[OB] On Shallan's possible character progression - and why Adolin is hindering it

[Aleksiel]

Just now, SLNC said:

Nope. She has used it just fine to open Oathgates. With pain, but she didn't need to be Radiant for that.

I don't want to argue semantics, but in my mind to wield a blade is to use it as a weapon, which she doesn't do when opening the gate. So let me paraphrase it - she needs Radiant when using patternblade as a weapon.

[Shadowfax]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Nope. She has used it just fine to open Oathgates. With pain, but she didn't need to be Radiant for that.

She also used it to kill Tyn, to carve out holds in the chasms, and had no problem letting Kaladin use it to fight off the chasmfiend (she had to draw Pattern as Blade first, and will it to stay out and functional as a blade for that to happen).

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

So much the same way Shallan's inability to use patternblade is independent of Adolin, thus why I say you put too much responsibility on him.

No!

He's not responsible, that is Shallan - and Shallan alone. But I don't see the difference between the cause of why she now created Radiant - creating a way to avoid even thinking about Patternblade - and the occasion.

Quote

She let herself be Shallan in some of the moments, but whenever the pain of holding the sword started to spike—whenever she really thought about what she was doing—she was able to become Radiant and avoid it.

Honestly, the worst part is, that Adolin doesn't even realize that Shallan is uncomfortable. She is trying to object, but Adolin in his excitement just already rushed off to get the Blade guards. He didn't even listen to her once.

Quote

This was obviously an important moment for Adolin, and he was trying to be broad-minded.

But… thinking of what she’d done pained her. Holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse.

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

“Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.”

He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within.

He is the cause. Actually no, maybe catalyst is the better word.

Edited October 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He's not responsible, that is Shallan - and Shallan alone. But I don't see the difference between the cause of why she now created Radiant - creating a way to avoid even thinking about Patternblade - and the occasion.

Occasion allows something to happen without being the main cause, the fundamental reason that could manifest on many occasions. In my native language there's a clear cut difference, words for this distinction, but unfortunately I might be failing to portrait it in English. 

[Darvys]

@SLNC You contradict yourself in almost every post, being the cause/responsible is basicaly the same thing. You also state that what could have happened in another situation is irrelevant because we can't know and this already happened so whatever, i don't think i appreciate this line of thought as it would make any kind of speculation pointless, thinking about what could have happened if Shallan had been confronted by another character and her possible reaction helps us understand her actual state of mind and why she chose to do what she did, just because the conclusion some posters reached makes your point moot doesn't mean it's futile. 

Even if i go along with your arguement, Adolin is the only trigger, without him Shallan would have had no need to shape Radiant, how do you have seen her progressing past her block ? Why would she even confess to anyone ? The only truths she ever shared are those she already fully embraced, without Radiant, how would anyone have even a reason to suspect what's going on ? according to you she would just have been able to evade anyone else with more lies. The way i see it, you should be thanking Adolin, as he's the only one, according to you who can, if not push her to open up, place her in a position where she is bound to screw up and attract the attention of those who can help her (himself included).

[Guest]

I don't.

Cause denotes origin, responsibility denotes blame for something.

1 minute ago, Darvys said:

Even if i go along with your arguement, Adolin is the only trigger, without him Shallan would have had no need to shape Radiant, how do you have seen her progressing past her block ? Why would she even confess to anyone ? The only truths she ever shared are those she already fully embraced, without Radiant, how would anyone have even a reason to suspect what's going on ? according to you she would just have been able to evade anyone else with more lies. The way i see it, you should be thanking Adolin, as he's the only one, according to you who can, if not push her to open up, place her in a position where she is bound to screw up and attract the attention of those who can help her (himself included).

The thing is, that in the situation it really wasn't about training with Adolin for the sake of training, but to spend time with him. She didn't want the evening to end, so she went with it and as a response created Radiant. So Adolin was the catalyst for the creation of Radiant.

Let's go back for a bit. Whenever Shallan had to use Pattern as a weapon it was in life or death situations. Like when she killed Tyn, or she summoned Pattern for Kaladin to fight the chasmfiend with. Every time that happened she pushed past her problems with Patternblade. It also shows, that Radiant is not needed for her to wield Patternblade. She just has a strange block for it.

Let us pretend for a moment that Dalinar goes to Shallan and tells her, that she needs to take Blade lessons, because she needs to be able to defend herself. She objects. He tells her, that it is the desolation and that she absolutely has to know how to use her blade, because it is a life or death situation. I don't necessarily think, that she would have had to create Radiant then. She would have hated wielding Pattern, she would have fought against it, but she would have come to terms with it.

She has to be confronted, not protected. Adolin has the right idea, hence he's the cause, but Shallan reacts completely wrong, because she doesn't see the situation as a life or death situation, but rather just spending time with her betrothed. She doesn't feel the need to get past her block with wielding Patternblade. So she creates a workaround, which now exists and hinders her from seeing, that it is actually Shallan herself, that is needed as a Knight Radiant and not Brightness Radiant. She creates Radiant, hence she is responsible.

[Darvys]

@SLNC  All those instances you mentioned were before she admited her mother's murder. Her days spent activating the oathgate would be more relevant, where was the threat then ? The only difference i see with her training session is the duration she would have to keep the blade summoned, the more time she spends wielding it, the more she gets to dwell on what she did, the more "pain" she feels, that was plain from the text itself. In her current state, if she were truly in a life or death situation i think she would either freeze and get herself killed or turn only to her surgebinding to save herself.

Before Shallan shapes Radiant she doesn't think of spending time with Adolin, she doesn't think of training for the desolation, her mind stops at having to wield the blade, everything else is irrelevant, Adolin only comes in play when she tries to check wether he'll be fooled or not. 

As for Dalinar suggesting it, you really believe him pointing out that the training is vital would be enough to magicaly appease her ? I trust she's smart enough to realise despite her trauma that learning to fight is important, but i also believe this knowledge wouldn't stop her from weaseling out of it if  she could find a credible reason. Forunately, she can't and as i pointed out, duration is key, so yes, she'll use her sword if she has to, but that doesn't change the fact that it becomes unbearable after a while, wether she's training with an ardent or her bethroted doesn't matter.

Also, doing something important doesn't make it a "life or death" situation, else she'd be able to eat with a shardfork as well .

 

[Shadowfax]

10 minutes ago, Darvys said:

@SLNC  All those instances you mentioned were before she admited her mother's murder. Her days spent activating the oathgate would be more relevant, where was the threat then ?

 

Stormform Parshendi, the Everstorm returning who-knew-when... Dalinar needed her to operate the Oathgate, she dealt with that need and pushed past her hate of the blade to do what Dalinar asked. She didn't create Radiant to do this. She created Radiant so she wouldn't screw up her betrothal to Adolin. She panicked and it was easier to wrap herself in lies in that moment than just do what needed to be done. Tyn warned her about becoming too invested in her lies and how it can destroy a person; I believe that to be foreshadowing what could happen to Shallan if she keeps wrapping herself in lies this way. Shallan hated her blade before and after admitting she killed her mother. She's wielded Pattern as Blade before and after she admitted killing her mother. Radiant was created only when she felt the need to hide in lies to protect herself from the fear of losing Adolin.

[Guest]

@Darvys

Tyn tried to kill her you know? I would call that a life or death situation.

When Tyn found out, that Shallan was Jasnah's ward, she goes ahead and tries to kill Shallan. Shallans first reaction: Try to flee. Try to surgebind. But it didn't work.

Quote

Calm, Shallan told herself. Be calm!
Ten heartbeats.
But for her, it didn’t have to be ten, did it?
No. It must be. Time, I need time!
She had spheres in her sleeve. As Tyn approached, Shallan breathed in sharply. Stormlight became a raging tempest inside of her and she raised her hand, thrusting out a pulse of Light. She couldn’t form it into anything—she still didn’t know how—but it seemed for a moment to show a rippling image of Shallan, standing proudly like a woman of the court.
Tyn stopped short at the sight of the projection of light and color, then waved her sword out in front of her. The Light rippled, dissipating into smoky trails.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 34

She didn't want to summon Pattern, but she had to. She realized it when Tyn told her the following thing.

Quote

“So I’m going mad,” Tyn said. “Hearing voices. Seeing things. I guess part of me doesn’t want to do this.” She advanced, raising her blade. “I’m sorry that you have to learn the lesson this way. Sometimes, we must do things we don’t like, kid. Difficult things.”
Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest. The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull.
Tyn’s corpse slid back off the weapon, collapsing in a heap.
“Difficult things,” Shallan growled. “Yes. I believe I told you. I’ve learned that lesson already. Thank you.” She crawled to her feet, wobbling.

-Words or Radiance, chapter 34

After that

Quote

They looked from Shallan to the corpse on the floor with its burned-out eyes, then back to Shallan.
She felt numb. She wanted to dismiss the Blade, hide it. It was terrible.
She did not. She crushed those emotions and hid them deep within. At the moment, she needed something strong to hold to, and the weapon served that purpose. Even if she hated it.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 34

She always hated Pattern as a sword. The admission of her mother's murder didn't change anything about that. And yet, she constantly pushed through that fear. When she absolutely had to.

And yes @Shadowfax is right, in that exact chapter Tyn warns her about wrapping herself in too much lies.

Quote

“But here’s the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they’re not real. We can’t let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn.” [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. “When a good con woman dies, it’s usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then . . .”

That something good is represented by Adolin. I think you can figure out the rest.

The fact, that she stomachs her hate of Patternblade, when Dalinar orders her to activate the Oathgate to Narak, show that she doesn't need Radiant to use Patternblade. When she absolutely has to.

She is afraid to lose Adolin, so she creates Radiant. Another lie. I am afraid of what happens, when she starts to believe herself to be that.

Edited October 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Shadowfax]

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She is afraid to lose Adolin, so she creates Radiant. Another lie. I am afraid of what happens, when she starts to believe herself to be that.

This is where I believe her story arc is going. Her story needed to have a reason to create more lies, Adolin presented a good option for this push in her story. She will have to spend this book trying to come to terms with the fact that SHE is all these personas AND that Pattern is both spren and blade; she won't be able to keep everything separated forever.

[Darvys]

@Shadowfax I speak of the days after they reached Urithiru ...

@SLNC You guys have me wondering if you read the messages in full before answering ... Back then she hated the blade, but didn't even know why, she never allowed herself to think about it, so of course she'd use it, she barely even hesitated. Can't you see how the knowledge of her blade's "sin" can blow her reluctance out of proportion ?

She doesn't need Radiant to summon her blade and stick it in a keyhole for half a second a few times each day, she needs her to wield the blade for hours on end without melting down under the wait of her latest Truth.

By the way that Lyn quote is quite irrelevant, her relationship with Adolin isn't based on a lie, nor is she actively lying to keep it, Radiant is about helping herself deal with the blade, Adolin doesn't come into it, but of course you refuse to see this, so ...

I believe i stated my points quite clearly, would be nice if you guys could take the time to read them.

[Shadowfax]

3 minutes ago, Darvys said:

@Shadowfax I speak of the days after they reached Urithiru ...

---

I believe i stated my points quite clearly, would be nice if you guys could take the time to read them.

After they reached the city is when I'm speaking of. The Everstorm was circling around, they feared it's return and the destruction it would leave in its wake. They didn't know where the stormform Parshendi were hiding out. The threats were real. Dalinar had her operating the gate to save lives by bringing people from the warcamps into the city. She hated the blade while doing it. She mentioned it in the text. She was drawing and trying to ignore it but couldn't because of the Truth she had revealed. She still pushes through that hate to operate the gate though. This could have been a catalyst to creating Radiant, but this isn't how the story went here. It proves she doesn't need Radiant to summon the blade, even after acknowledging that she killed her mother with that blade.

 

And I am reading your posts. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean I am ignoring them. I just believe differently, based on what I read and how I see her story forming. I don't need you to agree, I don't need to be right, I'm just stating what I think based on what I've read, and then offering further explanation when I feel I hadn't been clear in my statements.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Darvys said:

She doesn't need Radiant to summon her blade and stick it in a keyhole for half a second a few times each day, she needs her to wield the blade for hours on end without melting down under the wait of her latest Truth.

She never has wielded Pattern for hours on end, she always used him in the short-term, when she needed it, so you can't even say that she was capable of doing that beforehand and that it is the admission of her mother's murder, that is causing her incapability of doing that.

 

22 minutes ago, Darvys said:

By the way that Lyn quote is quite irrelevant, her relationship with Adolin isn't based on a lie, nor is she actively lying to keep it

It is quite relevant, because it shows the difference between lying to others (like a con artist) and beginning to lie to yourself.

She has found something, that is good (the prospect of marrying Adolin) and wants to keep it. She thinks, she has to be someone else to keep Adolin. So she lies to herself. She lies to herself, that she is Radiant. Atleast for the time being. She wraps herself in it to protect herself from the fear of losing Adolin.

She convinces herself of it, that she can't be that Knight that everyone is expecting her to be. Which is a lie, because she already has proven to be someone that should be followed. Someone that is a brilliant knight on a tower. (Activating the Oathgate at the battle of Narak.)

And which is why Pattern is so damnation confused, when Shallan says, that she can't be that person.

22 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Radiant is about helping herself deal with the blade, Adolin doesn't come into it, but of course you refuse to see this, so ...

There is textual evidence, that is proving it to be otherwise.

Chapter 15:

Quote

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

“Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.”

He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within.

“Mmmm,” Pattern said. “This is good. This needs to be done.”

Shallan scrambled through the room to the small mirror she’d hung from the wall. She stared at herself, eyes wide, hair an utter mess. She’d started breathing in sharp, quick gasps. “I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.”

Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another.

Sweat trickled down Shallan’s face, running beside her eye as she stared at herself. What did she expect to see? The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension. Her every muscle grew taut, and the corners of her vision started to darken. She could see only before herself, and she wanted to run, go somewhere. Be away.

No. No, just be someone else.

She mentions it right there.

Edited October 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Shadowfax]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

“I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.”

Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another.

I read this as Pattern being confused because she had indeed been that person, who has wielded the blade before and he doesn't understand why NOW, all of a sudden, she's freaking out about it instead of pushing through it like she usually does. By this point she'd been using Pattern as Blade for some time operating the gate.

 

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension. Her every muscle grew taut, and the corners of her vision started to darken. She could see only before herself, and she wanted to run, go somewhere. Be away.

No. No, just be someone else.

Then this... suddenly her freak out makes sense.  And thus, Radiant is born.

[Darvys]

@Shadowfax Funny, turns out i was the one who misunderstood your first post, i apologize. Still, transporting people to urithiru is important work, but in no way stressful or life threatening to Shallan (beyond the need to use her sword i mean). You are yet to consider in your answers the only point i believed to be relevant, time.

 

37 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She never has wielded Pattern for hours on end, she always used him in the short-term, when she needed it, so you can't even say that she was capable of doing that beforehand and that it is the admission of her mother's murder, that is causing her incapability of doing that.

When wielding the blade before, i sensed revulsion and hate from the text, not hurt. So as far as i'm concerned, it's not much of a leap to assume that.

 

41 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It is quite relevant, because it shows the difference between lying to others (like a con artist) and beginning to lie to yourself.

She has found something, that is good (the prospect of marrying Adolin) and wants to keep it. She thinks, she has to be someone else to keep Adolin. So she lies to herself. She lies to herself, that she is Radiant. Atleast for the time being. She wraps herself in it to protect herself from the fear of losing Adolin.

She convinces herself of it, that she can't be that Knight that everyone is expecting her to be. Which is a lie, because she already has proven to be someone that should be followed. Someone that is a brilliant knight on a tower. (Activating the Oathgate at the battle of Narak.)

And which is why Pattern is so damnation confused, when Shallan says, that she can't be that person.

This is where i think you misstep, she never wanted to be someone else for Adolin's sake, not in WoR, not here. Whenever she tried to act more poised before was because that's who she herself wanted to become. (pause to go read the new chapters) Why would that suddenly change ?

And what exactly happened between then a now ? What Pattern still fails to understand is how the admission impacted her.

For the last quote my answer is already bolded in your message, she was already breaking down when she remembered Adolin, so sure that added to it, but would it have made much of a difference if someone else was present ? When she's always trying so hard to act as in control as Jasnah ? I don't believe it, but i have no real way of arguing against it, the circumstances were rather unique.

Need to go reread her latest chapter with more care now, just skimmed it the first time.

[Shadowfax]

3 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Funny, turns out i was the one who misunderstood your first post, i apologize. Still, transporting people to urithiru is important work, but in no way stressful or life threatening to Shallan (beyond the need to use her sword i mean). You are yet to consider in your answers the only point i believed to be relevant, time.

 

This is where I am going to agree to disagree. I do not think time is a factor, since it is only when initially summoning the blade that we read of her issues with doing so. For this we will have to read and find out. I am open to seeing how it goes. 

[maxal]

13 hours ago, SLNC said:

...

I will answer very briefly and then I will leave this topic and not comment into it again. 

You labelled your post: On Shallan's possible character progression - and why Adolin is hindering it

You make the argument Adolin caused Brightness Radiant and it is a bad thing. You then proceeded to state how better suited Kaladin is to help Shallan with her issues with Pattern. You fight back anyone stating you are putting too much fault on Adolin, then you counter-argue in saying this isn't about him, but about Shallan.

Fine. If it isn't about Adolin and his relationship with Shallan, then why are you referring to it in your every responses?

You repetitively states, throughout your various response, you believe Brightness Radiant to have manifested herself because of her relationship to Adolin. Unlike what you seem to think, this is not an attempt to victimize Adolin (I mean this isn't about him, right?), this is an attempt to highlight why the theory is biased and has been made to prove a point which it refuses to acknowledge.

You might have made a stronger argument had you written a post to discuss as to whether or not Brightness Radiant is positive for Shallan's character or not. Instead, you phrase in a way which blames her relationship with Adolin for her arrival which you consider to be negative. Mind, it may not have been too bad had you resisted the temptation to drop Kaladin in there (Now what is he even doing here? I thought we were discussing Shallan, not shipping).

I will thus be curt and call a cat, a cat.

This theory is written in a way which strongly suggests there is something inherently wrong with the Adolin/Shallan relationship and it has caused Shallan to regress by forcing her to create a double-persona in an attempt to cope against Adolin forceful sword's training. The theory then suggest how Kaladin would be better suited.

I mean... I'll let other readers draw their own conclusions.

[Guest]

@maxal

Honestly, it is not my fault you see everyone, who doesn't see Adolin as perfect as you do, as biased and that you see shipping intentions everywhere someone mentions Kaladin and Shallan in the same sentence. I never suggested Kaladin as a replacement for Adolin - I said that he maybe could help.

You're not calling a cat a cat. You're trying too hard to find implications.

I invite you to read the rest of what has been discussed here during the day. Maybe you'll find it to be more to your satisfaction. And maybe it will convice you of the fact, that I'm not trying to ship Kaladin/Shallan with this thread.

Edited October 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Shadowfax]

50 minutes ago, maxal said:

You labelled your post: On Shallan's possible character progression - and why Adolin is hindering it

You make the argument Adolin caused Brightness Radiant and it is a bad thing. You then proceeded to state how better suited Kaladin is to help Shallan with her issues with Pattern. You fight back anyone stating you are putting too much fault on Adolin, then you counter-argue in saying this isn't about him, but about Shallan.

I think this is because he isn't putting blame on Adolin. This post is about Shallan. Her story happens to include Adolin in it. 

 

53 minutes ago, maxal said:

Fine. If it isn't about Adolin and his relationship with Shallan, then why are you referring to it in your every responses?

It's about Shallan, and that includes her relationship to him (which is different than his relationship to her, because this is from her story and her PoV). The theory includes a proposition that Shallan's desire to hold onto her betrothal to Adolin was a key reason for Radiant's creation. Therefore in discussing the theory, that relationship is important.

 

54 minutes ago, maxal said:

You repetitively states, throughout your various response, you believe Brightness Radiant to have manifested herself because of her relationship to Adolin. Unlike what you seem to think, this is not an attempt to victimize Adolin (I mean this isn't about him, right?), this is an attempt to highlight why the theory is biased and has been made to prove a point which it refuses to acknowledge.

Adolin is not being victimized. It isn't about Adolin. It's about Shallan, and what could help her or hinder her. Radiant emerged, as proposed by this theory, due to Shallan not wanting to lose her betrothal to Adolin and wrapping herself in lies in order to go along with Adolin's wanting to train her in using her blade. SLNC appears to be using the available chapters (as well as the previous books) to draw up his theory, I don't understand what bias you seem to think there is here or what point is or isn't being acknowledged. I am quite seriously confused. I'd love to be able to understand what you mean in this.

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

You might have made a stronger argument had you written a post to discuss as to whether or not Brightness Radiant is positive for Shallan's character or not. Instead, you phrase in a way which blames her relationship with Adolin for her arrival which you consider to be negative. Mind, it may not have been too bad had you resisted the temptation to drop Kaladin in there (Now what is he even doing here? I thought we were discussing Shallan, not shipping).

From what I understand of the posts on this topic, he is in fact NOT blaming Adolin for Radiant's creation, he is simply stating that Adolin was a (to use his word) catalyst for Radiant's creation. It's causal only; there is no responsibility being placed on Adolin. The blame is Shallan's, as it was her decision to create Radiant. Adolin (or rather, her fear of losing the betrothal to him) was simply the reason she made that decision. There is a distinction. And no one has been discussing shipping in regards to this theory. Kaladin has simply been in a place of hatred and worked through it to embrace who he needed to be to progress and this theory suggests that that insight from him could benefit Shallan. Kaladin knows Shallan is broken deep inside; he saw it in the chasms. It's not a stretch to think he could be able to help her, and that is all this theory proposes. This theory also proposes, from what I understand, that Radiant is a setback for Shallan simply because once again she is creating lies for herself instead of working through her issues.

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

This theory is written in a way which strongly suggests there is something inherently wrong with the Adolin/Shallan relationship and it has caused Shallan to regress by forcing her to create a double-persona in an attempt to cope against Adolin forceful sword's training. The theory then suggest how Kaladin would be better suited.

To be fair, ANY relationship in which not just one, but BOTH individuals, are hiding things from one another and unable to share what is going on in their lives is unhealthy over the long term. Shallan is very concerned about losing her betrothal and because of that concern she shuts herself down, creates a new persona to adopt and hides herself and her issues away. Shallan is not opening up to Adolin, she is doing the opposite of that. That is a flaw in a relationship, ANY relationship. 

 

 

Your tone is quite antagonistic and really your post seems to put the absolute worst spin on what this theory was proposing. I don't think the theory is so far-fetched as to require a response that twists words around and puts words into SLNC's mouth. I don't know either of you, but I've been in this thread because Shallan is my favorite character and her development is interesting to me. Her latest chapters show her sliding further and further into her lies and it's quite concerning. I tend to agree with quite a bit of this theory because IF Shallan continues to be unable to share her true self with Adolin, then no, he won't be any good in helping her progress simply because he will still have no clue there's even an issue. Personally I think Shallan needs to work through this stuff on her own and with Pattern, but I do think that Radiant is a step in the wrong direction for her; even Pattern doesn't seem to like this turn of events.

 

I'm not defending the theory it its entirety, but I will defend the theory's right to exist without such harshly negative responses that seem only to insult the theory simply because you don't like it. If, however, you have any counter-arguments as to why Radiant is not a setback for Shallan, or what Adolin could provide that could help her with her progress, I would be interested in hearing them. As I said, she's my favorite character and her story is quite interesting to me. I love reading what people think of her and her arc.

[Guest]

All right, personal conflict aside, I wanted to incorporate Chapter 18 into this.

Pattern is confused about Shallan's use of Radiant.

Quote

“Well?” Veil asked, turning to the wall, where Pattern hung.

“Mmm…” he said. “Good lie.”

“Thank you.”

“Not like the other.”

“Radiant?”

“You slip in and out of her,” Pattern said, “like the sun behind clouds.”

“I just need more practice,” Veil said. Yes, that voice sounded excellent.

Shallan was getting far better with sounds.

What remains to be determined is what he meant with "good lie". He either commented on the quality of the lie, as in disguise, making Radiant a bad disguise. Or he meant Radiant as a "bad lie", because it is bad for Shallan to blur the lines between herself and her lie so much. That he is worried, because she is able to slip in and out of Radiant in a moments notice. Personally, I believe it to be the latter, because I believe, that strict distinctions are important for not losing your mind. But I could be wrong.

That Pattern likes Adolin is not really surprising for me, since he did say that confronting Shallan about the Blade is the right way in Chapter 15. Him asking if it was possible to marry Shallan was sweet.

Though what really intrigued me was:

Quote

“You just like him,” Veil said, “because he tells Radiant to respect the sword.”

I kind of feel confirmed by this. Adolin is not teaching Shallan, but Radiant.

Quote

After a short time walking, Shallan (not Veil!) found she needed to say something more. “Pattern. Do you remember what you said to me the other night, the first time… we became Radiant?”

“About dying?” Pattern asked. “It may be the only way, Shallan. Mmm… You must speak truths to progress, but you will hate me for making it happen. So I can die, and once done you can—”

“No. No, please don’t leave me.”

“But you hate me.”

“I hate myself too,” she whispered. “Just… please. Don’t go. Don’t die.” Pattern seemed pleased by this, as his humming increased—though his sounds of pleasure and his sounds of agitation could be similar.

That also was interesting. First of all, I am glad, that Shallan doesn't want Pattern to die, but I also feel confirmed, because Pattern apparently thinks that killing him might help Shallan progress.

Interesting was, that Shallan admitted to "hating herself" and Pattern let out a pleased hum - or an agitated hum. Could Shallan's admission be part of the reason why she is going deeper into her lies? She doesn't want to be herself?

Quote

“As soon as I got drunk, as soon as I lost control, Veil slipped away from me.”

“Veil is just a face.”

No. Veil was a woman who didn’t giggle when she got drunk, or whine, fanning her mouth when the drink was too hard for her. She never acted like a silly teenager. Veil hadn’t been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family.

Shallan stopped in place, suddenly frantic. “My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right?”

“What?” he said.

“I talked to Balat over spanreed,” Shallan said, hand to her forehead. “But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories…”

“Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

She adopted Veil again, her pain fading. “Yes. Of course I can tell.” She started forward again.

“Shallan,” Pattern said. “This is… mmm… there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don’t understand it.”

“I just need to go deeper,” she whispered. “I can’t be Veil only on the surface.”

Pattern buzzed with a soft, anxious vibration—fast paced, high pitched.

Pattern is trying to tell her, that she is Shallan and should never forget that. Shallan is doing everything to convince herself of the opposite.

What is much, much concerning is that she believes she might have killed her brothers. And that she uses Veil, a lie, to banish the thought. To make herself forget.

Pattern's concern is growing and Shallan decides to go deeper. Pattern hums in anxiety.

 

I feel confirmed again. This is not a healing process. It is a path of self-destruction. And I'm starting to believe it is because Shallan doesn't even want to be herself anymore.

Edited October 4, 2017 by SLNC

[little wilson]

Okay, I'm going to say one thing, and then I'm going to back out of this again. The only reason I'm doing this is because I've finally realized exactly what it is about this "theory" that bugs me so much.

I get that you don't want a shipping conversation, SLNC. I do. You want to focus on Shallan and discuss Radiant and if Radiant is good or bad for her. But that's not what you're doing with the OP or really any of your responses until very recently. You brought the boys in from the start, partially by saying this:

On 10/2/2017 at 1:22 AM, SLNC said:

Now, I'm a pretty vocal fan of the Shallan/Kaladin pairing

(which makes it lean toward the shipping side and which boy is better for her, by the way) and then also by saying that Shallan's creation of Radiant - which she did because she's severely emotionally and mentally traumatized and has been for years, but has been hiding that trauma under a mask - is all because of a boy, because she couldn't bear the thought of him leaving her.

This minimizes her trauma and makes her one-dimensional. Shallan didn't do this for or because of Adolin. She did it because of herself. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if Adolin happened to be the one who was there the way the story was written. It doesn't matter if she happened to think that about Adolin around the time when this happened. It was not Adolin who was the cause or catalyst for it. It was Shallan's severe emotional and mental trauma. The trauma she has not learned to deal with and doesn't want to face. Please do not minimize the impact of this for her and about her by saying she did it because of a boy. She is an independent character and there's absolutely no reason why Adolin should define her more than her own history and personality.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, little wilson said:

This minimizes her trauma and makes her one-dimensional. Shallan didn't do this for or because of Adolin. She did it because of herself. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if Adolin happened to be the one who was there the way the story was written. It doesn't matter if she happened to think that about Adolin around the time when this happened. It was not Adolin who was the cause or catalyst for it. It was Shallan's severe emotional and mental trauma. The trauma she has not learned to deal with and doesn't want to face. Please do not minimize the impact of this for her and about her by saying she did it because of a boy. She is an independent character and there's absolutely no reason why Adolin should define her more than her own history and personality.

Geez...

First of all, I said that because I knew that someone would use it against me anyway, so I tried to get it out of the way. Obviously didn't work.

I already rescinded my use of the word cause for that reason. You're right the causes were Shallan's traumata, but I stand by Adolin being the catalyst. He certainly nudged her into making the decision of creating Radiant on a whim. Which is exactly what a catalyst does. It even is defined as a person that incites change. But we're back to arguing semantics.

I never wanted to belittle Shallan's condition, but I also just can't ignore the impact of Adolin on that situation, by not listening to her. By not noticing any change.

Edited October 4, 2017 by SLNC

[Nebty]

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

Interesting was, that Shallan admitted to "hating herself" and Pattern let out a pleased hum - or an agitated hum. Could Shallan's admission be part of the reason why she is going deeper into her lies? She doesn't want to be herself?

I think this is very significant (and heartbreaking).

I had a feeling that OB was going to be difficult for Shallan. That seems to be the pattern. After his own book, Kaladin spent a lot of WoR being depressed and paranoid in the process of healing. For Shallan, she's finally faced her memories and now she has to deal with all of this pent-up self-loathing she's been keeping under lock and key for years. I think she's going to get worse before she gets better. Just like Kaladin did.

The worst part, I think, is that Shallan just doesn't have the support network that other characters have. Adolin, Dalinar, and Renarin have each other (and Navani). They have a loving and supportive family they can turn to when things get bad. Adolin's trying to include her, but the problem is that Adolin doesn't know. He has no idea how broken she is. And that is why (as of right now) he can't do anything for her. He doesn't know about her trauma with the blade, so to him, training her in it just common sense. And for Shallan, all of her interactions with Adolin are so high-stakes that she doesn't feel comfortable confiding in him. Adolin isn't responsible for Brightness Radiant, but this consistent lack of communication between them makes me really worried about Shallan.

So who else does Shallan have? Pattern. But her relationship with Pattern is complicated, and also Pattern is a spren. He loves her, but he also doesn't really get how humans think. He understands that she's lying to herself but he doesn't understand why.

One of the most significant moments for Shallan's character was losing Jasnah. Jasnah was her mentor, someone she could finally look up to. Someone who, while not knowing everything, had been betrayed by Shallan but admired her anyways.

What I want for Shallan is for her to have someone to vent to. Someone who knows all the secrets she tries so hard to hide from the people she admires. Maybe it'll be Jasnah. But I also think she could really use another talk with Kaladin. The most recent chapters made clear that Shallan hates herself. In her bad moments, she doesn't see anything redeeming about herself. She thinks of her lies as a mask to fool the world into thinking she's confident and competent when she's actually a scared, broken little girl. She wants to be someone else so desperately that she's starting to trick herself into thinking that she is. But I think the significant thing about her relationship with Kaladin (in whatever form you choose to interpret), is that he genuinely thinks of her ability to carry on after trauma as a strength. He admires her because of her history, rather than in spite of it. And I think it would do Shallan a lot of good if she knew that.

[Blacksmithki]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I already rescinded my use of the word cause for that reason. You're right the causes were Shallan's traumata, but I stand by Adolin being the catalyst. He certainly nudged her into making the decision of creating Radiant on a whim. Which is exactly what a catalyst does. It even is defined as a person that incites change.

To be precise, the catalyst would be being forced to use the sword for an extended amount of time, caused by Adolin, not Adolin training her. This is an important distinction because it means that Adolin is not the catalyst. Before you bring up her not wanting to break down in front of Adolin, you honestly think she would be willing to have a mental breakdown in front of either Dalinar's or a stranger, them being the other people likely to make her train? 

[Guest]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

Before you bring up her not wanting to break down in front of Adolin, you honestly think she would be willing to have a mental breakdown in front of either Dalinar's or a stranger, them being the other people likely to make her train?

Look. I'm trying to go by textual evidence here, I can't say whether or not she would rather have a mental breakdown in front of Dalinar, because there is no textual evidence for it. There even is no indication, that Dalinar even planned to bring her to train with the Blade.