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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 22-24


Mestiv

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Something that I found interesting:

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He had always remembered the difficult years following Evi’s death, which had culminated in his being drunk and useless on the night Szeth, the Assassin in White, had killed his brother. He assumed that he’d gone to the Nightwatcher to be rid of the pain at losing her, and the spren had taken his other memories as payment. He didn’t know for certain, but that seemed right.

So Dalinar's memories of Evi weren't the only memories that the Nightwatcher took from Dalinar. What else did he forget? Is he also going to start remembering these memories? We still no so little about what's going on here! Why couldn't it have included more information on this? :unsure:

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Only a short few comments.

Chapter 22

Ialai not being friends with Mraize is a let down, but likely if I had read this chapter right after chapter 21 I would not feel this way. The week long break built my hopes up. Ialai might just be like her husband. Pity. <_<

I like some guesses here about Mraize's chicken. I agree that bird might not be from Shinovar. 

I wonder if Mraize,  Amaram, or even Adolin will mention to Shallan that it was Kaladin who killed that Shardbearer to protect Amaram. Shallan may learn the truth a book sooner than I thought. :unsure:

Chapter 23

I wonder what happened with those Caravans. I also fear for Revolar.

How is Kaladin going to get his stuff back without causing trouble? I have a feeling he his going to end up going to Kholinar and opening the Oathgate to get home just in the nick of time.

Chapter 24

Taravangain seems to be a bit slower than average in this chapter. That is a likely ideal state for him to be in when he meets Dalinar for the first time in years. Dalinar has no idea what is going on with him.

A Dustbringer! :D

Hey wouldn't it be funny if Kelsier was that fake god-king. He's not, but it would be funny. ;)

So Dalinar is considering going back to his old ways, but his Oaths seem to make that impossible.

I wonder if we will get the last flashback next week. This chapter would be a good lead in to the last Unfettered 2 flashback.

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Teshav had finished pointing out the strange glass panes on the inner walls that seemed like windows, only clouded. She moved on to the pairs of discs on the floor and ceiling that looked something like the top and bottom of a pillar that had been removed—a feature of a number of rooms they’d explored.

This weirdness must be important. I want to say the clouded glass will work like a viewscreen, allowing long-distance face-to-face communication. And the discs are miniature oathgates that allow individual Radiants to move quickly around Urithiru.

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22 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

Something that I found interesting:

So Dalinar's memories of Evi weren't the only memories that the Nightwatcher took from Dalinar. What else did he forget? Is he also going to start remembering these memories? We still no so little about what's going on here! Why couldn't it have included more information on this? :unsure:

I think the "pain" is specifically the memories around her death, and the "other memories" encompass everything else about her.

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3 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I think the "pain" is specifically the memories around her death, and the "other memories" encompass everything else about her.

Hmm... maybe? :unsure:

The problem with that though, if he still remembers her, would he not still feel pain from her absence, even if he can't remember her death? I get the feeling that there's a whole lot more to Dalinar's memory loss than has been suggested thus far.

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So finally finished, haven't read any reactions. 

Mraize is just spying.

The Sprens nature doesn't really allow flight, hence the pillars. 

A Dustbringer. Brave and obedient. A fitting follower of the Diagram. 

And Tezim is looking to be Ishar in my mind. 

Good chapters 

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I think our voidspren is something like a vengeance or revenge spren. 

  • It wonders if Kaladin is willing to fight for them.  I see it as looking at him like a tool for its plans. 
  • It is willing to follow plans and work towards a long-term payoff.  
  • It has hints of meanness in insults but mostly controls them.

It basically feels like a spren of the long-term suppressed hate.  The Parshmen have good reasons to want vengeance and that seems like the spren type that would be closest to Odium and the Parshmen at the same time.

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I've been thinking more about Kaladin's conversation with the Voidspren.

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“Would you fight for us, deserter?” she asked.

“Would I be allowed?”

“My kind aren’t nearly as inclined toward discrimination as yours. If you can carry a spear and take orders, then I certainly wouldn’t turn you away.” She folded her arms, smiling in a strangely knowing way. “The final decision won’t be mine. I am but a messenger.”

Does anyone else think that this sounds suspiciously similar to what that Radiant told Dalinar in his first vision in WoK?

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“No words for me, I see,” the knight said. “Very well. But should you wish to put that mysterious training of yours to use, come to Urithiru.”

“Urithiru?” Dalinar said. He’d heard that name somewhere.

“Yes,” the knight said. “I cannot promise you a position in one of the orders—that decision is not mine—but if your skill with the sword is similar to your skill with hearth-tending implements, then I am confident you will find a place with us.”

The Way of Kings - Chapter 19, Starfalls

Does anyone else think that this could be our first hint of Voidbinding?

Edited by BlackYeti
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Ialai’s comment that someone in the Kholin army killed Sadeas makes me concerned for the bridgemen. They have a strong motive to kill Sadeas and several members of Bridge Four found the body. With Amaram investigating, he may have incentive to discredit Kaladin in some way. If not him directly, then one of his men/squires. I wonder what Adolin will do if one of the Bridge Four guys is accused. He seems to have developed some respect for them and they risked their lives to save Dalinar, Adolin, and a couple thousand Kholin soldiers. I don’t think he'd will let one of them be accused without speaking up.

It’s interesting that Elhokar was not mentioned as a supportive monarch in the meeting with Taravangian. I suppose it is a given, but it seems like he should have been present, or at leased mentioned in some way. He seems less and less relevant as time goes on.

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“If she’s truly a Radiant,” Navani said, “can she be anything but trustworthy? Would the spren pick someone who would act against the best interests of the orders?”

Hello Navani, have you met our friend Nale?

That will be a rude awakening, when they realize that it is not necessarily the best of humanity that are selected, but the ones who best fit the spren's ideals.  Being a good person, or even just a nice person are not required.  Nevermind being a team player.

 

I hope the lesson of Radiance does not equate ally, or trustworthiness does not come at too harsh a price.

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3 minutes ago, Stark said:

Hello Navani, have you met our friend Nale?

That will be a rude awakening, when they realize that it is not necessarily the best of humanity that are selected, but the ones who best fit the spren's ideals.  Being a good person, or even just a nice person are not required.  Nevermind being a team player.

 

I hope the lesson of Radiance does not equate ally, or trustworthiness does not come at too harsh a price.

Nale has no spren, nor any longer a connection to Honor as far as we know.  The point is well-taken otherwise (I agree with the post almost entirely), but that is worth pointing out.  If he had a spren, it would possibly have tried to deflect him from this course.

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1 minute ago, Mulk said:

Nale has no spren, nor any longer a connection to Honor as far as we know.  The point is well-taken otherwise (I agree with the post almost entirely), but that is worth pointing out.  If he had a spren, it would possibly have tried to deflect him from this course.

Are we... sure.. Nale doesn't have a spren? 

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"What are these 'eyes' you say he has?" she asked as Wyndle wound up beside her. "The ones I can't see."

"He will have a spren," Wyndle said. "Like me. It's likely invisible to you and anyone else but him. Most are, on this side, I think. I don't remember all the rules."

I mean, Wyndle could have just been wrong, and not known that Nale was a Herald, but... I don't know that all spren would disagree with his course of action; a Highspren would probably agree, as long as he was following the law. Law above all else, right?

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Just now, dendrophobe said:

Are we... sure.. Nale doesn't have a spren? 

I mean, Wyndle could have just been wrong, and not known that Nale was a Herald, but... I don't know that all spren would disagree with his course of action; a Highspren would probably agree, as long as he was following the law. Law above all else, right?

Yes, we are sure that he doesn't have a spren. He was the Herald to went back for his Honourblade.

Your quote comes from when Lift is tailing Nale back to his headquarters, it was only after spying on them there that they find out his identity. Wyndle's reaction to that information makes it quite clear that he had no idea who Nale was before that point.

Of course, the proto-Skybreakers following Nale would have had a Nahel-bond. The Heralds definitely did not have one however, the spren copied the Honourblades, after all, therefore the Heralds came first.

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Just now, BlackYeti said:

Yes, we are sure that he doesn't have a spren. He was the Herald to went back for his Honourblade.

Your quote comes from when Lift is tailing Nale back to his headquarters, it was only after spying on them there that they find out his identity. Wyndle's reaction to that information makes it quite clear that he had no idea who Nale was before that point.

Of course, the proto-Skybreakers following Nale would have had a Nahel-bond. The Heralds definitely did not have one however, the spren copied the Honourblades, after all, therefore the Heralds came first.

Right, he definitely went back for his Honorblade. 

But, so far as I'm aware, possession of an Honorblade does not preclude him from also bonding a spren. In all likelihood he doesn't have a spren, as he wouldn't really need one if he has his Honorblade, but I wouldn't take that as confirmation either. Until WoB or Nale himself says that he doesn't have a spren, I don't think that we can say for sure.

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44 minutes ago, TheDarkDesperado said:

Silly thought, am I the only one who wants to see Syl react to that like a jealous girlfriend? I can't be the only one who finds that mental image hilarious.

No you are not the only one :D. I don't expect to see such a scene but it would be so funny to read. 

41 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I've been thinking more about Kaladin's conversation with the Voidspren.

Does anyone else think that this sounds suspiciously similar to what that Radiant told Dalinar in his first vision in WoK?

Does anyone else think that this could be our first hint of Voidbinding?

Good catch, I totally missed that and was focusing on the Unmade. -clicks tongue- tricky tunnel vision.

28 minutes ago, Starla said:

Ialai’s comment that someone in the Kholin army killed Sadeas makes me concerned for the bridgemen. They have a strong motive to kill Sadeas and several members of Bridge Four found the body. With Amaram investigating, he may have incentive to discredit Kaladin in some way. If not him directly, then one of his men/squires. I wonder what Adolin will do if one of the Bridge Four guys is accused. He seems to have developed some respect for them and they risked their lives to save Dalinar, Adolin, and a couple thousand Kholin soldiers. I don’t think he'd will let one of them be accused without speaking up.

Its totally possible that will happen. But honestly, wouldn't it just seem like finger pointing in retaliation? Amaram was said to be a murderer and to have broken the most sacred law of Alethkar. So now he goes and says one of the men of the darkeyes he wronged is a murderer. Seems like a weak attempt to shift blame. But with alethi anything can happen. They could say the squires now have the power to act, etc. I have very little respect for overall alethi culture as a whole as might be visible in my posts :P.

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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1 minute ago, dendrophobe said:

But, so far as I'm aware, possession of an Honorblade does not preclude him from also bonding a spren. In all likelihood he doesn't have a spren, as he wouldn't really need one if he has his Honorblade, but I wouldn't take that as confirmation either. Until WoB or Nale himself says that he doesn't have a spren, I don't think that we can say for sure.

Possession of an Honourblade definitely does not preclude a Nahel-bond, otherwise, Dalinar would have a serious problem right now.

However, why would Nale want his Honourblade if he's got a Nahel-bond? He's still following the tenants of the Skybreakers, so if he did, he would have to be bonded to a highspren. What benefit, then, would he get from his Honourblade? If the spren could bond the Heralds, why did they never do so in the past?

All of the evidence at this point suggests that Nale has no spren. At this point, there is no issue with assuming the truth of that proposition.

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1 minute ago, BlackYeti said:

Possession of an Honourblade definitely does not preclude a Nahel-bond, otherwise, Dalinar would have a serious problem right now.

However, why would Nale want his Honourblade if he's got a Nahel-bond? He's still following the tenants of the Skybreakers, so if he did, he would have to be bonded to a highspren. What benefit, then, would he get from his Honourblade? If the spren could bond the Heralds, why did they never do so in the past?

All of the evidence at this point suggests that Nale has no spren. At this point, there is no issue with assuming the truth of that proposition.

As to your first point, I'd argue that Dalinar doesn't really have the Honorblade right now. Instead of dismissing it, as we know is possible, he hid it in a toilet. We haven't actually seen him use its power or do more than pick it up briefly. The same was true at the end of WoR when Kaladin briefly held it. We have WoB that someone who already has a Nahel-bond can pick up an Honorblade, and it will slightly augment his/her power. However, we have nothing on whether someone who holds an Honorblade, or a Herald at all, can bond a spren. A Herald would probably have difficulty bonding a spren due to the Investiture interference issue, but given enough time there's probably a way around that.

As to why Nale would want both, I can't say. We never got a WoB on when Nale went back for the Honorblade. We tend to assume that it was immediately after, but what if it was centuries later? He could very well have gone off, lived a while, bonded with a Highspren, and then gone back and taken his Honorblade from the Shin or whoever had it at the time. Maybe he didn't actually want both, but also didn't want anyone else using his blade.

In all likelihood, you're correct, and he doesn't have a spren. Occam's razor and whatnot. But it is possible.

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