Khyrindor

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The Rest of the Shards and Where to Find Them

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Part 2: And Where to Find Them:

 

This is where I hope the bulk of this thread's conversation will be based. As interesting as theorizing the Intents of future Shards is (and of course you are welcome to do so here), what we do with this information is what makes this thread different from the old one.

Suppose everything I said above is correct (I know, it's quite likely), what would that mean for the cosmere? Which Shards would work together, and which shards would be enemies? Are there others that have been Splintered? What would those Splinters look like? I am going to break it down by Shard and what I think would be cool, and allow all of you to do the same.

 

Disclaimer #1: This entire part is pure speculation, based only on educated guesses on the Intents of hypothesized Shards. Therefore don't take these as proper theories (with the exception of the Shard's Purity and Enlightenment, as there is at least some meat there).

Frustration vent #1: Urg I had a few Shard's worth of ideas that get mysteriously deleted when I continued typing. Perhaps the post got too long to handle?

 

Chaos:

Now this would be a fun Shard. Agents of Chaos don't necessarily want destruction or creation of anything, they just want things to change. They might be Initiated by causing discord, and they'd have a problem with Harmony and Dominion. The magic could be an end-negative one like Hemalurgy which would be highly versatile to achieve many different goals. The Shard could be one interested in non-intervention, in a "letting the chips fall where they may" type way, though I feel like it's more likely that they have a hand in sowing chaos. It would make a good team with Autonomy.

Charisma:

Let's talk about the Initiation of this Shard's magic. Initiation is usually tied to the Intent of the Shard and the individual lining up with it in some way. This Shard's magic would probably Invest people who draw followers based on who they are, rather than force. It may be similar to Alethi society, but ironically more honorable. I think it would make an interesting pair with Retribution. If they had Invested in the same planet there could be some interesting conflicts, though it does seem similar to the conflict between Odium and Honor.

Retribution:

As I said, Retribution would have an interesting relationship with Charisma, despite them being in different quadrants. I would be very interested in seeing inter-planetary agents of Retribution act as a police force for magical crimes Somewhat like the Reckoners or an Apocalypse Guard of the cosmere, bringing justice to those who commit high crimes with magic. Though if this is true, I'm sure the Lord Ruler would have been high on their hit list, so perhaps its an idea for a later date in the cosmere's story. Retribution would have beef with Ruin, Odium, and perhaps Chaos, and would get along with Honor.

Enlightenment:

If there is a Shard at Silverlight, this is it. I admit I was hesitant to accept that idea for a long time, but I've come to realize it makes sense. This Shard recognizes for whatever reason that the best course of action in avoiding death by Odium is to hide and not Invest in a planet. However, if that's what happened, an Enlightened Shard which delights in the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom would never be able to sit idly by and not do anything. So eventually that desire sprouted into Silverlight, where there are magic universities and expeditions to explore the cosmere, all safe (hopefully) from Odium's hateful eye.

Enigma:

It would be interesting if Enigma is the force behind the "shrouding" of Yolen that Khriss alludes to in Secret History. For whatever reason, the planet is inaccessible (if you trust one random line from a character in-universe), and it may be because of this Shard's efforts to hide things. Being needlessly obtuse sounds like a Shard that would tempt Hoid, maybe he knows this one well.

Purity:

I don't know how much I believe in the Purity/planet thing, though I do agree it's suspicious. If Purity exists, perhaps it's on that planet or used to be. Do we have a WoB which would disprove this? Given the danger of fainlife in the cosmere, and the possibility that the Evil on Threnody is related to it in some way (evidence being the red starlight on the map, and the similar way it's described as an encompassing thing that cannot be fought), Purity may be attempting to counteract it.

 

Please comment with your ideas, while I try to edit this into the OP as well!

Happy theorizing!

 

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Yolen isn't quite inaccessible as Mriaze has a branch from there in his collection, just hard to hide. Which fits Enigma better than restriction IMO. Magic systems doesn't necessarily have to have an Initiation based on behaviour, it just needs to match the Shard's Intent. For example allomancy isn't given to those that preserve things better than others but instead is given to preserve their strength. So agents of Chaos may not need to cause it in order to be Initiated although a magic connected to such an Intent feels like something you can do anywhere regardless of who you are, a bit like Hemalurgy. Why would Chaos insist on a chosen few having its gifts?

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I like a lot of the ideas that you had similar to mine if you look at my post from a day or two ago breaking up the shards into four different groups. Though yours focuses on divine attributes of god and mine was more cosmere linked physical, spiritual, cognitive, emotional. And infact a few of your groupings at pretty close to mine. some of the best shards intent I thought was 

Null: neutral, uncaring, emotionless

Barren: halt growth, decay of living things 

Anguish: pain, suffering, torment

Some of the shards I didn't understand well was enigma (as funny as that sounds) if its the shard of mystery and paradox then is it unknown to everyone even the shards or would it trap people in paradoxes like if odium went after it would it trap trap him in a paradox like what happened to ruin ( I know it wasn't a paradox but a prison). chaos was the other one is it like luck only better sounding or like harmony where he (I think) like change but want balance. Chaos just doesn't care. 

On a sillier note if there is a chaos shard and some one was able to describe I want him to look like this.

Image result for chaos sonic

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I like the idea of an Enlightenment as a Shard, I'm just not sure if that would be the Shard that is hiding from Odium. I would think that Enlightenment would want to share knowledge and "enlighten" others. While that could mean Silverlight, I am uncertain that hanging out in Silverlight is hiding from Odium. I am sure Odium is aware of the place, though maybe not depending on when the place was created in the overarching timeline. But I would agree that if there was a Shard in Silverlight, one based on wisdom and enlightenment would be the one.
As for Purity, I am not of the mind that it is an invested planet. I am not saying that there could not be a Shard called Purity, I just don't believe that it would be on a planet called Purity. That is like putting up a huge neon sign saying where you are in the Cosmere. It could be a nice red herring that Ambition created, knowing that Odium would come after them (has a gender been given to Ambition), they found a group of people based off of Puritan ideals and ambition certainly wasn't one of them (its one of the great ironies I enjoyed about the Therondy system). Purhaps Ambition thought that Odium would think that Purity was there and therefore avoid it, or not go to it till later. 

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Nm ignore me

Edited by Steeldancer
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3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

You should have named the topic "Fantastic Shards and Where to Find them."

Ooooo you ninja'd me. Have a reluctant upthingy. :ph34r:

 

I like all the ideas posted here, especially Enlightenment. Can you guess why? That's right, once we meet this shard or someone fairly significantly connected to them, MAJOR COSMERE INFODUMP TIME! HUZZAH!

Edited by The Invested Beard
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31 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Ooooo you ninja'd me. Have a reluctant upthingy. :ph34r:

You should have an upvote too, since you had the same joke :-)

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4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

You should have named the topic "Fantastic Shards and Where to Find them."

I mean, I was alluding to that, but who knows how "fantastic" those Shards would be... You're right though hah.

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I really do love the idea of Enlightenment (or something similar) as one of the Shards, as a fitting divine attribute, as a potentially really cool Shard in terms of magic systems (since Intent is linked to Initiation into a magic system, this could be a very interesting one) and because it would fit well with the idea that there's a Shard involved with Silverlight.

One minor nitpick, it's Frost rather than Hoid who identifies Odium as 'God's own hatred' and thus indicates the belief that Adonalsium=God.

15 hours ago, Rider of Storms said:

Being needlessly obtuse sounds like a Shard that would tempt Hoid, maybe he knows this one well.\

Haha. We actually have a WoB that if Hoid were to be tempted by a Shard it would be Endowment, though I don't think we know whether Brandon was thinking about all sixteen Shards when he answered that question or just the ones we know about, since we also know that whichever of the sixteen he was offered was one that we haven't seen yet.

The idea of a Shard actively hiding Yolen is interesting but there's a couple things that might tell against the idea. First, Frost is still there and he and Hoid are somehow exchanging letters with one another. Since Frost's letter directly responds to Hoid's, there must be some way for other parties to travel to and from the world (if Hoid was going there himself there would be little point in writing a letter and Frost has been referred to as a non-worldhopper). Maybe there's some some trusted intermediary that Frost uses to deliver his mail? Second is Mraize's branch which has been confirmed to be from Yolen. It could just be really old and he obtained it from somewhere else while worldhopping or it could indicate that the planet is accessible and Khriss simply hasn't found it yet. I don't think we have enough information to know yet.

In any event, nice theory all around.

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I'll be a bit more serious this time around, since Shards are something that interests me quite a lot. First off, I like the work you have done here. It's an interesting thread, and I really like the "aspects of God" theory. Out of your suggestions for new Shards, I really like Retribution (should maybe be called Justice) and Enlightenment, and I can buy Purity and Enigma too (I just don't like any of the proposed names for Enigma, that is my main problem with it). I am not overly fond of Charisma or Chaos though. Let me explain:

Charisma is also dependant on the name. I don't like any of the suggested names for it. But then... I don't know if I would want to define leadership as divine trait of the Judeo/Christian God. After all, he gave man free will, and isn't trying to lead us as much as guide us. So I would like to suggest Guidance as a Shard to replace Charisma. The Shard of Guidance would probably be interested in trying to make people follow a specific path or purpose, probably the path as the Shard indetifies as the right one. It might grant magic as a reward to its followers or something.

Then we have Chaos. First off, I love the name of this Shard, but I have other problems with it. I know people want to have another SHard to group in with Ruin, Preservation and Cultivation, but I am not totally sold on that. Harmony already fulfills the neutrality requirement, and I don't see what a negative neutrality Shard would do. Preservation keeps stuff in stasis, Cultivation develops things, makes them change, and Ruin flat out ends them. I don't really see the requirement for a Shard that would be somewhere between Ruin and Preservation, beyond the fact that it would fit a special pattern. That said, I don't really know what I would replace it with. Hope maybe? Hope is something that is closely tied to many religions. Or maybe Forgiveness, although I can see that being within Devotions area. Then of course, Time or something like it would be a cool Shard too.

When it comes to where we may find these Shards... well we know that Dark One is in the Cosmere, and it will be set on Shardworld with a magic system focused around electricity (seriously Brandon, why hasn't this been written yet?). Which Shard would fit this? And then we also have Vax. It might be a Shardworld. It doesn't give us much, but I want to mention it anyways.

 

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'll be a bit more serious this time around, since Shards are something that interests me quite a lot. First off, I like the work you have done here. It's an interesting thread, and I really like the "aspects of God" theory. Out of your suggestions for new Shards, I really like Retribution (should maybe be called Justice) and Enlightenment, and I can buy Purity and Enigma too (I just don't like any of the proposed names for Enigma, that is my main problem with it). I am not overly fond of Charisma or Chaos though. Let me explain:

Charisma is also dependant on the name. I don't like any of the suggested names for it. But then... I don't know if I would want to define leadership as divine trait of the Judeo/Christian God. After all, he gave man free will, and isn't trying to lead us as much as guide us. So I would like to suggest Guidance as a Shard to replace Charisma. The Shard of Guidance would probably be interested in trying to make people follow a specific path or purpose, probably the path as the Shard indetifies as the right one. It might grant magic as a reward to its followers or something.

Then we have Chaos. First off, I love the name of this Shard, but I have other problems with it. I know people want to have another SHard to group in with Ruin, Preservation and Cultivation, but I am not totally sold on that. Harmony already fulfills the neutrality requirement, and I don't see what a negative neutrality Shard would do. Preservation keeps stuff in stasis, Cultivation develops things, makes them change, and Ruin flat out ends them. I don't really see the requirement for a Shard that would be somewhere between Ruin and Preservation, beyond the fact that it would fit a special pattern. That said, I don't really know what I would replace it with. Hope maybe? Hope is something that is closely tied to many religions. Or maybe Forgiveness, although I can see that being within Devotions area. Then of course, Time or something like it would be a cool Shard too.

When it comes to where we may find these Shards... well we know that Dark One is in the Cosmere, and it will be set on Shardworld with a magic system focused around electricity (seriously Brandon, why hasn't this been written yet?). Which Shard would fit this? And then we also have Vax. It might be a Shardworld. It doesn't give us much, but I want to mention it anyways.

 

I agree with your analysis on Charisma, I don't think it quite fits in with the Abrahamic God, but I'm not sure I like the Guidance as a Shard. It seems to passive and too much like wisdom or enlightenment which is already a proposed Shard. I think that just because Brandon based Andolsium on the Abrahamic God doesn't mean that they have all the same qualities. Charisma I think would just make for a better Shard name and perhaps for a better story element. Though personally I wouldn't think Endowment to be the best name for a Shard and that worked pretty well so what do I know. But I do agree with you on Chaos, I don't think that would be a good shard. I don't think that Forgiveness would be within Devotion's area, but I really like the idea of Hope being a Shard name. Kind of reminds me of Pandora's box, you spilled out all the awful things in the Cosmere like Odium and kept Hope hidden. Hope could be the Shard that is hiding from Odium as well, maybe because Hope is the best thing that could fight Odium.... I don't know.

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We could also do a quick headcount of who is alive and dead. We have this WoB:

Quote

LITTLE WILSON

How many Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO. Ish. (He's too tired to do math, but he says it's about half-ish).

We know four dead Shards (Ambition, Dominion, Devotion and Honor). We also know about six living Shards (Autonomy, Cultivation, Ruin, Odium, Preservation and Endowment). This means that four of our unknowns might be dead. Then we have this WoB:

Quote

LEIFTINSPACE

Can you write in one of my books about something we don;t know about the Shards, or at least one of the Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium has killed at least one more Shard than the ones we know about.

This came before AU, which means that it was before we learned about Ambition. Still, put these two WoBs together and we might have evidence to that Odium has killed more than four Shards. At the most, I would say that there are three unknown Shards still alive, and one of them is the Survival Shard. Finally, one last WoB:

Quote

QUESTION

In Shadows for Silence one of the characters refers to “Justice has died here.” Is that the actual Shard of Justice?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That’s a great theory! (Big grin, raised eyebrows.)

I was looking for the first WoB in this post on Theoryland and stumbled upon this one. Could Odium have killed Justice/Retribution? I would certainly do that if I were him, to avoid being hunted down and punished. 

So I guess that we have two or three living Shards to find, and about the same amount of dead to find.

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If is the Hope Shard, Kelsier is going to became its Vessel.:D

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I am in total agreement with the whole Purity-planet-is-a-Shard thing. I mean, it’s bigger than its own sun! That said, if Purity is indeed a Shard with its own planet, it’s unlikely it will allow life to exist on its planet and so there probably won’t be a book taking place there. I think that this Purity Shard won’t have a large role in the greater Cosmere.

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The Justice/Retribution Shard is a great idea... Not only is it a big part of the Old Testament God, but also a big part of human nature. My big objection to your list is that there isn't a Shard of Creativity/Creation/etc. It sort of seems necessary, given the sheer variety and creativity of the cosmere. Also, Enlightenment is a pretty good possibility. One thing to note, Adonalsium is not entirely based on the Judeo-Christian God. Odium breaks that image, because even in the Old Testament, God did not actually hate anyone. He just got annoyed.

Enigma is another good idea, but I would replace Purity with Mercy (Forgiveness, Love, Caring), because that seems much more likely and is a major part of God's nature. Chaos... I would say maybe. The Judeo-Christian God lacks Chaos (he always has a plan, and there is a reason for everything), but this isn't exactly him.

All in all, though, this is one of the best-written and reasoned threads on the unknown Shards that I have read. Good job!

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2 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

The Justice/Retribution Shard is a great idea... Not only is it a big part of the Old Testament God, but also a big part of human nature. My big objection to your list is that there isn't a Shard of Creativity/Creation/etc. It sort of seems necessary, given the sheer variety and creativity of the cosmere. Also, Enlightenment is a pretty good possibility. One thing to note, Adonalsium is not entirely based on the Judeo-Christian God. Odium breaks that image, because even in the Old Testament, God did not actually hate anyone. He just got annoyed.

Enigma is another good idea, but I would replace Purity with Mercy (Forgiveness, Love, Caring), because that seems much more likely and is a major part of God's nature. Chaos... I would say maybe. The Judeo-Christian God lacks Chaos (he always has a plan, and there is a reason for everything), but this isn't exactly him.

All in all, though, this is one of the best-written and reasoned threads on the unknown Shards that I have read. Good job!

Odium is divine wrath, God's anger. Old Testament God certainly had that.

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The idea of a justice/Retribution shard has been floated before. Then, as now I'm in the camp that believe this would be a combination shard of Odium and Honor, not a single shard. 

Every aspect of that intent is covered in those two, and so far, we've seen no overlap in intents. 

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How about Jealousy? There have even been a couple in-world religions with heavy jealousy themes.

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1 minute ago, Rand alSaurus said:

How about Jealousy? There have even been a couple in-world religions with heavy jealousy themes.

I've been imagining Ambition as a jealousy-type shard. The origin of the word relates to Romans looking for votes and political power, but can also mean seeking glorification or superiority. If Ambition represents a jealous, competitive divine attribute, it may be the shard most likely to try to "knock off" other shards in favor of being a supreme shard. Odium might find this particularly threatening.

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13 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Odium is divine wrath, God's anger. Old Testament God certainly had that.

Actually, that would be more Justice/Retribution. The word Odium means hatred, or hate. And Odium doesn't seem concerned with fairness, or if they deserved it. Justice/Retribution only goes as far as is needed to punish someone. It does not start the fight, it just finishes it. And I do not think that Honor covers justice/retribution, either.

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Just now, SilverTiger said:

Actually, that would be more Justice/Retribution. The word Odium means hatred, or hate. And Odium doesn't seem concerned with fairness, or if they deserved it. Justice/Retribution only goes as far as is needed to punish someone. It does not start the fight, it just finishes it. And I do not think that Honor covers justice/retribution, either.

That's because Odium is divine wrath removed from everything that gives in context, resulting in mindless omnidirectional hatred. All Shardic Intents are like that. Ruin's for example isn't quite what it appears to be or what it would be as part of Adonalsium.

Quote

Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous.

Source

 

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Awesome ideas! Love the groupings idea. One minor consideration: Brandon is Mormon and we don't generally attribute much "mystery" to God. To try to put it better, we tend to think of God more as a knowable being, or one who wants us to come to know him, rather than a more mainstream Christian conception that he is infinite and unknowable. So I would look elsewhere to fill Enigmas slot. That said, Brandon is fully capable of incorporating beliefs outside of his own, I just wouldnt' jump to that immediately

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