theory The Rest of the Shards and Where to Find Them

[Asrael]

On 10/13/2017 at 7:08 AM, Generalbacon74 said:

Anguish: pain, suffering, torment

I think this is interesting! For me it suggests some sort of divine Sympathy, a trait I don't believe really falls under any shards we've seen but is almost a requirement if were basing our theories on a Judeo/Christian god.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Asrael said:

I think this is interesting! For me it suggests some sort of divine Sympathy, a trait I don't believe really falls under any shards we've seen but is almost a requirement if were basing our theories on a Judeo/Christian god.

And I think that's part of the problem. 

Yes, the word Adonalsium is based off of the Hebrew word Adonai. Brandon has not told us if Adonalsium is a Judeo/Christian God analogue though. 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1153#16

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QUESTION

Was the shattering of Adonalsium done, for the forces to attack the Anti-Adonalsium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You’re focusing too much on the idea of the anti-adonalsium. What was really asked is “is there a force that opposes Adonalsium” and it left me a lot of wiggle room. In other words, the people who killed it was a force, or any person who opposed Adonalsium you could say is a force. What they were trying to get was a “devil” but that assumes Adonalsium is a more Christian-style God, and I have not confirmed any of that.

 

[SilverTiger]

The thing is, (this is Catholic theology) God's nature is not entirely comprehendable. Like how God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person. We can't entirely understand it, understand him. And Enigma (Mystery, etc.) is also a part of human nature, which Adonalsium also seems to incorporate. People don't always make sense, and there are always things that confuse us. Confusion could be counted as part of Enigma, too.

[Toaster Retribution]

34 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

The thing is, (this is Catholic theology) God's nature is not entirely comprehendable. Like how God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person. We can't entirely understand it, understand him. And Enigma (Mystery, etc.) is also a part of human nature, which Adonalsium also seems to incorporate. People don't always make sense, and there are always things that confuse us. Confusion could be counted as part of Enigma, too.

In order to have a cooler name, and a cooler Shard, but still have the mystery parts, I suggest Trickery for a Shard. No, God isn't famous for trickery, but it could be a play on the mystery part, while getting a trickster Shard, which would be awesome. I can see that being the Survival Shard, actually.

The question is, how much will we bind ourselves to the Judeo/Christian God? For example, God doesn't hate much. He gets angry, yes, but not hatred. If Brandon didn't leave himself any wiggle room, he would have to name Odium Wrath or something. 

So, who's with me on Trickery?

 

[Metalrift]

51 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person

I'm sure they are not one person in Roman Catholic theology. They are one in essence, one God, yet three in person. This is, of course, impossible to fully comprehend. 

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The question is, how much will we bind ourselves to the Judeo/Christian God? For example, God doesn't hate much. He gets angry, yes, but not hatred

God is described at points in the bible as hating certain things, such as oppression. However, I do not think that it is necessarily best to restrict consideration of possible shards to attributes of the Judeo/Christian God. In any case, Mr Sanderson's beliefs differ significantly from mine, so what I see as attributes of God do not necessarily match his.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

God is described at points in the bible as hating certain things, such as oppression. However, I do not think that it is necessarily best to restrict consideration of possible shards to attributes of the Judeo/Christian God. In any case, Mr Sanderson's beliefs differ significantly from mine, so what I see as attributes of God do not necessarily match his.

Guess I'll need to read my Bible more :-D But hate isn't one of Gods primary attributes, in any case. He is more angry than hateful, I'd argue. 

[SilverTiger]

4 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

I'm sure they are not one person in Roman Catholic theology. They are one in essence, one God, yet three in person. This is, of course, impossible to fully comprehend.

Exactly. It is impossible to fully comprehend. If you try too hard, your brain explodes. It is an enigma, a mystery. Also, I suggest that we include "paradox" with the Enigma Shard.

[Asrael]

4 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

The thing is, (this is Catholic theology) God's nature is not entirely comprehendable. Like how God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person. We can't entirely understand it, understand him. And Enigma (Mystery, etc.) is also a part of human nature, which Adonalsium also seems to incorporate. People don't always make sense, and there are always things that confuse us. Confusion could be counted as part of Enigma, too.

Which ignores my point that Brandon is Mormon, and that's not how Mormons traditionally think about God. So I'm sure you're right from a Catholic perspective, but that's not Brandon's default perspective. Which is my point

[The Invested Beard]

I'm not sure all that matters as Brandon has stated previously that he's more in the Tolkien camp of non-analogous writing when it comes to theological perspectives and stories.

[Toaster Retribution]

14 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I'm not sure all that matters as Brandon has stated previously that he's more in the Tolkien camp of non-analogous writing when it comes to theological perspectives and stories.

Can someone tell a confused swede what analgous means in this context?

[The Invested Beard]

12 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Can someone tell a confused swede what analgous means in this context?

Basically there aren't any 1 to 1 analogies straight across from Earth theologies to Cosmere stuff. As in nothing in Cosmere directly represents something or someone specifically from our world. It's the difference between Tolkien's Middle Earth and C.S. Lewis' Narnia.

Edited October 16, 2017 by The Invested Beard

[SilverTiger]

44 minutes ago, Asrael said:

Which ignores my point that Brandon is Mormon, and that's not how Mormons traditionally think about God. So I'm sure you're right from a Catholic perspective, but that's not Brandon's default perspective. Which is my point

Yes, I am a Roman Catholic, but Brandon isn't sticking to an entirely Mormon point-of-view. The idea of God as having a certain amount of mystery to him is something a lot more general across religions. No one expects God is actually explain his actions, and all those Old Testament prophecies are certainly mysterious and confusing (very, very confusing). And can we please stop this argument on theology? It is getting a bit old and irrelevant to the thread's topic.

[Asrael]

15 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Yes, I am a Roman Catholic, but Brandon isn't sticking to an entirely Mormon point-of-view. The idea of God as having a certain amount of mystery to him is something a lot more general across religions. No one expects God is actually explain his actions, and all those Old Testament prophecies are certainly mysterious and confusing (very, very confusing). And can we please stop this argument on theology? It is getting a bit old and irrelevant to the thread's topic.

Ignores is a strong word--my apologies. I just suggested it's not a requirement for that reason. There are other traits (rightly included) which are much more generally accepted. That one in particular is distinctly uncharacteristic of the Mormon POV, so I think it's weaker than the other posited intents, or just "less essential". Like I said though--and I think Calderis hit this on the head--Brandon is quite capable of departing from his own perspective, but if he departs in any significant way, I suspect a larger departure then a smaller one.

Case in point: Unity is a very strong concept in Eastern religions (like the Oneness of the Iriali), so perhaps we need more consideration of distinctly non Judeo-Christian attributes? (and yes I know unity fits comfortably within a Trinitarian view)

[QuantumHarmonix]

You know I'm surprised that no one has brought up the Jewish concept of the Sefirot from the Kabbalah. Not that it's something that I'm terribly familiar with, it just seems like it has a strong comparison. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefirot

 

[Frostlander]

1 hour ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

You know I'm surprised that no one has brought up the Jewish concept of the Sefirot from the Kabbalah. Not that it's something that I'm terribly familiar with, it just seems like it has a strong comparison. 

I think it's safe to say you would not be wasting your time if you look into this further...

Quote

INTERVIEW: Jun 10th, 2014

Tor.com The Way of Kings Re-read Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

...What are my inspirations for the Alethi, for all of the different cultures? There's definitely some Korean in there. There's some Semitic cultures in there. The magic system table, the double eye, is based on the idea of the Sefer and the Tree of Life from the Jewish Kabbalah. That's where I can trace the original inspiration of that. I can trace the original inspiration of the safehand to Koreans not showing people the bottom of their feet because they felt that that is an insult—that's not something you do. I can trace the Alethi apparel to various different clothing influences. I'm hoping that a lot of where I get the cultures is based off the interplay between the setting, the histories, the idea of the highstorms, and the metaphor of the desolations. My influences come from all over the place.

4

 

[QuantumHarmonix]

1 minute ago, Frostlander said:

I think it's safe to say you would not be wasting your time if you look into this further...

 

Wow! I've never seen that WoB before. That is a really strong indicator. 

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/13/2017 at 1:35 AM, Rider of Storms said:

Retribution: Punishment, Justice, Vengeance

Odium: "Divine Hatred", Wrath, Envy

I don't think Wrath has ever been given to Odium by anyone other than random speculators on the forums. Also, Wrath is too similar to Retribution and Vengeance.

Quote

Retribution - punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act.

Vengeance - punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.

Wrath - 1) strong vengeful anger or indignation. 2) retributory punishment for an offense or a crime

On 4/21/2017 at 0:08 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Sure, Odium probably covers most of Wrath, but Divine Wrath is usually against those who "deserve it" in some way, at least in the various stories and myths that I remember. I'd actually put Wrath as an Honor/Odium pairing where Odium is the more dominant aspect, while Justice is the Odium/Honor pair where Honor is in charge.

I, and Calderis, continue to hold Wrath(and/or Retribution) as an Honor/Odium pairing.

I will say that I approve of you putting Vengeance and Justice together, as people often forget how similar they are. This reminds me of Nemesis actually, Greek Goddess of Revenge, Justice, and(depending on which legends you read) Balance(Adrestia was handmaiden of Nemesis in some stories, but since she was equally associated with justice and vengeance, some stories have mixed the two over the centuries). Hrmm... maybe there's something to that..

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On 10/15/2017 at 9:14 AM, Agent34 said:

That's because Odium is divine wrath removed from everything that gives in context, resulting in mindless omnidirectional hatred.

Odium is Divine Hatred removed from all it's context. I trust Frost on this one. And to foray into definitions again:

Quote

Anger - a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility.

Hatred - intense dislike or extreme aversion or hostility.

Wrath - strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire.

Odium - intense hatred or dislike

Given how Dislike(Hatred definition) and Displeasure(Anger Definition) are synonyms, Hatred and Wrath both appear to be strong/intense anger.
Hatred includes Hostility, which can be passive(ill will) or active(military actions are hostilities). Wrath can be passive(indignation) or active(retributory punishment).

The two terms seem to be a lot of the same, yet they are two distinct words. For the linguists among us, why is that? Why makes them different in human language?

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On 10/13/2017 at 1:35 AM, Rider of Storms said:

Chaos:

As I've said to Tobar14 and John203 before:

On 3/7/2017 at 1:25 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Biggest issue with these is Brandon's statement in regards to the ever-changing weather patterns on Roshar:

Quote

Well, if you consider the planet to be a closed system, then nothing about the natural processes are TRULY unpredictable.

So I don't think randomness will actually have precedence in the Cosmere. But that's my opinion, feel free to disagree

There was a little more discussion on it in the thread you linked in the OP, but something else to consider is that "letting the chips fall where they may" is essentially "Anti Future-Sight The Shard." It just doesn't mesh well with the rest of the Cosmere, at least to me.

---

As for the rest of your Shard suggestions:

• Charisma: It's not the name, but something related to the concept itself that feels off. And I can't pin down what.
• Enlightenment: I'd still prefer to call it Wisdom.
• Enigma: I don't really consider Mystery to be a Divine Attribute. The Lord Ruler was rather mysterious too.
  • Mystery is simply the shortage/absence of Understanding. God is mysterious because he didn't see fit to explain himself. Sazed can quite literally have a chat with spiked individuals if he so chooses. He has knowledge behind unraveling his mystery, and he doesn't provide it because he chooses not to. I don't see a quality like that being a Shardic Intent.
  • As for Paradox and that Alcatraz WoB, the world of Alcatraz isn't bound by rules the way the Cosmere is. You can make a case for Chaos, but not Paradox.
• Purity: I'm just as unsure as you are it seems. I'm not particularly fond of "holiness" being a Divine Attribute, but I don't know if I have the capacity to explain why.

As for Locations:

• You didn't really discuss the "where to find them" for Chaos, Charisma or Retribution.
• Wisdom being at Silverlight seems reasonable, but it also feels too obvious. I'll stay 50-50 on this one.
• I don't think Yolen's disappearance has to do with the Shards anymore, as surprising as that might sound. But as Weltall pointed out, Yolen is "hidden," rather than inaccessible. Mraize can get there, Hoid and Frost can exchange communications to/from there. Khriss cannot find Yolen, which is something quite different from Ambition Autonomy isolating Taldain. I wonder if it's like that for all of them.. say:
  • For the purposes of finding Yolen, you are blindfolded. But for the purposes of getting to Yolen, the planet is still there, even if you can't see it.
• Purity being on Purity is even worse than the Wisdom/Silverlight connection when it comes to being "too obvious."

Edited October 23, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Correction: Autonomy and Taldain.

[Yata]

14 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for the rest of your Shard suggestions:

• Charisma: It's not the name, but something related to the concept itself that feels off. And I can't pin down what.
• Enlightenment: I'd still prefer to call it Wisdom.
• Enigma: I don't really consider Mystery to be a Divine Attribute. The Lord Ruler was rather mysterious too.
  • Mystery is simply the shortage/absence of Understanding. God is mysterious because he didn't see fit to explain himself. Sazed can quite literally have a chat with spiked individuals if he so chooses. He has knowledge behind unraveling his mystery, and he doesn't provide it because he chooses not to. I don't see a quality like that being a Shardic Intent.
  • As for Paradox and that Alcatraz WoB, the world of Alcatraz isn't bound by rules the way the Cosmere is. You can make a case for Chaos, but not Paradox.
• Purity: I'm just as unsure as you are it seems. I'm not particularly fond of "holiness" being a Divine Attribute, but I don't know if I have the capacity to explain why.

I agree with this analysis.

- Probably Inspiration will be a better fitting name for Charisma, but honestly I don't like the concept too much either.

- As The One Who Connects I don't see the Mistery as an actual attribute but rather a lame excuse for the theology to have gaps in the doctrine (but this isn't a religious topic so this is a bit OT)

- Holiness too isn't real a divine attribute but rather a simply relationship to the divine. you call something "holy" because you associate that thing to the divine. But "holiness" hasn't any meaning for itself (maybe a good example will be what that today is called "sorcery" or "miracles"...They are the same stuff with different name from if the source was (presumibly) authorizated by your Supreme-figure-of-reference).

 

I am quite sure to have exposed those stuff in a messy way, sorry

[Toaster Retribution]

 @Calderis @The One Who ConnectsFirst off, when it comes to Retribution: I don't think that it is an issue that it could be a possible pairing of Honor and Odium. When discussing Ambition earlier today, I thought about Dominion, and it seems to me that it could be a possible pairing of Ambition and Odium. But yet, Dominion is it's own Shard. Another more far-fetched one could be Cultivation + Odium = Ruin, but I'm not really sold on that myself. Either way, I don't necessarily think that Retribution/Justice is out just

because it can be a possible combination-shard, since I feel like Dominion already is.

Also, The One Who Connects, I think you accidentally put in the wrong Shard here :-) 

16 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ambition isolating Taldain.

 

Anyway, if I were to be bold and, with the help of @Rider of Storms list of Shards put up my idea of which Intents the sixteen has, it would look like this:

*Odium
*Honor
*Cultivation
*Ruin
*Preservation
*Autonomy
*Retribution
*Dominion
*Devotion
*Enlightenment
*Guidance
*Trickery
*Ambition
*Endowment
*Chaos
*Hope

The bolded ones are the ones we know about, and the others are the ones we theorize about. I don't know how all this would fit in with the categories in the OP though. 

Oh, and I also doubt that Enlightenment (or any other Shard) is with Silverlight. That would give them far too much knowledge far to easily. And then we would also have a Shard unable to find Yolen, which is wierd, since Mraize may have done it. And Mraize is good, but not that good.

[Ethan_sedai]

I was just looking over this, and thought, humans do a lot of stupid stuff, and we are messed up, no matter where you go, all of them copies of Adonalsium's originals, 

Spoiler

like Khriss tells Kelsier in SH

why are these things not Shards? like Stupidity, or something like that. (this brings up another question: was Adonalsium Human, and is all of human nature not a part of a shard somewhere, or are some things left out?)

[Agent34]

5 hours ago, ethan_sedai said:

I was just looking over this, and thought, humans do a lot of stupid stuff, and we are messed up, no matter where you go, all of them copies of Adonalsium's originals, 

  Reveal hidden contents

like Khriss tells Kelsier in SH

why are these things not Shards? like Stupidity, or something like that. (this brings up another question: was Adonalsium Human, and is all of human nature not a part of a shard somewhere, or are some things left out?)

Although it's said humans were made in God's image, stupidity typically isn't a divine trait. 

[SilverTiger]

7 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Although it's said humans were made in God's image, stupidity typically isn't a divine trait. 

Technically, God made us in his image, which means he gave us free will (among other things), which evidently includes being stupid.

[QuantumHarmonix]

Here is another odd thought. We know that Adonalsium was on Roshar at some point, or left some power there. What if the Herald’s divine attributes are a reflection of different ways that his power could have been split. So things like Confident and Leading would make Ambition and Loving and Obiediant would make Devotion. My only pause is that the traits are all fairly positive. Though it is possible that Odium took control of the more negative traits like his own Hate and Ruin’s Destruction. If this has merit, I could see the cautious shard being a merger of Wisdom and Care. 

[Generalbacon74]

What about shame or humility as a shard? maybe that could be the one traveling through space ashamed about something so he/she leaves everything alone. 

[QuantumHarmonix]

After looking through a Thesaurus, I'd pick Prudence as a shard name that would combine the Divine Attributes of Wisdom and Care. And that then makes me think about the Seven Virtues 

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From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

Traditionally, the seven Christian virtues or heavenly virtues combine the four classical cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance and courage (or fortitude) with the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. 

And there is also another set that is more in opposition seven deadly sins. Those would be Chastity, Temperance, Charity,  Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by QuantumHarmonix
extra idea so to not double post