[OB] The voidspren isn't

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

The Stormfather existed before Honor's death so he can't be Tanavast's Shadow.

As Honor died, his Shadow merged with the Stormfather and inherit his Connection and probably his memories.

In the Regard of the Highstorms, they predate the Shards' arrival on Roshar and they were Invested from before H&C's arrive

I also asked this question over at the Q&A board, but where do we know from that the highstorms regard the arrival on Roshar? I haven't been able to find a WoB on it, though I have to admit that I'm not experienced at searching.

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I also asked this question over at the Q&A board, but where do we know from that the highstorms regard the arrival on Roshar? I haven't been able to find a WoB on it, though I have to admit that I'm not experienced at searching.

The highstorms predate the Shattering. 

Quote

Questioner

You mentioned the ecology on Roshar, and also you mentioned that mostly the non-sentient spren predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. So my question is about the evolution of life on Roshar, and how essential the highstorms are to life on Roshar, how the plants evolved, so can we assume that life that is dependent on the highstorms predates the Shattering of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… You--

Questioner

Can we correctly assume?

Brandon Sanderson

--yeah, *laughter* I'll tell you this. The highstorms predate, and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar, resulting in a lot of what we have there.

 

[BlackYeti]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

The Stormfather existed before Honor's death so he can't be Tanavast's Shadow.

Brandon apparently disagrees with you:

(Mistborn Era 1 spoilers)

Spoiler

Quote

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what happens when Shards die?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After they dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive shadow". For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive shadow, and he's semi sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody.

FOOTNOTE

In this case, shardholder means vessel.

 

source

 

Quote

QUESTION

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

 

source

Quote

BLACKYETI

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a splinter?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(paraphrased) The stormfather is a cognitive shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

 

source (if that's really needed here since this one comes from me.)

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by BlackYeti

[Yata]

40 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

Brandon apparently disagrees with you:

(Mistborn Era 1 spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

He didn't disagree with what I said, you notice how he avoided to say too complex (or plot related) stuff.

There is no way for the Stormfather to be so young (he would be younger than Syl just to say). He is part of the Listeners' lore as the Rider of the Storm, Pattern explicity stated the Stormfather was one of the few spren to survive the Recreance (an event happened before Honor's death) and the Stormfather himself stated that Dalinar was the first to bound it from thousands of years.

 

By the way, if the Stormfather was "simply" a Tanavast's Shadow, he would not have a fraction of his power/Investiture. A CS is high Invested for a mortal PoV but it's poorly Invested for a Splinter's pov.

The Rider of the Storm was already a powerful Spren (similarry to the Nightwatcher probably) and upon Honor's death he merged with his Shadow, something that mostly made him inherit the connections Tanavast had. Strictly spreaking the actual Stormfather is a merging of a Sliver and a Spren

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Yata

[BlackYeti]

17 minutes ago, Yata said:

He didn't disagree with what I said, you notice how he avoided to say too complex (or plot related) stuff.

You clearly stated that the Stormfather is not Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. Brandon clearly stated, on multiple occasions (my list of WoBs wasn't even exhaustive) that the Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, and even specified him as Honour's Cognitive Shadow. This is as plain a disagreement as you could possibly get.

I do not disagree with any of your other points: the Stormfather obviously hasn't always been a Cognitive Shadow, this does not mean that he is not a Cognitive Shadow now. The WoBs explicitly indicate that he is. I actually suspect that he's a fundamentally different entity now than he was back before his merger with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, neither the Stormfather of old nor Tanavast, but something new, born from them both.

[KidWayne]

Anyone else notice how Syl got the yellow spren's gender wrong?

Quote

"And that other spren is still here too. A higher spren, like me.”

"Where?” Kaladin asked, twisting.

“He’s invisible to you,” Syl said, becoming a group of leaves and blowing around him. “I think I’ve fooled him into thinking I’m just a windspren.”

She zipped away, leaving a dozen unanswered questions on Kaladin’s lips. Storms… is that spren how they know where to go?

The column started again, and Kaladin walked for a good hour in silence before Syl next decided to come back to him. She landed on his shoulder, becoming the image of a young woman in her whimsical skirt. “He’s gone ahead for a little bit,” she said. “And the parshmen aren’t looking.”

“The spren is guiding them,” Kaladin said under his breath. “Syl, this spren must be…"

“From him,” she whispered, wrapping her arms around herself and growing small—actively shrinking to about two-thirds her normal size. “Voidspren.”

Compare this to...

Quote

The spren beside him was glowing yellow, not blue-white. The tiny woman stood on a translucent pillar of golden stone that had risen from the ground to put her even with Kaladin’s gaze. It, like the spren herself, was the yellow-white color of the center of a flame.

She wore a flowing dress that covered her legs entirely. Hands behind her back, she inspected him. Her face was shaped oddly—narrow, but with large, childlike eyes. Like someone from Shinovar.

Kaladin jumped, which caused the little spren to smile.

Is there more than one spren? Remember that Kaladin couldn't speak to Syl during this whole exchange with the yellow spren.

What does it mean that Syl got the gender wrong?

Edited October 23, 2017 by KidWayne

[Wreith]

4 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Anyone else notice how Syl got the yellow spren's gender wrong?

Compare this to...

Is there more than one spren? Remember that Kaladin couldn't speak to Syl during this whole exchange with the yellow spren.

What does it mean that Syl got the gender wrong?

I did notice that.

But it says there were several groups brought together by other yellow spren, right?
So I wasn't reading much into it yet.

[Calderis]

@BlackYeti Brandon's use of the word Cognitive Shadow in that first WoB is a simplification intended to answer the question. The second is a paraphrase. @Yata is correct.

A Cognitive Shadow is, whether you believe it a copy or the original, the Cognitive Aspect of a person. For the Stormfather to be just honors Cognitive Shadow, it would be the exact same personality as Tanavast in Dalinar's visions, and this is clearly not the case. The Stormfather and Tanavast's shadow merged, and the Stormfather gained those connections, but he is far more than just that. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata]

@Calderis @BlackYeti

The main problem in define the Stormfather is its simply nature. It's the merging of two mutual exclusive concepts so we don't have really a precise way to call it.

- A Sliver is some mortal who held so much Investiture to have his Soul replaced by pure Investiture, upon his death it can become if willing a Cognitive Shadow.

- A Splinter is Investiture that becomes sentient and was never human/mortal before.

How call something that is both ?

The Stormfather could act as Tanavast's Shadow but strictly speaking he is not, he is an Hybrid. I like to see it as a Shard's parody but it's still a poor definition. The Returneds are probably the beings closer to the Stormfather but still there is something off in the comparation

Edited October 23, 2017 by Yata

[BlackYeti]

@Calderis, where, precisely, did I state that the Stormfather was just a Cognitive Shadow? As I recall, I never made that claim.

Also, it was the third WoB that was paraphrased, not the second, and as I was the person he was talking to in the paraphrased WoB, I can say with certainty that he said the words: "The stormfather is a cognitive shadow". And I disagree that an answer being a simplification invalidates the WoB, he could have easily have simplified it in a way that doesn't involve lying. E.g. "the Stormfather has gained Honour's memories", or "the Stormfather merged with Honour's Cognitive Shadow" (he's actually used that one before. 

I'm also far from convinced that the definition of Cognitive Shadow is as restrictive as you claim. I realise that you're using a definition set by WoB, but that could easily have been simplified itself. It wouldn't be the first time that Brandon's given us a definition that excludes edge cases.

In any event, I agree with @Yata's revised claim of the Stormfather's nature being a hybrid. It doesn't mean that he can't be categorised as a Cognitive Shadow, but also indicates that there's more going on.

[Canucck]

3 hours ago, KidWayne said:

Anyone else notice how Syl got the yellow spren's gender wrong?

Compare this to...

Is there more than one spren? Remember that Kaladin couldn't speak to Syl during this whole exchange with the yellow spren.

What does it mean that Syl got the gender wrong?

Syl mentioned that the "old spren" (pre-shard spren?) have 4 genders. Could be related...

 

Quote

She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.”

 

[FiveLate]

4 hours ago, Canucck said:

Syl mentioned that the "old spren" (pre-shard spren?) have 4 genders. Could be related...

 

 

And the listeners to which the original bonds were also 4 gender and neither of Honor nor Cultivation but pure Uncle Andy.  One of the listener songs talk about how many of these spren abandoned the listeners in favor of the more "meaty" humans. 

Whatever was trapping the listeners into Parshman form has obviously been broken by the Everstorm.  The same device (plot not necessarily physical) could have been limiting or trapping the yellow spren.  If that was the case, the yellow spren could be pure Adonalsium spren and actually be more neutral than odious in intentions. 

Syl also just says him.....to which we implicate Odium, but it could be Adonalsium.  The yellow spren also states that her mind are less discerning, willing to bond with listeners or humans.  We know many groups of spren went to the humans, but not all.  Those groups that did not all go to the humans might have been switch hitters picking either.  

Honor and Cultivation both pervaded human culture, but listener culture predated their arrival.   By shifting to humans, the spren might have aligned themselves more with Honor and Preservation.  

I have never really liked the association of voidspen and voidbringers directly to Odium since Odium is anything but a void.  A void being an emptyness and divine hatred being anything but empty.  

What is these yellow spren are Voidspen, but in the seance that they are empty of a Shardic intent.  Odium would have no issues with simply taking over I would think if there was a way to divest his Investature later.  Eshonai shows free will is not needed.  Honor and Cultivation intended to Invest Roshar, which could have been the reasons humans were brought to Roshar in the first place.  To woo the voidspen to Honor and Cultivation initially via the humans away from the Listeners.  The Hearalds could have been a stop gap measure to place fairly large amounts of Investiture into the Rosharan system quickly.

[Canucck]

 

22 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

I have never really liked the association of voidspen and voidbringers directly to Odium since Odium is anything but a void.  A void being an emptyness and divine hatred being anything but empty.  

I've been interpreting "void" sort of as the nothingness left behind by their, and Odium's destruction. With the Desolations it really seems like he wants to wipe out pretty much everything on the planet. So I think the voidspren are probably evil, and of Odium. I like the idea of them being void of a Connection to any of the Shards, but it just seems like there's too much evidence pointing towards them being connected to the desolations and Odium.

However, since Honor/Cultivation spren learned how to bond Humans from the Honorblades, I think it might be reasonable to assume that void/Odium spren learned how to bond with the Listeners from something else, since their bond seems to work quite differently. Maybe they learned from these old spren?

Edited October 23, 2017 by Canucck

[Leyrann]

7 hours ago, FiveLate said:

And the listeners to which the original bonds were also 4 gender and neither of Honor nor Cultivation but pure Uncle Andy.  One of the listener songs talk about how many of these spren abandoned the listeners in favor of the more "meaty" humans. 

Whatever was trapping the listeners into Parshman form has obviously been broken by the Everstorm.  The same device (plot not necessarily physical) could have been limiting or trapping the yellow spren.  If that was the case, the yellow spren could be pure Adonalsium spren and actually be more neutral than odious in intentions. 

Syl also just says him.....to which we implicate Odium, but it could be Adonalsium.  The yellow spren also states that her mind are less discerning, willing to bond with listeners or humans.  We know many groups of spren went to the humans, but not all.  Those groups that did not all go to the humans might have been switch hitters picking either.  

Honor and Cultivation both pervaded human culture, but listener culture predated their arrival.   By shifting to humans, the spren might have aligned themselves more with Honor and Preservation.  

I have never really liked the association of voidspen and voidbringers directly to Odium since Odium is anything but a void.  A void being an emptyness and divine hatred being anything but empty.  

What is these yellow spren are Voidspen, but in the seance that they are empty of a Shardic intent.  Odium would have no issues with simply taking over I would think if there was a way to divest his Investature later.  Eshonai shows free will is not needed.  Honor and Cultivation intended to Invest Roshar, which could have been the reasons humans were brought to Roshar in the first place.  To woo the voidspen to Honor and Cultivation initially via the humans away from the Listeners.  The Hearalds could have been a stop gap measure to place fairly large amounts of Investiture into the Rosharan system quickly.

I have to say I really like this idea, also because Brandon sure does like his twists.

Indeed, Odium doesn't have much to do with 'ceasing of existence', so to say; after all, if there's no sentience, there's no hatred (literally: "The Shard's intent, Odium, means two things: the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others." (from coppermind)). He cannot provoke hatred from others without there being people around, and he cannot hate anything either; it gets kinda boring to hate giant rocks or balls of heated gas, after all. Additionally, just look at Sel; the Shards are splintered (though, again, not wholly gone, with seons and whatnot), but the world still exists.

"Void" in regards to Adonalsium, however, would actually make quite a bit of sense; after all, with Adonalsium shattered, is there not a void left behind in the 'place' he occupied?

[powerfulmoss]

On 10/18/2017 at 0:00 PM, Leyrann said:

To expand upon this, I came across a question asked to Brandon before the release of WoK (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=747#5), which says that all the spren we are running into (but only in the first and maybe second book) are of Honor and Cultivation. I'm not sure wheter this is intentional or not, but Brandon is excluding later spren, which might include spren that are part Odium and part Honor/Cultivation.

Small thought while reading this:

We have seen a few new spren since the Everstorm, including Gloomspren, which could be partly of Odium. The Gloomspren at least must have been previously present in the CR however as Syl mentioned that she used to hunt them.

Perhaps the everstorm somehow unlocked the spren of Odium from the CR as well as "healing" the parshman, or perhaps the two are connected.

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, powerfulmoss said:

Small thought while reading this:

We have seen a few new spren since the Everstorm, including Gloomspren, which could be partly of Odium. The Gloomspren at least must have been previously present in the CR however as Syl mentioned that she used to hunt them.

Perhaps the everstorm somehow unlocked the spren of Odium from the CR as well as "healing" the parshman, or perhaps the two are connected.

"Kaladin looked up and noted an unusual spren whipping about. Long, grey, like a tattered streamer of cloth in the wind. It wound around him, fluttering. He’d seen its like only once or twice before."

Kaladin has seen them before, so they existed before the Everstorm as well. That said, they can still be related to Odium, as they aren't introduced in the first two books (so we as readers haven't seen them before), and that might very well be why they are rare and hunted by other spren.

[powerfulmoss]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

"Kaladin looked up and noted an unusual spren whipping about. Long, grey, like a tattered streamer of cloth in the wind. It wound around him, fluttering. He’d seen its like only once or twice before."

Kaladin has seen them before, so they existed before the Everstorm as well. That said, they can still be related to Odium, as they aren't introduced in the first two books (so we as readers haven't seen them before), and that might very well be why they are rare and hunted by other spren.

Ah of course, maybe my thoughts at the time were that they were more prevalent now. I've not read the new chapters since the first reading but I remember thinking that Kaladin and Shallan were surprised that Gloomspren and Shamespren were noticed so regularly.

[Blacksmithki]

On this idea of voidspren not being of odium because a void doesn't fit well with hatred, their name could just be a name given by humans and not their proper name, like for the Dustbringers (releasers). Many Spren have somewhat less then accurate names, highspren would be lawspren, Honorspren would be better named moralityspren, and cryptics are anything but cryptic.

[ShardplateJoe III]

It does seem likely that voidbinding is Odium's magic on Roshar. Remember, the voidbringers, Odium's agents of destruction in the desolations, were there to destroy humans. The reason being, Odium wants to destroy all of the humans on Roshar, and in so doing be free to wreak hateful havoc on a Cosmere-wide scale. Most modern Rosharans know nothing of the bigger picture, only that the voidbringers want to end humanity. Thus, it seems likely that they would deem Odium's magic voidbinding, since it is an apparent opposite to sugrebinding that is used to kill humans and bring the void.

[shawnhargreaves]

7 minutes ago, TheTigerKandra said:

Remember, the voidbringers, Odium's agents of destruction in the desolations, were there to destroy humans. The reason being, Odium wants to destroy all of the humans on Roshar, and in so doing be free to wreak hateful havoc on a Cosmere-wide scale.

Do you have a source for this?

Unless I missed something, I think you're making several BIG assumptions that may not be warranted.  So far we've seen a couple of things that might be voidbringers, but don't know for sure what those are.  We assume they were Odium's agents, but don't know that for sure either.  We do know (from Dalinar's visions) that voidbringers come along with the desolations, and that they were very destructive, but I don't think we know what the end goal of the desolations, or of Odium, is (those last may or may not be the same).

I've been thinking recently about the difference between Ruin and Odium.  I think there is a danger of coloring our reactions to Odium by what we know about Ruin, but should remember these are different intents.  "Destroy all humans" is what Ruin would want!  Odium just wants to hate all humans (and all listeners too for that matter).  Hatred works best if you sustain it and feed it without ever completely destroying what you hate.  And it works best of all if you have two or more sides to participate in hating each other at the same time (humans and listeners, anyone?)

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Ive got a couple of cents to throw in.!

Im going with Voidspren of Odium, based on the color correlations between said Spren and..

Memba when Dalinar saw the Champion, and the golden color / hue we saw at the end of the vision? (Im guessing this is Odiums color)

And memba the color this spren radiated? Golden pillars of light and the such..

Im thinking theres a connection here and im going to run with it 

On another note, ive theorized that Voidspren are corrupted Radient Spren!

Cooked this up when i saw that voidbinding chart and its similarity to the radient chart.

To add another peg.. Notice how this yellow "Voidspren" looks similar to Syl? Memba Kaladin nearly spoke to her as if she was Syl before he noticed she was golden and not blue, different dress (though Syl can.. change clothes) more angular features.

Sooo.. anyone else seeing a corupted Honorspren here?

The truth is out there..

!~ HIF ~!

[ShardplateJoe III]

2 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Do you have a source for this?

Unless I missed something, I think you're making several BIG assumptions that may not be warranted.  So far we've seen a couple of things that might be voidbringers, but don't know for sure what those are.  We assume they were Odium's agents, but don't know that for sure either.  We do know (from Dalinar's visions) that voidbringers come along with the desolations, and that they were very destructive, but I don't think we know what the end goal of the desolations, or of Odium, is (those last may or may not be the same).

From the Coppermind:

Quote

Unlike many Shards, which usually stay on their own worlds, Odium moves through the cosmere, causing havoc. 

Quote

Odium's ultimate goal is indeed terrible: he seeks to be the most powerful being in the cosmere. To this end, he kills other Shards (namely Aona, Skai^[6], and Tanavast^[9]). But, instead of picking up those Shards (and becoming more and more powerful as he increases his Shard count), Rayse does not want to be unduly influenced from other Shard's intents.^[10] He feels that Odium matches him perfectly. So, he Splinters the Shards he kills, preventing anyone taking up those Shards to challenge him.^[6]

Odium intends to do this to every Shard and be the only Shard left, effectively making him unstoppable and giving him free rein in the entire cosmere. And, Odium appears to have no trouble with killing former acquaintances to progress his goals.

Odium wants to mistreat everything in the cosmere-- not a logical leap, seeing as how he is pure hate given godly form-- and this is why he wants to be the most powerful being in the cosmere, so that he would have nothing in his way.

2 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

I've been thinking recently about the difference between Ruin and Odium.  I think there is a danger of coloring our reactions to Odium by what we know about Ruin, but should remember these are different intents.  "Destroy all humans" is what Ruin would want!  Odium just wants to hate all humans (and all listeners too for that matter).  Hatred works best if you sustain it and feed it without ever completely destroying what you hate.  And it works best of all if you have two or more sides to participate in hating each other at the same time (humans and listeners, anyone?)

I agree with you, that it is important for one to make the distinction between Odium's intent, and Ruin's intent, as that allows us to better grasp the scope of the greater story. Ruin wants everything to be in a state of equilibrium, for entropy to take over, and for nothing in the world to ever vary. I believe there is a WOB out there that states Ruin wants everything to be in a state of entropic equilibrium. All he cares about is the fact that things no longer are working, and he delights in the destruction because it is the mode through which he achieves his goal. Odium hates. His name is a hatred for everything. Some he might kill, yes, but generally speaking he probably just wants to inflict pain and create widespread misery. One of the Way of Kings epigraphs mentions an unnamed "he" destroying the land out of spite. I imagine that this is Roshar, and he would want to destroy the land because of all of his failures there. If Odium were to pick up Ruin, his Intent would change to resemble something more like "Hateful Destruction" or "Ruinous Hate". He would then proceed to destroy things like Ruin, but in a spiteful manner. Causing awful diseases that would spread far and wide, drawing out death in a painful manner. Earthquakes that would proceed for hours, creating apocalyptic scenarios with ultimately fatal, but slow and painful, results. That kind of thing. 

Odium's desire to cause misery would very easily explain why "soon after the Shattering" (Arcanum Unbounded, Kindle edition pg. 417) Odium killed Ambition, he likely acknowledged the threat that a god of equal power whose primary attribute was ambition could pose, how much he could get in the way-- maybe even, like an aspiring darkeyes, want the glory that would come from felling the most dangerous enemy on the field--and eliminated him first. There is no conformation that I know of, but Odium seems to have killed Ambition first. 

Afterwards, he moves on to Sel, kills Devotion and Dominion. Dominion was likely the primary target in this conflict, as Dominion could have been a power-hungry emperor who just wants to expand his borders as far as possible. (Dominion's intent likely wasn't this two-dimensional, but it is not a stretch to see this as one of his intentions.) 

This would likely be around the time that Honor gets involved. A being of righteousness could not stand idly by while people are being targeted for murder. He binds Odium to the oathpact, in a bid to either destroy him or contain him. But, seeing as how Odium is the Cosmere equivalent of the Devil, he would not have consented to be bound by the oathpact unless the terms favored him. I imagine that Honor used himself as bait to get Odium to agree. "I will give you the opportunity to kill me, in a duel. If you fail, you will be able to try again, and again, until either I kill you, or you kill me." Is essentially how I see Honor's conversation with Odium going down. Maybe as part of the deal, Cultivation could not be involved in Desolations, this could explain her current silence. The heralds were likely also chosen and consented to be the bearers on whom the Oathpact rested. In the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive, the heralds tell themselves that leaving one of them in damnation would have been enough. They seemed to make the connection that if they all left, the Oathpact would have ended. 

This makes me wonder now, did Honor and Cultivation go to Roshar intending to cultivate (hehe) a battle ground upon which to duel Odium before binding him to the Oathpact? Did Honor and Cultivation bring men with them, and could that be the origin of the Rosharan belief that they came from the Tranquiline halls? Did Cultivation give the Dawn shards to men to help them learn and grow before Odium's eventual arrival? Did they agree to the Oathpact long beforehand, and chose Roshar as the dueling grounds later? Did Odium even choose Roshar, because he saw how convenient the Parshendi were, how if he would give them the right spren to bond, theirentire temperament would change?

2 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Unless I missed something, I think you're making several BIG assumptions that may not be warranted.  So far we've seen a couple of things that might be voidbringers, but don't know for sure what those are.  We assume they were Odium's agents, but don't know that for sure either.  We do know (from Dalinar's visions) that voidbringers come along with the desolations, and that they were very destructive, but I don't think we know what the end goal of the desolations, or of Odium, is (those last may or may not be the same).

I should not have said agents, seeing as how agents was definitely the wrong word, but rather his pawns. From what we have seen now, it would make sense that Odium triggers Desolations by playing the humans and Parshendi off of each other (I don't know if that is how he did it in the past, but that is definitely how he is doing it now). 

I did make the big assumption though that the extinction of humanity on Roshar is how Odium would win.

Edited October 25, 2017 by TheTigerKandra

[Shadowmancer]

3 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Hatred works best if you sustain it and feed it without ever completely destroying what you hate.  And it works best of all if you have two or more sides to participate in hating each other at the same time (humans and listeners, anyone?)

This, actually, is the best idea I've seen for the true reason why the Recreance and the Absolution of the Oathpact occurred.

23 minutes ago, TheTigerKandra said:

I imagine that Honor used himself as bait to get Odium to agree. "I will give you the opportunity to kill me, in a duel. If you fail, you will be able to try again, and again, until either I kill you, or you kill me."

Imagine you've made the Oaths, lead the life you have, and fought back monsters and terrors, all on the assumption that what you were doing was making the world safer. You thought your bond with your spren would make things right in the world, end the conflict that was tearing the world apart cycle after cycle.

Now imagine you learned that all along Honor's plan was this: use Roshar as a sacrifice to keep Odium sated, culturing hatred however he pleased, while the rest of the Cosmere was left in relative peace. Humans and Parshmen, even the Sleepless, were pitted against each other for the entrapment of divine wrath. Your enemies are merely mutual pawns in the game Odium plays. None of you are of Honor, after all. And your spren, the one who knows you closest of any being in the universe, is a willing participant in this, allowing your species, your culture, your souls, to be used as fodder for Odium's appeasement.

Every battle you have fought you have lost, because the fight always serves Odium. Every evil you have destroyed was merely a cog in the works that kept Odium bound and Roshar under his gaze. You were betrayed on a cosmic scale, by your closest friend and by your god.

Breaking your Oaths and leaving the world to fend for itself might seem like the only option left. As long as Odium is bound to Roshar by the Oathpact, and as long as he has pawns to play with, he will continue to spread destruction and hatred across the world.

Setting Odium free might have seemed the best plan to everyone at that point.

[Leyrann]

7 hours ago, TheTigerKandra said:

I agree with you, that it is important for one to make the distinction between Odium's intent, and Ruin's intent, as that allows us to better grasp the scope of the greater story. Ruin wants everything to be in a state of equilibrium, for entropy to take over, and for nothing in the world to ever vary. I believe there is a WOB out there that states Ruin wants everything to be in a state of entropic equilibrium. All he cares about is the fact that things no longer are working, and he delights in the destruction because it is the mode through which he achieves his goal. Odium hates. His name is a hatred for everything. Some he might kill, yes, but generally speaking he probably just wants to inflict pain and create widespread misery. One of the Way of Kings epigraphs mentions an unnamed "he" destroying the land out of spite. I imagine that this is Roshar, and he would want to destroy the land because of all of his failures there. If Odium were to pick up Ruin, his Intent would change to resemble something more like "Hateful Destruction" or "Ruinous Hate". He would then proceed to destroy things like Ruin, but in a spiteful manner. Causing awful diseases that would spread far and wide, drawing out death in a painful manner. Earthquakes that would proceed for hours, creating apocalyptic scenarios with ultimately fatal, but slow and painful, results. That kind of thing. 

Odium's desire to cause misery would very easily explain why "soon after the Shattering" (Arcanum Unbounded, Kindle edition pg. 417) Odium killed Ambition, he likely acknowledged the threat that a god of equal power whose primary attribute was ambition could pose, how much he could get in the way-- maybe even, like an aspiring darkeyes, want the glory that would come from felling the most dangerous enemy on the field--and eliminated him first. There is no conformation that I know of, but Odium seems to have killed Ambition first. 

Afterwards, he moves on to Sel, kills Devotion and Dominion. Dominion was likely the primary target in this conflict, as Dominion could have been a power-hungry emperor who just wants to expand his borders as far as possible. (Dominion's intent likely wasn't this two-dimensional, but it is not a stretch to see this as one of his intentions.) 

This would likely be around the time that Honor gets involved. A being of righteousness could not stand idly by while people are being targeted for murder. He binds Odium to the oathpact, in a bid to either destroy him or contain him. But, seeing as how Odium is the Cosmere equivalent of the Devil, he would not have consented to be bound by the oathpact unless the terms favored him. I imagine that Honor used himself as bait to get Odium to agree. "I will give you the opportunity to kill me, in a duel. If you fail, you will be able to try again, and again, until either I kill you, or you kill me." Is essentially how I see Honor's conversation with Odium going down. Maybe as part of the deal, Cultivation could not be involved in Desolations, this could explain her current silence. The heralds were likely also chosen and consented to be the bearers on whom the Oathpact rested. In the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive, the heralds tell themselves that leaving one of them in damnation would have been enough. They seemed to make the connection that if they all left, the Oathpact would have ended. 

This makes me wonder now, did Honor and Cultivation go to Roshar intending to cultivate (hehe) a battle ground upon which to duel Odium before binding him to the Oathpact? Did Honor and Cultivation bring men with them, and could that be the origin of the Rosharan belief that they came from the Tranquiline halls? Did Cultivation give the Dawn shards to men to help them learn and grow before Odium's eventual arrival? Did they agree to the Oathpact long beforehand, and chose Roshar as the dueling grounds later? Did Odium even choose Roshar, because he saw how convenient the Parshendi were, how if he would give them the right spren to bond, theirentire temperament would change?

I think this is an extremely good post, as well as the post above mine, to be honest. It just sounds very... logical, though indeed, it does kinda turn Roshar into a butt monkey for the games of the Shards. But hey, better to have just one world suffer under Odium's touch than all of them, right? That would be the honorable choice. A million is, after all, a statistic.

[ShardplateJoe III]

10 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I think this is an extremely good post, as well as the post above mine, to be honest. It just sounds very... logical, though indeed, it does kinda turn Roshar into a butt monkey for the games of the Shards. But hey, better to have just one world suffer under Odium's touch than all of them, right? That would be the honorable choice. A million is, after all, a statistic.

Thank you, I love Brandon's Cosmere for the sheer potential and scope of it all. I think Brandon has said that his original outline for the Cosmere had Mistborn be the spine of the arc, with Stormlight being the center piece-- a turning point in the grand story of the Cosmere. Brandon has made Odium out to be the single greatest threat to the Cosmere, using the letters, and other things to do so. I believe the choices of the Stormlight character will have some of the most profound effects in the Cosmere.