hadn't caught on that the rhythms were always going and didn't stop. 

I should have picked up on that earlier since everything on Roshar is musical or rhythmic (written language is a vibration track, storms in a pattern, dawnsingers). I had assumed that the rhythm of peace was a like a symphony (long but not that long) and not a day long song on repeat. 

Reminds me of the Simarrillion where Eru sings the world into existence.

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@ChazBolt the rhythms do not come from an Unmade. They are a Cosmere wide phenomenon that manifests differently on Roshar than else. What they are... No clue.

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Rasarr (paraphrased)

If you took a Parshendi... If a Parshendi was born beyond Roshar and never visited it, could they sense the Rhythms?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You mean Rosharan...

Rasarr (paraphrased)

I mean, just generally Rhythms.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Rhythms are... it's something that permeates the Cosmere, and just manifests in a different way on Roshar.

Rasarr (paraphrased)

Oh, so is it the same thing that Soothers and Rioters are using?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, now you're straying into RAFO territory...

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Ansalem1

Hypothetically, if all of the Listeners were to go extinct would the Rhythms still exist?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

WeiryWriter

Are there any other species in the cosmere that also interact with the Rhythms like the listeners do? (Though not necessarily in the same way?)

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

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