Faceless Immortals: Parshendi?

[Julio]

I had this random idea while reading the theory about Wayne being a Kandra. 

We know very little about the Set's Faceless Immortals. They are presumed, by the characters on Scadrial, to be Kandra. This is presumably because the Scadrians know them to be shapeshifters, and the only shapeshifters they know about are Kandra.

However. These Faceless Immortals have red eyes. What other shapeshifting species do we know of that has red eyes? 

The Parshendi. That is, the Voidspren-bonded Parshendi. 

"But they all have marbled black/white and red skin!" Yes. They do, that we've seen so far. BUT. "Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men." The obvious assumption for that is that they'd look like Parshmen, but that makes no sense. They've got Dullform for that, which is definitely NOT a form of power, and Dullform would be extremely conspicuous anywhere that wasn't used to Parshmen. 

So. My final theory: the Faceless Immortals with red eyes are Parshendi in Smokeform.

If you've any evidence for or against it, please tell me.

[Fourth Of The Night]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooh. I really like the cut of your jib here. This sounds pretty great to me, especially because SA takes place before Era 2.

[CaptainRyan]

2 hours ago, Julio said:

If you've any evidence for or against it, please tell me.

One piece of evidence against this is that, presumably, a Parshendi would need to be bonded to a particular type of spren to maintain this form. Brandon has stated that it is very difficult for a bonded spren to leave the Rosharan system. 

Quote

QUESTION

So if I’m a Surgebinder and I have my own Cognitive entity with me, can I go off-world with that and [have] everything continue to work in exactly the same way? Because we’ve seen Cognitive entities that--

BRANDON SANDERSON

So...taking a Cognitive entity off-world is hard. So, Surgebinding, if you can find out how to make it happen, remember, the Investiture is keyed to Connection. This is why Kelsier is--Oh, sorry, spoilers! When a certain somebody [laughter] getting off Scadrial, because he basically was a spren by that point so…[laughter] So, yeah Surgebinding would work off planet, but you’d have to get the spren off first. It’s hard to do. Well, Cosmere-wide it’s not hard hard...You could learn how.

Quote

RURO272

So since [Shadesmar is] one big place, could spren travel to a different section that correlates with a different planet, such as the cognitive segment for Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They could do there, but they wouldn't usually...

RURO272

Is that because Honor's influence is only on Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(Brandon gave sort of a noncommittal half nod, but looked doubtful himself. Maybe best to interpret this last answer as a RAFO rather than reading into it too much.)

FOOTNOTE

Brandon didn't say a lot about this, and unfortunately I don't remember his exact wording, but it was clear that spren could technically go to different regions within Shadesmar that correlate to different worlds, but for some reason they don't or won't. My guess would be simply because only on Roshar to the ideas of men give them power, and if they deviate away too far they lose that connection that makes them exist. Just a thought tho.

So, it is entirely possible for a parshendi to get a spren off-planet but it would take some work.

[Weltall]

Suit's description makes it sound more like these 'Faceless Immortals' are possessing humans. He speculates that the one we saw was 'a begger stolen off the street'. This doesn't necessarily invalidate the idea that they're Smokeform listeners (pending further understanding of what exactly that entails) as shapeshifters could certainly pretend to be body-snatchers to prevent their catspaws from learning exactly how they work, but it does require some additional suppositions. But the Shadows of Self broadsheet does have a description of someone encountering what could be a worldhopping listener so it's an idea with merit. The source isn't entirely reliable but it's certainly the kind of foreshadowing that Brandon would pull on us.

Another alternative if these entities are something we've seen before is that they are (or are the origin for) the Svrakiss from Elantris. Those were believed to possess humans and could be a memory of something that Odium did in Sel's past when he was busy murdering Aona and Skai.

[Ethan_sedai]

There is a WoB somewhere that says that you can steal an from a spren with a hemalurgic spike, so could they have done this as a Kandra blessing by stealing something from a voidspren, and used that to make kandra voidbringers? not sure how well this would work. 

going to search for it now...

edit: here it is!

On 7/24/2017 at 8:00 AM, Extesian said:

Q: Can spren be pierced by hemalurgic spikes? Will it give some effect?
A: Yes. A spren can be pierced by invested metal…
Q: Could it be spiked?
A: Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.
Q: Could you steal from a spren?
A: Yes you could steal the investiture of a spren. Any investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.
Q: Because I thought you said hemalurgy needs moving blood.
A: It needs, uh, yeah…there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.
Q: The Cognitive Realm?
A: Yeah if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently.
Q: So you could spike in the cognitive realm?
A: Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any investiture into hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.
Q: We do not concern ourselves with common uses.
A: Yeah I know you don’t. But yeah hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you…you’ll see when we get around to it.

also, since it the spikes would be from a Voidspren, and not a human, I think it would be a new species. for its name, I propose Voidwraith

Edited October 16, 2017 by ethan_sedai

[theRoyalDingus]

For the "It would be super hard to take a spren off-planet," the parshendi wouldn't necessarily need to if Odium was there, right? And since Trell...

[Calderis]

25 minutes ago, Krypton Savant said:

For the "It would be super hard to take a spren off-planet," the parshendi wouldn't necessarily need to if Odium was there, right? And since Trell...

Yes they would. Spren are tied to the World they were created on by the power the Shard put in. 

If Trell were Odium on Scadrial, the Spren would still be tied to Roshar. We have never seen a native Splinter of Scadrial. We don't know how it would work, but it wouldn't manifest the same as on Roshar, and it probably wouldn't mesh correctly with the Rosharan based listener physiology. 

[Andy92]

My main point against this doesn't have much to do with the actual stories themselves. It's just that Brandon seems to use the whole worldhopping thing as something cool for cameos, but I don't see him using an entire worldhopping species as a major plot point for a separate book series. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

My main point against this doesn't have much to do with the actual stories themselves. It's just that Brandon seems to use the whole worldhopping thing as something cool for cameos, but I don't see him using an entire worldhopping species as a major plot point for a separate book series. 

Agreed. Though Mistborn is the place most likely to plant seeds of this, the Cosmere stories are supposed to remain self contained, where if someone has read this series, and only this series that's enough to understand. 

This is going to be broken completely in Era 4, but should still fit with the story as by that time, they will be a space faring world, and even if you haven't read the other stories, running into other planets and cultures will make sense. 

Until that point though, I doubt we'll get major plot points that rely wholely on other books. 

[theRoyalDingus]

Wait. Why didn't we just say that these weren't Kandra? That would also make sense. And yeah, I suppose that's right. Odium would manifest differently on Scadrial.

[Cephandrius Everstorm]

On 10/13/2017 at 8:40 AM, Julio said:

We know very little about the Set's Faceless Immortals. They are presumed, by the characters on Scadrial, to be Kandra. This is presumably because the Scadrians know them to be shapeshifters, and the only shapeshifters they know about are Kandra.

However. These Faceless Immortals have red eyes. What other shapeshifting species do we know of that has red eyes? 

The Parshendi. That is, the Voidspren-bonded Parshendi. 

"But they all have marbled black/white and red skin!" Yes. They do, that we've seen so far. BUT. "Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men." The obvious assumption for that is that they'd look like Parshmen, but that makes no sense. They've got Dullform for that, which is definitely NOT a form of power, and Dullform would be extremely conspicuous anywhere that wasn't used to Parshmen. 

So. My final theory: the Faceless Immortals with red eyes are Parshendi in Smokeform.

If you've any evidence for or against it, please tell me.

Okay, this is my take on things after listening to shardcast and peicing together my own thoughts. Lets look first at Lessie/Paalm from Shadows of Self. She is a Kandra who goes insane after releasing her bond from Harmony by removing a spike to be out of his control. She is then found with a hemalurgic spike that doesn't seem to be a metal of Scadrial, and cannot be sensed or pushed on by Wax (if I remember correctly).This spike is widely speculated to be another God metal, which I believe belongs to the shard who is in the guise of the god Trell. 

I also think that this spike that seems to influence her to "break free" from the influence of other and especially Harmony, sound a lot like the definition of autonomy "freedom from external control or influences" and "the right or condition of self government." 

Would it not make sense that this spike of a separate "god metal" would bring the intent of that god metal with it? And that the cause of the "madness" of lessie/palmm would be the  influence of this spike?  She was a Kandra who loyally served the Lord Ruler and Harmony for literally thousands of years with fervor before developing her idea of "being free of external control" which seems like such a drastic shift and message from what she has lived with her entire life up until this point. 

Now we don't know much about Autonomy yet, but I believe it is highly speculated (or possibly even confirmed) that the vessel of Autonomy is Bavadin. Bavadin is mentioned in "the letter" that is assumed to be written by Hoid and is lumped in with Rayse (Odium's vessel) and is indicated the Hoid/Cephandrius etc. has a grudge against both of these vessels/shardholders. Now this does not mean that Rayse and Bavadin are necessarily in alignment, but I can assume that if Rayse was " among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals" even before he took up the shard Odium, and that Hoid lumps the likes of him in with Bavadin in this quote, than we can infer Bavadin's character as probably being fairly nefarious as well, pre-ascension. 

With this in mind here is what Brandon has said in regards to Bavadin:

"This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her."

This is the main reason I believe that Trell, the god worshipped or acknowledged by Miles, the Vanishers, and also the Set, is actually Bavadin/Autonomy appearing as a different persona  or Avatar (if you haven't read oathbringer yet, you should read it as I think one of the letters in particular there shall strengthen this theory even more). 

I would also point people to the star chart provided in Arcanum unbounded front and end pages... look at that cluster of RED stars/planets on the top right of the chart where "The Scar" is labelled... this seems ominous and the closest planet to this swath of red is Scadrial... Now this could be indicative of Odium, as you have pointed out. The red eyes do seem suspicious, but in order for Odium to be encroaching on Scadrial he would have had to escape his prison on Roshar (where he has seemingly been stuck for a long time). This would mean that the events of the fight on Roshar in the Stormlight Archive would ultimately lead to Odium escaping his prison and being able to travel to scadrial during mistborn era 2. 

Now I admit this is possible, and I don't know the timeline so far, whether era 2 mistborn is happening before or after or concurrently with the current Stormlight Archive novels. But if era 2 mistborn and SA are happening at the same time, then we can probably say for sure that the menacing and invading force, the other God, that Sazed/Harmony sees and is protecting Scadrial against, cannot be Odium. 

So even if this red eyed messenger that blows Suit away with him so that he can "serve in another realm" is a parshendi or odium influenced individual, then we would have to say that he is not related to this other god that the set has been working with, but if so then why does this new "faceless immortal" talk to Suit about accelerating the timeline etc? unless he is also a part of this god threatening scadrial... the acceleration that has begun... 

All of this is still speculative obviously, but I believe that this faceless immortal with the red eyes is actually a servant of autonomy, who we know from the Arcanum Unbounded Essays, has engaged in "interference with other planets." 

I need to think on this more but hopefully my reasons are clear enough to follow for why I think Autonomy, and not Odium, is the master behind this faceless immortal, Trell, and the Set. 

I also do not believe that Odium and Autonomy are working together. For Bavadin/Autonomy to work with another shard seems contradictory to her intent. And for Rayse/Odium, who has been shattering every shard he has come into contact with thus far to suddenly align with another shard, especially one that could be such a threat to Rayse himself,  seems similarly out of character. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Cephandrius Everstorm

[Fezzik]

@Cephandrius Everstorm

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8340

Here ya go.

[Cephandrius Everstorm]

11 hours ago, Ookla the oathgate said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8340

Here ya go.

@Julio and @Ookla the oathgate If red signifies one shard corrupting or co-opting another shards power then my main theory now is that when Suit says that the Set has "faceless immortals" of their own, this simply means that the Set literally has faceless immortals, Kandra, of their own, but that these faceless immortals are corrupted or have been co-opted by Bavadin/Autonomy (or Rayse/Odium if mistbron era 2 takes place after SA and Odium was released from his prison on Roshar)

Edited November 30, 2017 by Cephandrius Everstorm

[Fezzik]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91-general-twitter-2015/#e809

@Cephandrius Everstorm

Have another.

[Cephandrius Everstorm]

39 minutes ago, Ookla the oathgate said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91-general-twitter-2015/#e809

@Cephandrius Everstorm

Have another.

Thank you, I was told this IRL but I did not know that the Wax and Wayne novels were set after first 5 of SA and before Back 5 SA... if the faceless immortal is Odium's then I really do fear for the ending of Stormlight Archive after book 5. Odium goes all "Empire Strikes Back" and likely released, (perhaps forcing the worldhoppers to get into the game a bit more and stop being so storming mysterious and non-confrontational.

 

[echaozh]

Hmm, could be human bodies possessed by Fused souls.

[Ethan_sedai]

On 12/7/2017 at 9:21 PM, echaozh said:

Hmm, could be human bodies possessed by Fused souls.

remember to put OB spoilers in spoiler tags.

[Tiak]

We have lots of WoB about red eyes.  The takeaway is that red signifies one shard coopting another shard's magic system and that, especially on Scadrial, it isn't necessarily connected to Odium.  My suspicion is that people with red eyes have been spiked (with a foreign god-metal) and are being controlled by another shard manipulating Ruin's magic.  I would speculate upon it being a yet-unseen shard, as I doubt Odium is going to be our only real villain going forward. 

Good villain shard candidates: Jealousy/Avarice, Indifference, Dispersion, Authority

[Weltall]

The Set follows 'Trell' and Brandon has said that for now, we can think of the unknown metal that Paalm was spiked with as 'Trellium'. Trellium is from a Shard that we know. Therefore, the mystery entity that appears at the end of Bands of Mourning (known to Suit and obviously affiliated with this Trell) is from a Shard we know as well. My money's on one of Bavadin's many personas.