Toaster Retribution

Hoid will become the new Adonalsium

43 posts in this topic

I´ll start this off with a disclaimer: I know there has been a lot of Hoid theories. What I am suggesting will probably be similar to what others have done. It might not even contain anything new at all. But I hope that you guys finds something worthwhile in here. So, here goes, my Hoid theory. The basic idea is as the title suggests. Hoid wants to reforge Adonalsium (which I know isn´t anything new) and he plans to be the Vessel of Adonalsium himself. 

Hoids Goal in Life

We know that Hoid is travelling around the Cosmere. His complete agenda is unknown, but he seems to be gathering magic systems. He stole the Lerasium bead from the Well, and he has dropped a hint about having breaths. Through this, I draw the conclusion that Hoid is interested in gathering different magic systems for himself. Why would he want to do that, except for the fact that it is fun?

Well, my theory is that Hoid hopes to be able to reforge Adonalsium, and that he plans to have himself as its vessel. He wishes to gather magic from the sixteen Shards in order to have Connection to all of them, which would make it easier for him to take them all up. As support, I have this WoB:

Quote

TAVEREN

If someone goes to every planet and get Invested from every shard, if he was Invested enough would he become a new Shard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That’s an excellent question that I’m not going to answer.

TAVEREN

I guess you will not answer if anyone is trying to do that

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yup, I am not going to answer. Sorry. That's too deeply related to things that are happening in the cosmere and I don’t want to dig into for a little while yet.

I realize that the question is wether an entirely new Shard would be created, but Sandersons answer is that it is "related" to stuff that is happening. We don´t have anyone we know of with the knowledge, power or amount of magic, nor a sensible motive. Not anyone... except Hoid. Furthermore, Hoid hints at this goal himself, when speaking to Dalinar.

Quote

Nonsense. Balderdash. Figgldygrak. Isn't it odd that gibberish words are often the sounds of other words, cut up and dismembered, then stitched into something like them—yet wholly unlike them at the same time?

"I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian. If you do put a man together like that, Dalinar, be sure to name him Gibberish, after me. Or perhaps Gibletish.

He says this right after mentioning Adonalsium to Dalinar. I think that the gibberish words he speaks of are the Shards. They are parts of Adonalsium, cut up and dismembered, and now something similar to Adonalsium, but yet they are different (there are sixteen of them and they are supposedly a lot weaker than Adonalsium was).

Then Hoid speaks about pulling a man apart and putting him back together. I think that the "put together" part is where Hoid hints at his goal. He wishes to put together a new Adonalsium, a better one probably. 

I also think that this theory is supported by his hatred towards Odium, and willingness to stop him. Odium wants to kill all the Shards, and splinter them, in order to be the most powerful thing in the Cosmere. If the Shards are splintered, Hoid will need to reforge them, which will be hard, and take time. He refers to the situation on Sel, with the splinters of Devotion and Dominion, as a mess. As long as Odium is alive, Hoids plans will be threatened. 

Why would Hoid want to do this?

But what is Hoids motive then? Why is he doing this? Well, first I thought that he disagreed with the sixteen who shattered Adonalsium, but then I decided against that. I think Hoid encouraged the Shattering. Here is a part of the Letter, written by Frost (supposedly) to Hoid concerning Rayse.

Quote

He is what we made him to be, old friend

Of course, this could mean many things. But I think Frost talks about Rayse being the vessel of Odium, and that he considers that his own and Hoids fault. I agree. Hoid encouraged the Shattering, and encouraged Rayse to go after Adonalsium. He could have taken a Shard for himself, too:

Quote

THE ONLY JOE

Was Hoid offered one of the Shards we know about.

BRANDON SANDERSON

You know, I can't remember which Shard I've shown you, Wait, no I haven't shown you that one.

But he didn´t take a Shard, probably because he didn´t want to be consumed by an intent. This is where we reach the most speculation-heavy part: Hoid wanted a new Adonalsium all along. We know that the sixteen felt a dire need to shatter Adonalsium, so things can´t really have been awesome on Yolen before the Shattering. I think that Hoid found Adonalsium a bad ruler/god/whatever. But at the same time, he feels that there is a need for someone to rule the Cosmere. And he thinks that he himself will do the best job. Hoid manipulated the Vessels to shatter Adonalsium in order to be able to reforge it, and rule the Cosmere, and becoming a great king/god, which would benefit everyone.

 

Okay. Thats it, basically. What do you guys think? Have you seen all this before? Do you agree/disagree? I´d love to hear thoughts, or see this be ripped apart. Either way, thanks for reading.

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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I have seen this theory pop up several times in the year or two that I've been on the shard. Never have I seen it put forth so well and with so many WoBs. That being said, I don't really think this is Hoid's goal. It seems too simple and/or obvious.

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9 hours ago, taveren said:

hey thats my question :)

It's a very interesting WoB, good work! :D

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Gibletish = 9 letters.  Gibberish = 9 letters.  Unique letters used: G, I, B, L, E, T, S, H, R = 9 letters.  Odium's shard number = 9.  Hoid is Rayse confirmed. :) 

 

 

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What if Hoid becomes the new Adonalsium...but by accident?

It seems Hoid is running around collecting various forms of Investiture from the various shards.  Maybe he's doing this as a preservation (no pun intended) effort against whatever destroyed Yolen.  In other words, he sees no way of halting some currently non-canon threat, and is going around collecting 16 forms of Investiture as a way to start over whenever that chance presents itself.

Or maybe he thinks only by using the power of all 16 shards against this threat can it be defeated.

Either way, he could in theory 'accidentally' end up in the role of new Adonalsium by the conclusion of the Cosmere's story.

I tend to agree that (to us Sharders anyway) the idea of wanting to become a new Adonalsium is too obvious, so this is just a way for that to happen but from a different path.

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This is more or less what I've come to believe myself (so I guess I espouse this theory? Or, uh, what is it called here?). The only thing that I'm hesitant about is why Hoid would orchestrate the shattering of Adonalsium to begin with. I don't think he did it out of malice or a lust for power. Perhaps vengeance at most, or to save something else. Perhaps Adonalsium had to be attacked to be saved, or something like it. One thing that bothers me is how would they know what would happen to Adonalsium once they shattered him? How could Hoid have foreseen that Adonalsium would split and be re-forgeable?

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On 10/21/2017 at 3:52 PM, Penumbra said:

One thing that bothers me is how would they know what would happen to Adonalsium once they shattered him?

Have this and speculate.

Quote

askthepaperclip

If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents?

Brandon Sanderson

Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.

askthepaperclip

Was there a force determining which way it shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes!

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A new shard theory seems entertaining. There is a possibility (very unlikely, given what we have now) that Hoid is already in possession of a Shard, but if he was, he would probably be much more powerful. My theory is that if Hoid created/had a shard, it would be Wit. 

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This is my kind of Hoid theory! I don't know if you've seen it, but there's a Wob that I think gives some more weight to your theory. Sidebar: I was excited/kind of annoyed ;) when I first read it because it was almost word for word what I was going to ask him at the Chicago signing.

 
Quote

 

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)
#1 Share
 
Play/Pause
Questioner

So, Hoid was there during the Shattering of Adonalsium. Odium is going around, like, destroying other Shards. We know that Hoid is collecting and has pieces of some of the other Shards.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Since Hoid was there at the original Shattering of Adonalsium. Is there an echo image of the original Adonalsium in Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, that's a RAFO. Here's your card. But it is a valid theory.

Questioner

I have a two-parter on that.

Brandon Sanderson

You can ask me the next part, but it is a RAFO.

Questioner

Is his end goal trying to join as many pieces of Adonalsium together to *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Um, that, I will give a "that's a very good guess." And that is what the books seem to indicate is happening.

 

Instead of echo, I was going to say a Remainder of some sort after the Division(Shattering) of Adonalsium. Something that doesn't give him the power of a Shard, but something else that can maybe bind one back together. Say he gets a piece of all 16 Shards and those, along with whatever of Adonalsium is imprinted on him, perhaps he could form an Adonalsium Shard, but not the whole Adonalsium. Like the appoximate power of a Shard, but guided by the Whole, not just 1 Intent. Mini-Adonalsium, as it were. If he has something of Adonalsium imprinted on him, it could help explain(I guess?) his next to impossible to kill-ness.

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In OB, Hoid said he vowed to always be there when he is needed. I think this vow is what kept him from taking up a shard. And this vow sounds very much like a promise you will make to someone dying.

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Hoid could be someone like Nevyn from the Deverry series.

Aka his pledge to never rest until he makes things right again. 

So Hoid can (almost) never dies until he completes his mission.

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On 11/28/2017 at 11:21 AM, TheDarkLordOokla said:

A new shard theory seems entertaining. There is a possibility (very unlikely, given what we have now) that Hoid is already in possession of a Shard, but if he was, he would probably be much more powerful. My theory is that if Hoid created/had a shard, it would be Wit. 

The thing is, he may possess or be 'hiding' a shard but not wanting to be it's vessel so as to maintain his own mental autonomy, or keep it safe from Odium, or perhaps be attuning himself to each of the powers of the shattered (and some unshattered) shards so that he may call on these later to face Odium, or for his own ascension.  Many options here.  Him having access to a shard, even perhaps a 17th shard...may be why the 17th shard was chasing him.  Definitely some interesting ideas here, many of which I'm more likely to believe than not.

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Great theory and as Brandon put it himself in one of the WoB above, this seems to be implied in the books. However...

I can't read it like that. Every time I read an Hoid/Wit section in any Cosmere book I get this distinct feeling that becoming the vessel of Adonalsium is not is goal. Is he trying to reforge it? Rebuild a major shard after realizing the mess that powerful beings drivien by pure intents are doing to the Cosmere? Yes, that feels correct to me. But I think Hoid doesn't want to hold the power, doesn't want the responsibility and ultimately, I not even sure someone will need to.

We know that large collections of Investiture can gain sapience. My best guess is that, after collecting investiture Connected with all the shards Hoid will reforged Adonalsium in a new being...

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On 12/9/2017 at 3:55 PM, NotBurtReynolds said:

Brandon Sanderson

Um, that, I will give a "that's a very good guess." And that is what the books seem to indicate is happening.

I think that this is too obvious to be the main storyline behind the Cosmere.  I think that Brandon's quote also points to it being a red herring.  

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I quite like the theory, and, given that Hoid has been traveling the Cosmere for so long, and doing exactly as you quoted, it is not an "out there" theory.

We do know that Hoid and Frost were there at the Shattering, and gave help of some sort to the sixteen, so that begs the question of why they helped. Perhaps Adon was a crappy king, as you stated, and Hoid simply wanted an end to tyranny, and then realized that he had sixteen tyrants to deal with.

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Quote

 

THE ONLY JOE

Was Hoid offered one of the Shards we know about.

BRANDON SANDERSON

You know, I can't remember which Shard I've shown you, Wait, no I haven't shown you that one.

 


Just a note on this, I'm like 97.3424452% sure there is a WOB that says Hoid was offered Endowment but declined.

Edit: I found this, but this is not the WOB I was thinking of...
   
Quote

 

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)
#35 Share
Play/Pause

Questioner
There’s a WoB on Theoryland that if Hoid was tempted by a Shard it’d be Endowment.  Why is that?

Brandon Sanderson

There’s a word on Theoryland that if he was tempted by a shard it’d be Endowment? Things in his past, that make sense. Will make sense once you know him more.

 

Edited by The Sovereign
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Spoiler

Oathbringer spoiler ahead (minor):

can I just mention that Hoid as Wit was clearly shown using sand mastery in oathbringer. Shallan sees him using colored powder for storytelling, mistakes it for lightweaving, sees him drink thirstily from a flask (as the power drains his total water supply), and describes his magic as more natural.

 

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10 minutes ago, TheHeadHancho said:
  Hide contents

Oathbringer spoiler ahead (minor):

can I just mention that Hoid as Wit was clearly shown using sand mastery in oathbringer. Shallan sees him using colored powder for storytelling, mistakes it for lightweaving, sees him drink thirstily from a flask (as the power drains his total water supply), and describes his magic as more natural.

 

Never thought about that, but good point. It could be Sand Mastery. In that case, he has access to one more magic system.

Also, welcome to the forums!

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18 hours ago, TheHeadHancho said:
  Hide contents

Oathbringer spoiler ahead (minor):

can I just mention that Hoid as Wit was clearly shown using sand mastery in oathbringer. Shallan sees him using colored powder for storytelling, mistakes it for lightweaving, sees him drink thirstily from a flask (as the power drains his total water supply), and describes his magic as more natural.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, (I don't have access to oath bringer, and I haven't read much of White Sand), but when hoid uses the dust, (Minor oathbringer spoilers)

Spoiler

It forms into the shapes of the items in the story.

That sounds different then what we've seen of sand mastery, where adding water to the sand produces energy, and you can only control that energy for a short time before it expands. Also sand being used for sand mastery is only seen to be white, and after its used, black. That powder that Hoid uses is colored, and it isn't reported to have turned color after he was done with it.

I think that he is using yolish light weaving as opposed to rosharin (?) light weaving or sand mastery.

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Hoid also pulled some interesting storytelling tricks during Warbreaker, using a few things that were not sand. I'm of the opinion that the simple answer(Yolish Lightweaving) is the right one.

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I wanted to start one of these discussion, but you beat me to the punch.

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2 hours ago, Thunderclast said:

I wanted to start one of these discussion, but you beat me to the punch.

If you have more WoBs/clues to add, feel free :-)

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I think the new short story “The Traveler” adds some more (circumstantial) evidence that this is indeed what Hoid is trying to do. 

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