Iron Twinborn Compounder Flight

[atiummisting17]

After re-reading Shadows of Self, I got to the rope hook part of Wax trying to find Bleeder and got to thinking, besides the usual use of compounding to make near unlimited amounts of weight, couldn't an Iron twinborn compounder shoot a bullet and then ironpull at the bullet in flight with their weight as low as possible for super fast travel? I know there's a maximum limit to storing weight, but Wax always implies he can go fully weightless in the books, though it might be a hyperbole.

[Yata]

5 minutes ago, atiummisting17 said:

After re-reading Shadows of Self, I got to the rope hook part of Wax trying to find Bleeder and got to thinking, besides the usual use of compounding to make near unlimited amounts of weight, couldn't an Iron twinborn compounder shoot a bullet and then ironpull at the bullet in flight with their weight as low as possible for super fast travel? I know there's a maximum limit to storing weight, but Wax always implies he can go fully weightless in the books, though it might be a hyperbole.

Iron twinborn will probably fly in some way (probably in a Thor-like way) but your method will not work. An Iron Ferring could store 100% of his weight but also if the Ferring goes weightless, his gear still weight...So his gun, cloth and metalmind still make him too weight to fly following a bullet

[atiummisting17]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Iron twinborn will probably fly in some way (probably in a Thor-like way) but your method will not work. An Iron Ferring could store 100% of his weight but also if the Ferring goes weightless, his gear still weight...So his gun, cloth and metalmind still make him too weight to fly following a bullet

The obvious answer is then to use a light as possible gun and heavy as possible ammo while flying au naturel.

[Yata]

6 minutes ago, atiummisting17 said:

The obvious answer is then to use a light as possible gun and heavy as possible ammo while flying au naturel.

You still need to carry with yourself a decent amount of pure iron to use as metalmind....I am not a balistic expert but I assume carrying some kilos of weight for a long distance is something beyond the bullet's possibility

[King Cole]

You could be spiderman though

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, King Cole said:

You could be spiderman though

This. I want to see this!!!

 

[Yata]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This. I want to see this!!!

 

Yeah we need only for Elendel's buildind to start grow taller and some Lurcher will surelly try this

[Shqueeves]

I'm pretty sure that two iron compounders, working together, could fly

[King Cole]

8 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yeah we need only for Elendel's buildind to start grow taller and some Lurcher will surelly try this

All you need is a lot of practice

[+Trellium]

8 hours ago, Shqueeves said:

I'm pretty sure that two iron compounders, working together, could fly

That's awesome, and it would definitely work. Just alternate who is storing weight and who is tapping, with the storer lurching upwards at and past/above the tapper. Then at the storer's vertical appex, they swap roles. 

[Curious Kid Dan]

On 10/16/2017 at 11:24 AM, atiummisting17 said:

The obvious answer is then to use a light as possible gun and heavy as possible ammo while flying au naturel.

Maybe a shot gun or a large caliber rifle to get a good initial speed, which you drop as you fire, then as you said, best possible ratio between gun lightless and bullet weight? However the coordination maybe be slightly difficult... 

[kenod]

So how would this work with conservation of momentum? Because at the moment of firing you would need to make yourself as heavy as possible, to counteract the recoil of the gun, but this would also mean that you lose almost all of your speed. If you go back to light again, this would give you your speed back, but wouldn't the small change in momentum from the recoil suddenly come back as well? That's at least the idea I get from it. And if it works that way, you can't fly, because the kinetic energy of the bullet would be the exact opposite of the kinetic energy from the recoil, so if you pull on it, the maximum amount of speed you could get from it is equal to the amount of speed you lost from the recoil.

[Kaj]

One thought would be to use a canon to start. And even if you didn't swing in the air like spiderman, you could have a sort of gliding jump using lampposts to launch into the air and then use other objects to travel the direction you want to go. On your way back down, you adjust your weight and land running. At the next lamppost, you repeat the process.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Kaj said:

One thought would be to use a canon to start. And even if you didn't swing in the air like spiderman, you could have a sort of gliding jump using lampposts to launch into the air and then use other objects to travel the direction you want to go. On your way back down, you adjust your weight and land running. At the next lamppost, you repeat the process.

Working as I do in midtown Manhattan, I have given thought - far more than I ought to have - to the question of What Would It Be Like To Be A Lurcher In The City (because being a Coinshot would be obviously awesome and much easier and more natural to use to fly around).

And this problem is the one I keep coming back to: how would you land? You'd have to Pull from above and behind you - which means, Pulling on something you can't see, at least not with your eyes. You'd look pretty funny flipping yourself around at or near the apex of your flight arcs to look up and backwards to Pull yourself to slow down. That, or try some kind of technique to maintain a very light ironline to your initial anchor the whole time, such that you could still "feel" it above and behind you as you came down, if Ironpulling worked that way. And you'd have to be very fine with the control on it, or you'd land too short of where you wanted to go. (Though of course you could probably just Pull on something ahead of you to adjust.)

Now, you're positing a Twinborn who's an Iron Compounder, so they could reduce their weight to help slow down, and would have an easier time of it than an ordinary Lurcher In The City. But to me, a Double-Iron Twinborn in the city would do much better off simply skitching a ride on moving land vehicles. And if you were about to miss a bus or a train, you could tap your infinite ironmind for weight while flaring a Pull and literally catch it.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by robardin

[Kaj]

Quote

But to me, a Double-Iron Twinborn in the city would do much better off simply skitching a ride on moving land vehicles. And if you were about to miss a bus or a train, you could tap your infinite ironmind for weight while flaring a Pull and literally catch it.

I don't see what would be unnatural to be a Lurcher. The difference is in your style really. If you were in a big city, everyone is right. You could basically swing like Spiderman. Correct me if ironpulling works differently than I am thinking, but I would pull on many different things at once, distributing my weight as to not break my anchors, and adjust what and how hard I am pulling in order to control my direction.

One thing to keep in mind is that an Iron Compounder could pull with their allomantic strength, dump all of their weight into their ironmind, and balance their metalminds. In doing so they can effectively launch several times as high as a normal Lurcher. I don't understand the exact nuances, but I think they would be able to jump the height of a city wall using my lampost method.

Currently, I am writing a story about an Iron Compounder, a Bendalloy/Iron Twinborn, and an Steel/Iron Twinborn, and an Electrum Compunder. The Iron Compounder and the Steel/Iron Twinborn work together all the time to basically do what Mistborn do.

Edit: Here is that one:

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Kaj
Added a link.

[+robardin]

4 hours ago, Kaj said:

I don't see what would be unnatural to be a Lurcher. The difference is in your style really. If you were in a big city, everyone is right. You could basically swing like Spiderman. Correct me if ironpulling works differently than I am thinking, but I would pull on many different things at once, distributing my weight as to not break my anchors, and adjust what and how hard I am pulling in order to control my direction.

But Ironpulling is still based on the "blue line" from your COG to an object, right? Which in turn is described as something the Allomancer sees with their eyes, or eye spikes for an Inquisitor; you can't feel behind you to find anchors, at least that hasn't been shown in any POV of a Lurcher or Mistborn.

With Steelpushing you can imagine it like having variable length tripod or N-pod legs supporting you as necessary, with different degrees of strength in each "leg", that radiate out in front of you. Or in the case of pushing a coin down to slow your fall, you just Push until it hits bottom, and there's your leverage point, sight unseen. 

Ironpulling around would be not like using ropes or grappling hooks, so much as telescopic "suction cups" with variable strength retraction.

So to "swing like Spider-Man" you'd have to maintain a smooth Pull, you couldn't release a Pull and then Pull again on the same anchor once it was behind you without turning around to look at it.   And if you pulled "backwards" too hard, which would be easy to do without a visual cue as to how far you'd gone from the anchor and at what angle, you would fall short of your mark - and if you had been trying to land on a roof ledge, that could be really bad.

Yes, you could Pull forward on another anchor ahead or above you, but that would speed you up. Hence my thought that slowing down and landing right would be difficult to master.

Not impossible to do, but to get to the point of having a really good feel for it would take a lot of mistakes first... Possibly deadly ones.

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by robardin

[+robardin]

I think if a Lurcher always stayed below a line of metal,  he or she could shuttle around very well - just not fly, as in with open air above.

A Lurcher in the subway tubes, for example. Or if there were trolley lines around 20 feet up, the Lurcher could be a human trolley as long as he stayed below 20 feet.

Arguably, a steel cage match is like the absolute most advantageous scenario for a Lurcher!

Edited May 22, 2018 by robardin

[Gisaku75]

I think the best way to fly for an Iron Compounder is to use a mechanism similar to a helicopter's blades. Lighten yourself and make quick shots on a series of gears connected to a propeller.

[Shqueeves]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

But Ironpulling is still based on the "blue line" from your COG to an object, right? Which in turn is described as something the Allomancer sees with their eyes, or eye spikes for an Inquisitor; you can't feel behind you to find anchors, at least that hasn't been shown in any POV of a Lurcher or Mistborn.

With Steelpushing you can imagine it like having variable length tripod or N-pod legs supporting you as necessary, with different degrees of strength in each "leg", that radiate out in front of you. Or in the case of pushing a coin down to slow your fall, you just Push until it hits bottom, and there's your leverage point, sight unseen. 

Ironpulling around would be not like using ropes or grappling hooks, so much as telescopic "suction cups" with variable strength retraction.

So to "swing like Spider-Man" you'd have to maintain a smooth Pull, you couldn't release a Pull and then Pull again on the same anchor once it was behind you without turning around to look at it.   And if you pulled "backwards" too hard, which would be easy to do without a visual cue as to how far you'd gone from the anchor and at what angle, you would fall short of your mark - and if you had been trying to land on a roof ledge, that could be really bad.

Yes, you could Pull forward on another anchor ahead or above you, but that would speed you up. Hence my thought that slowing down and landing right would be difficult to master.

Not impossible to do, but to get to the point of having a really good feel for it would take a lot of mistakes first... Possibly deadly ones.

You can pull and push behind you. Vin used it to brace herself several times

[+robardin]

45 minutes ago, Shqueeves said:

You can pull and push behind you. Vin used it to brace herself several times

Yes, but after knowing where to anchor the Pull and then maintaining it. At least that's how I imagined it. Like affixing a tow line to a ring in the wall. Once established you can turn around, but it'd be much, much harder to reach behind you to clip the line to begin with.

I don't think the iron/steel sight lines are like ESP where you "just know" where the metals are around you, they are lines you need to follow visually to their source. Kelsier could "see" people hiding behind (thin wooden) walls who were wearing belt buckles, but he had to be looking in that direction to do so, right?

Edited May 22, 2018 by robardin

[Scion of the Mists]

11 hours ago, robardin said:

But Ironpulling is still based on the "blue line" from your COG to an object, right? Which in turn is described as something the Allomancer sees with their eyes

Wax is able to push in every direction at once.  

[+robardin]

9 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Wax is able to push in every direction at once.  

Yes, I know. I'm talking about Pulling, not Pushing. And I think Wax's "bubble" is something unique to him and not Coinshots in general, right? At least, Kelsier (the master of Pulling and Pushing combinations) didn't exhibit it.

You don't have to see "the end" of where you're Pushing, just the coin you're Pushing on. You can Push on a piece of metal until it hits something, and then it starts pushing back with resistance (as Suit did in dropping a coin behind/below him as he and Wax fell together, to slow down, which required the coin hitting the ground long enough before they did for the resistance to work).

But you'd always have to see "the end" of where you're Pulling on to start Pulling on it in the first place. That's my point, is that using Pulling as a way to fly in the city isn't practical: that effectively "slingshotting" like Spider-Man with A-iron would require staying below a line of metal that you could use to Pull yourself up with (if you went above it, you'd have a lot less control).

Also that Pulling on stuff behind you to slow down would require a constant Pull (you started Pulling on it lightly before you went past it, then kept Pulling but harder after you were past it), a kind of fine control I think would require practice to do right.

In short, if you want to fly in the city, including going above rooftops and landing on them like Spider-Man does, that's the realm of a Coinshot - for a Lurcher to do the same seems to me to require a lot of practice that would be pretty deadly. However, put the Lurcher indoors or underground, where there's metal in all directions, and now he's the master of his domain.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by robardin

[Scion of the Mists]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, I know. I'm talking about Pulling, not Pushing. And I think Wax's "bubble" is something unique to him and not Coinshots in general, right? At least, Kelsier (the master of Pulling and Pushing combinations) didn't exhibit it.

You don't have to see "the end" of where you're Pushing, just the coin you're Pushing on. You can Push on a piece of metal until it hits something, and then it starts pushing back with resistance (as Suit did in dropping a coin behind/below him as he and Wax fell together, to slow down, which required the coin hitting the ground long enough before they did for the resistance to work).

But you'd always have to see "the end" of where you're Pulling on to start Pulling on it in the first place. That's my point, is that using Pulling as a way to fly in the city isn't practical: that effectively "slingshotting" like Spider-Man with A-iron would require staying below a line of metal that you could use to Pull yourself up with (if you went above it, you'd have a lot less control).

Also that Pulling on stuff behind you to slow down would require a constant Pull (you started Pulling on it lightly before you went past it, then kept Pulling but harder after you were past it), a kind of fine control I think would require practice to do right.

In short, if you want to fly in the city, including going above rooftops and landing on them like Spider-Man does, that's the realm of a Coinshot - for a Lurcher to do the same seems to me to require a lot of practice that would be pretty deadly. However, put the Lurcher indoors or underground, where there's metal in all directions, and now he's the master of his domain.

Interesting.  I've always assumed that pushing and pulling worked in virtually the same way.  It doesn't make sense to me to require line of sight to pull on an object, but not push on it.  Or do you mean that you have to "see" an object to begin pushing on it, and then subsequently don't have to view it anymore.  This seems like a strange assumption to make - I don't remember them every talking about it in the books.  

[+robardin]

Let me describe it this way: if I were a Lurcher, I couldn't just sit here in my office chair and "feel out" to discover and then Pull something to me that's on a shelf behind me and have it hit me in the back, even if I knew the shelf had lots of metal stuff. I'd have to turn and look at the shelf to see the blue lines pointing to stuff, and then pull on one of them. Or, look at the stuff on the shelf, pick a particular item, retain the ironline with a very light Pull, then I could walk around the room at will with that line still in place, and Pull it as necessary. But if I let go of that ironline, I'd have to look at it again to re-estabish it.

As for a Lurcher who could do an "iron bubble" analagous to Wax's steel bubble, it still wouldn't allow him to pull on a specific, large piece of metal that outweighed him, to use to slow down or stop him from going in the opposite direction. It'd be a general Pulling of metal towards him, somehow excluding specific items on or near his person.

 

[Kaj]

12 hours ago, robardin said:

Not impossible to do, but to get to the point of having a really good feel for it would take a lot of mistakes first... Possibly deadly ones.

 

 

That is definitely true.

11 hours ago, robardin said:

I think if a Lurcher always stayed below a line of metal,  he or she could shuttle around very well - just not fly, as in with open air above.

A Lurcher in the subway tubes, for example. Or if there were trolley lines around 20 feet up, the Lurcher could be a human trolley as long as he stayed below 20 feet.

Arguably, a steel cage match is like the absolute most advantageous scenario for a Lurcher!

So if there were a city of skyscrapers with skybridges connecting them, they would be golden, right? I love the cage match idea.

31 minutes ago, robardin said:

I don't think the iron/steel sight lines are like ESP where you "just know" where the metals are around you, they are lines you need to follow visually to their source. Kelsier could "see" people hiding behind (thin wooden) walls who were wearing belt buckles, but he had to be looking in that direction to do so, right?

 

I think we should ask Brandon on this one. To me, I always thought if you tried hard enough, you could sense nearby sources of metal and their location relative to you. There is no evidence for this and you're probably right, but it might be a cool savant ability.

8 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, I know. I'm talking about Pulling, not Pushing. And I think Wax's "bubble" is something unique to him and not Coinshots in general, right? At least, Kelsier (the master of Pulling and Pushing combinations) didn't exhibit it.

You don't have to see "the end" of where you're Pushing, just the coin you're Pushing on. You can Push on a piece of metal until it hits something, and then it starts pushing back with resistance (as Suit did in dropping a coin behind/below him as he and Wax fell together, to slow down, which required the coin hitting the ground long enough before they did for the resistance to work).

But you'd always have to see "the end" of where you're Pulling on to start Pulling on it in the first place. That's my point, is that using Pulling as a way to fly in the city isn't practical: that effectively "slingshotting" like Spider-Man with A-iron would require staying below a line of metal that you could use to Pull yourself up with (if you went above it, you'd have a lot less control).

Also that Pulling on stuff behind you to slow down would require a constant Pull (you started Pulling on it lightly before you went past it, then kept Pulling but harder after you were past it), a kind of fine control I think would require practice to do right.

In short, if you want to fly in the city, including going above rooftops and landing on them like Spider-Man does, that's the realm of a Coinshot - for a Lurcher to do the same seems to me to require a lot of practice that would be pretty deadly. However, put the Lurcher indoors or underground, where there's metal in all directions, and now he's the master of his domain.

 

 

Back to the savant reference. It's a possibility. Otherwise, you're right it would be a ton of extra effort, but if you didn't really have a choice of what misting you were would you put in the effort? I would.