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Iron Twinborn Compounder Flight


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Just now, Scion of the Mists said:

Interesting.  I've always assumed that pushing and pulling worked in virtually the same way.  It doesn't make sense to me to require line of sight to pull on an object, but not push on it.  Or do you mean that you have to "see" an object to begin pushing on it, and then subsequently don't have to view it anymore.  This seems like a strange assumption to make - I don't remember them every talking about it in the books.  

I tried to give a clearer example in my near simul-post just now.

You DO need a "line of sight" to begin to Push on a specific object, that's clear; Wax's "bubble" being something of a weird special ability to do a general Push instead of a selective one. You don't always need to "hold" the Push. In fact Kelsier mentions this as something a Coinshot should learn to do when firing coins as a projectile weapon, to let the instantaneous initial force of a sharp, hard Push do the work, and leave the constant Pushing for when you're intentionally trying to use a coin as an anchor for Pushing off of (like with the horseshoes). (Vin's first ever Push was like that, she Pushed on a coin until it hit a wall, then she flew backwards.)

So, same thing for Pulling, except now, what you can achieve with a Pull is different from a Push, because of the "line of sight" bit to start the directed and specifict act of Pulling. (Leaving aside the concept of a "ironbubble" of generalized Pulling.)

 

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9 minutes ago, Kaj said:

That is definitely true.

So if there were a city of skyscrapers with skybridges connecting them, they would be golden, right? I love the cage match idea.

I think we should ask Brandon on this one. To me, I always thought if you tried hard enough, you could sense nearby sources of metal and their location relative to you. There is no evidence for this and you're probably right, but it might be a cool savant ability.

Back to the savant reference. It's a possibility. Otherwise, you're right it would be a ton of extra effort, but if you didn't really have a choice of what misting you were would you put in the effort? I would.

Nah. Like I said, I've given way more thought than is reasonable as to "what if I were Lurcher instead of a Coinshot living in Manhattan?" and the answer was, "I sure as hell wouldn't try flying - I'd be a human subway car".

Note: I would probably "fly" by staying below the height of the shortest buildings with metal frames, which in midtown Manhattan at least, would still allow me to fly pretty routinely and safely at a height of up to about 5 stories high, and even higher (much higher) in many stretches. I wouldn't be flying above the buildings, but definitely above the street. But getting out to the suburbs would be a literal downer.

Edited by robardin
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16 minutes ago, robardin said:

Let me describe it this way: if I were a Lurcher, I couldn't just sit here in my office chair and "feel out" to discover and then Pull something to me that's on a shelf behind me and have it hit me in the back, even if I knew the shelf had lots of metal stuff. I'd have to turn and look at the shelf to see the blue lines pointing to stuff, and then pull on one of them. Or, look at the stuff on the shelf, pick a particular item, retain the ironline with a very light Pull, then I could walk around the room at will with that line still in place, and Pull it as necessary. But if I let go of that ironline, I'd have to look at it again to re-estabish it.

I always subscribed to the "ESP" version that you described above.  It honestly never occurred to me that it would be any other way.  

Do they ever talk about whether or not line of sight is required in the books?  I don't recall them ever showing people having to look backwards to establish anchors.  For example, in a pushing match between two Allomancers.  Do they both have to push on the coin in between them and then both look backward to find an anchor?  

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2 minutes ago, robardin said:

I tried to give a clearer example in my near simul-post just now.

You DO need a "line of sight" to begin to Push on a specific object, that's clear; Wax's "bubble" being something of a weird special ability to do a general Push instead of a selective one. You don't always need to "hold" the Push. In fact Kelsier mentions this as something a Coinshot should learn to do when firing coins as a projectile weapon, to let the instantaneous initial force of a sharp, hard Push do the work, and leave the constant Pushing for when you're intentionally trying to use a coin as an anchor for Pushing off of (like with the horseshoes). (Vin's first ever Push was like that, she Pushed on a coin until it hit a wall, then she flew backwards.)

So, same thing for Pulling, except now, what you can achieve with a Pull is different from a Push, because of the "line of sight" bit to start the directed and specifict act of Pulling. (Leaving aside the concept of a "ironbubble" of generalized Pulling.)

 

I think, having a general understanding of the Cosmere, if you are aware of the object I think you can still affect it. For a metalmind, you have to know it is a metalmind in order to use it. If it is an unsealed one, (I can't find the WoB on this right now) they have to be aware of how it works.

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2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I always subscribed to the "ESP" version that you described above.  It honestly never occurred to me that it would be any other way.  

Do they ever talk about whether or not line of sight is required in the books?  I don't recall them ever showing people having to look backwards to establish anchors.  For example, in a pushing match between two Allomancers.  Do they both have to push on the coin in between them and then both look backward to find an anchor?  

Well if you could just "feel out" metals with Allomantic iron or steel, what's the point of the detailed description of the blue lines?

The first time we see this kind of allomancy is when Kelsier burns steel:

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Translucent blue lines sprang into existence around him, visible only to his eyes. Each one led from the center of his chest out to a nearby source of metal. The lines were all relatively faint—a sign that they pointed to metal sources that were small: door hinges, nails, and other bits. The type of source metal didn’t matter. Burning iron or steel would point blue lines at all kinds of metal, assuming they were close enough and large enough to be noticeable.

Kelsier chose the line that pointed directly beneath him, toward his coin. Burning steel, he Pushed against the coin.

If the "blue lines that pointed at metal" weren't a key part of it, Brandon could just have written "Kelsier reached out and felt for his coin among the many metal objects of different sizes within his range" or something very "standard fantasy" like.

Even more so, reread when Vin first burns iron (ahead of Kelsier's instructions): she doesn't gain some kind of new metalsense; she sees lines she can Pull on.

Quote

She eyed Kelsier, then carefully burned that unknown metal. Again, the lines sprang up around her, pointing in seemingly random directions. The lines moved with her. One end of each thread stayed stuck to her chest, while the other end remained attached to a given place along the street. New lines appeared as she walked, and old ones faded, disappearing behind. The lines came in various widths, and some of them were brighter than others. Curious, Vin tested the lines with her mind, trying to discover their secret. She focused on a particularly small and innocent-looking one, and found that she could feel it individually if she concentrated. She almost felt like she could touch it. She reached out with her mind and gave it a slight tug. The line shook, and something immediately flew out of the darkness toward her. Vin yelped, trying to jump away, but the object—a rusty nail—shot directly toward her.

If the lines were just indicative of sensing it... Why add that they were BLUE, which is a purely visual thing?

Edited by robardin
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So.... Discussion Value

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Herowannabe
I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brandon Sanderson
No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little. :)

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Yes as Inquisitors demonstrate, you don't have to literally see with eyes for steelsight, but Inquisitors still turn their heads to look at things at various points... So it's not like a non-directional sense, I think it's basically a visual plug-in

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my problem with this is anchoring. i just don’t think that a mistborn would have to turn around to look for an anchor before pushing on something big. while brandon typically mentions what their anchor is, i can’t remember him stating that the coin shot/mistborn frantically turning around looking for an anchor. 

my impression was always that being able to be aware of the blue lines around you comes with burning iron/ steel. if a mistborn closes their eyes they can still see blue lines. i don’t think it makes much sense that they could exclusively see the metal in front of them if they close their eyes. 

i don’t think inquisitors can also only see things in front of them, it wouldn’t make sense to think that their eyesight works like normal eyes, only seeing what is in front of them. 

i haven’t ever seen a WoB saying a coin shot can only see blue lines in front of them, or can only see something behind them if they saw it while it was in front of them first. if somebody finds one please share! 

 

Edited by etmental
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The main reason I think a literal line of sight is needed for Pulling on a specific anchor is because the lines are always and consistently described as "blue". You don't feel "blue", you see it, unless they're lines of emotional pathos or BB King guitar licks they can "hear" :)

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In re-reading WoA, during one of Vin's nightly duels with Zane, she pushes on things behind her quite often. I'm not currently at book, but I remember her specifically getting in midair Steelpushing matches with Zane. She then Pushes on things behind her with no mention of turning around to brace herself against Zane. While this isn't Iron, I assume it still allies.

TL;DR: In WoA, Vin Pushes on stuff behind her without looking.

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12 minutes ago, Apollyon said:

In re-reading WoA, during one of Vin's nightly duels with Zane, she pushes on things behind her quite often. I'm not currently at book, but I remember her specifically getting in midair Steelpushing matches with Zane. She then Pushes on things behind her with no mention of turning around to brace herself against Zane. While this isn't Iron, I assume it still allies.

TL;DR: In WoA, Vin Pushes on stuff behind her without looking.

I totally agree. As long as you know it's there, I think you can push/pull on it.

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On 5/30/2018 at 9:44 PM, Kaj said:

I totally agree. As long as you know it's there, I think you can push/pull on it.

Right. And as I think of it, you don't gain mental "spidey-sense" or ESP like awareness of metal with Allomancy, you gain the ability to see lines of blue that are thicker/deeper the larger the metal object is. If you Push or Pull on something continuously that's one thing, but you can't Push/Pull on something you've Allomantically released that is no longer showing the blue line to you.

If a Lurcher tied in a chair in a dark room could just "know" there was a metal door behind them, why is the Allomancy always described as having "blue" lines instead of the way spidey-sense is described?

I am not saying it couldn't work the "spidey-sense" way, just that I have always thought it worked the way I describe it from the very first Mistborn book, and have never read something to contradict it. It could be, for example, that the lines are actually side effects of a "metal sense" that takes time with use to develop, but is only what a first-time burner like Vin In Training notices. But that's never shown in a POV, is it?

As for Vin's Pushing match with Zane in midair that involved Pushing on stuff behind her without looking, that's exactly why I think A-Steel is more useful for flying in a city than Iron (what started this whole tangent), because you'd only need to see/know the coin in your hand as you Pushed it away from yourself, in the "constantly maintained Push" not "burst fire Push" mode, until it hit a large building or the ground that would serve as an anchor instead of getting moved itself. You could do that in any direction. But. Lurcher has the opposite requirement, he has to know his anchor to Pull on.

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How about this: can anyone find a reference to an Allomancer Ironpulling on something behind them without having first seen and Pulled on the object from in front of them (or turning to look at it)?

We don't actually see Pulling as much as Pushing, and I've already explained why you wouldn't need to see the "end" of a Push but would for a Pull on my It's All Based On Those Blue Lines model, so if I'm wrong, there would be a counterexample.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

As for Vin's Pushing match with Zane in midair that involved Pushing on stuff behind her without looking, that's exactly why I think A-Steel is more useful for flying in a city than Iron (what started this whole tangent), because you'd only need to see/know the coin in your hand as you Pushed it away from yourself, in the "constantly maintained Push" not "burst fire Push" mode, until it hit a large building or the ground that would serve as an anchor instead of getting moved itself. You could do that in any direction. But. Lurcher has the opposite requirement, he has to know his anchor to Pull on.

@robardin, wouldn’t that make the balance of Push/Pull obsolete?

I mean, what about Wax’s generalized steelpushes? Could a Lurcher never attain a ‘general direction Pull’?  

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45 minutes ago, Apollyon said:

@robardin, wouldn’t that make the balance of Push/Pull obsolete?

I mean, what about Wax’s generalized steelpushes? Could a Lurcher never attain a ‘general direction Pull’?  

Who says paired metals are equivalent for purposes of combat or flying? They're balanced in effect, not interchangeable in operation. Plus, there are settings (like the steel cage match I mentioned) where a Lurcher would be advantaged over a Coinshot.

As for an iron "bubble", I guess that's possible but mainly useful for beachcombing for coins :)

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2 hours ago, robardin said:

Right. And as I think of it, you don't gain mental "spidey-sense" or ESP like awareness of metal with Allomancy, you gain the ability to see lines of blue that are thicker/deeper the larger the metal object is. If you Push or Pull on something continuously that's one thing, but you can't Push/Pull on something you've Allomantically released that is no longer showing the blue line to you.

If a Lurcher tied in a chair in a dark room could just "know" there was a metal door behind them, why is the Allomancy always described as having "blue" lines instead of the way spidey-sense is described?

I am not saying it couldn't work the "spidey-sense" way, just that I have always thought it worked the way I describe it from the very first Mistborn book, and have never read something to contradict it. It could be, for example, that the lines are actually side effects of a "metal sense" that takes time with use to develop, but is only what a first-time burner like Vin In Training notices. But that's never shown in a POV, is it?

As for Vin's Pushing match with Zane in midair that involved Pushing on stuff behind her without looking, that's exactly why I think A-Steel is more useful for flying in a city than Iron (what started this whole tangent), because you'd only need to see/know the coin in your hand as you Pushed it away from yourself, in the "constantly maintained Push" not "burst fire Push" mode, until it hit a large building or the ground that would serve as an anchor instead of getting moved itself. You could do that in any direction. But. Lurcher has the opposite requirement, he has to know his anchor to Pull on.

I think you misunderstood. I mean that if you were walking down the street, and you had passed a metal gate, you already know where that gate is relative to you. You could then mentally select to pull in the direction of the gate. It would be the same as if you mentally pulled on the line. A better way to say this is you know where that line is that is pointing at you, so even if it is out of your normal range of vision you know which it is and where it leads to so you should be able to pull on it.

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2 hours ago, Kaj said:

I think you misunderstood. I mean that if you were walking down the street, and you had passed a metal gate, you already know where that gate is relative to you. You could then mentally select to pull in the direction of the gate. It would be the same as if you mentally pulled on the line. A better way to say this is you know where that line is that is pointing at you, so even if it is out of your normal range of vision you know which it is and where it leads to so you should be able to pull on it.

I see what you mean. But I guess that phrase, "Pull in the direction of the gate", is what gets me - a Coinshot could obviously Push (a coin out of his hand) in any direction he chose, but can you just "Pull" in a direction without focusing on a specific point or object to Pull on? I say no, that's not how Ironpulling was described to us originally in the first book, and we've never seen an allomantic POV that would say otherwise.

If a Lurcher knew of a metal gate they'd just passed by like ten feet behind them, I think it'd make sense that they could go "Pull ten feet behind me in that direction on that gate that was there", as long as their sense of distance was reasonably accurate: a kind of allomantic extension of proprioception and our normal mental ability to spatially project objects in 3D relative to ourselves. But I think they'd have to have made special note of it as they passed, like thinking about using it as an anchor - I don't think a Lurcher could "flail" (not "flare", heh) their Ironpull in desperation at "something, anything big and metal! Wasn't there, like, a gate or something?!" behind them that they weren't sure of being there, and if their sense of distance were off (or if the object were moved), they'd draw a blank.

Anyway, I'll start a separate thread later in the Mistborn forum about this. What was meant to be a side comment on the idea of being a Lurcher in a big modern city in a thread about being a Twinborn Iron Compounder has segued into a question of exactly how Ironpulling works, which is very interesting on its own, but is kind of a hijack here.

Edited by robardin
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During one of the first meetings, after Kelsier has a private conversation with Marsh, he burns iron/steel, and can "see" the lines pointing at metal on her person, even though there is a wall between them and he didn't know she had metal on her. Throw in the constant references to vin pushing and pulling on things behind her, and especially the abilities of the inquisitors. It is pretty clear that iron/steel burning allows direct sensing of the lines to all metals in range, not just through eyesight.

As for being described as "blue", its probably a visualization thing for the reader. But it still makes sense. Any time I try toimage something something in my head, a layout for instance, my brain creates the lines in with some color, in order to create distinction. I couldn't even say what color it is, just that it is different from the black background. That's just how brain visualization functions works. Or at least mine anyways.

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Here's a specific quote in the book where Kelsier Pulls on something behind him without looking at it.

Quote

Kelsier heard the ingot hit the ground behind him, and he reached up—burning pewter—and caught the hazekiller’s cane mid-swing.

The hazekiller grunted, struggling against Kelsier’s enhanced strength. Kelsier didn’t bother trying to pull the weapon free; instead he Pulled sharply on the ingot behind him, bringing it toward his own back at a deadly speed. He twisted at the last moment, using his momentum to spin the hazekiller around—right into the ingot’s path.

The man dropped.

Also, when Vin didn't even know what the lines did, and definitely didn't see the piece of metal she was Pulling on:

Quote

Curious, Vin tested the lines with her mind, trying to discover their secret. She focused on a particularly small and innocent-looking one, and found that she could feel it individually if she concentrated. She almost felt like she could touch it. She reached out with her mind and gave it a slight tug.

The line shook, and something immediately flew out of the darkness toward her. Vin yelped, trying to jump away, but the object—a rusty nail—shot directly toward her.

 

Edited by RShara
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In the case of Kelsier and the ingot, he may not have been looking at it, but he knew where it was from having seen it earlier. I conceded that an Allomancer doesn't have to maintain a constant Pull on an object to use it from behind them, however I do think the Allomancer has to know more or less exactly where it is behind them to Pull on it, using the analogy of someone being able to put something on a table, turn around 180 degrees, close one's eyes, and still be able to grab it based on spatial sense and object permanence.

That's different from being able to arbitrarily reach back and Pull on something as if they could be "sensed" initially with A-iron, in such a way as to know their relative location and size (can you Pull as an anchor, or will it fly towards you?).

And in Vin's case, that scene is one of reasons I think of it this way. She's testing the blue lines with a mental Pull (that's what "tested the lines with her mind" means, as she then "gave it a slight tug"), and it's an object in front of her, not behind her. It flew at her face, not her back, as I read it (though it's not explicitly described either way).

And just one paragraph earlier, the ironsight lines were described as follows:

Quote

The lines moved with her. One end of each thread stayed stuck to her chest [her CoG], while the other end remained attached to a given place along the street. New lines appeared as she walked, and old ones faded, disappearing behind.

So the lines appear in front of her, and disappear behind her when out of her line of sight. And the Pull is described as mentally "tugging" on one of those lines. Ergo, if you can't see a line, you can't Pull on it, with an exception for an object you just saw a line to not long ago, and can assume is still where it is relative to you when you saw it (especially if you placed it there in the first place with Allomancy, like Vin's Cloud of Horseshoes Highway trick).

While I do think it's clear an Allomancer can Pull (or Push) on a metal object based on knowing where and what it is, I don't think that means there's a "feel behind me to know what's there" ability, and that a moving object would not be usable that way (it'd have to be big and stationary for the "object permanence plus spatial perception" mental thing to work).

Edited by robardin
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Another reason I think that is that Marsh and other Inquisitors are described as seeing with Steelsight (or Ironsight, I guess), and yet they still turn their heads to see things, and can get snuck up on from behind (as when Ham clobbers Marsh to save Sazed as he went to the Well of Ascension). If they could just "Steelsense" in all directions, that would be something of an affectation, wouldn't it?

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