Shard Numbers and how do they interact.

[Hawkido]

47 minutes ago, john203 said:

I thought this got cleared up, that Hoid and Frost are the 2 oldest non-shards we have "seen"

I wasn't sure if he was a shard holder that is why I listed it as only a possibility.  note the "might have".  If someone can remember the WoB that puts a nail in this I would be grateful.  I believe everyone thought this because Hoid states that Frost is now "effectively immortal".  But I suppose Frost could be a cognitive shadow much like Kelsier.

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Hawkido

[Djarskublar]

1 hour ago, SilverTiger said:

I think the Horneaters and Shin are native, because they are noted as having languages from the Dawnate language family (which also includes the Parshendi language). There is a Reddit WoB on the language families, btw. The Dawnate languages separated a very, very long time ago- longer than the other languages, I think. This may indicate that the Shin, Horneaters, and Parshendi were three native civilizations of Roshar, before H/C arrived, bringing other humans. Although, the Aimians are also native (pretty sure about that), and they have two languages (probably one for each species).

Horneaters are the result of human/Listener inbreeding. Herdazians too. Sorry to break your idea. It was pretty clever. We don't know much of anything about the Aimians, even whether they are native or not. I could see it going both ways. I also would guess they have one language, based on some minor Edgedancer spoilers.

@Hawkido The thing with your argument as it stands is that you don't have evidence, and there is WoB counter evidence that is conclusive. If we can't trust WoB (in so far as we don't have reason to believe he simply made a mistake) then there really isn't any point in being here. Continuing the discussion would be analogous to believing that vaccines cause autism, when they absolutely do not. That might be too politically charged of an analogy, but nothing else is coming to mind. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with stream of conscious ideas or just spit-balling ideas, but when you start basing new spit balls on spit balls, you enter dangerous spit puddles waters. I'm not really one to talk about that, since I'm more often guilty of it than most people around here, but I do try to base my new ones on old ones that have a reasonable amount of evidence. Like I said before, a large body of our knowledge is still technically theory, since we can't get direct confirmation for everything all at once, so in a sense almost everything we talk about here does that to some extent, but that is basically a technicality. We do have a solid network of implications that allow us to guess pretty accurately, or at least based on the right premises. New people just usually know almost nothing of that network, and it's impossible to bring them up to speed within a single topic. So it may look like we are just being contradictory, but we are really just unable to bring to bear all the tangential evidence.

As for the community toxicity, this is an extremely tame forum. I get that we scare off a lot of casual readers because we know scary amounts of stuff and rabidly want to share. On the other hand, it's pretty rare that we are outright rude to newcomers, just firm that their ideas often don't match up with books/WoB. The only real exception to that is when they enter already hostile, confrontational, and/or trollish. If people are reasonable, we welcome them with open arms. We just hold people to standards (of conduct, not knowledge) that are more strict than your average forum. I would be very happy if most of the rest of the internet became like this. The sad thing is that those standards really just amount to being logical, reasonable, and polite, and we really only require the logic in the theory areas. Some people simply don't know how to do one or more of those, at least online, and eventually get angry and leave. It's disappointing, but better than the alternative.

53 minutes ago, john203 said:

I thought this got cleared up, that Hoid and Frost are the 2 oldest non-shards we have "seen"

It did, indirectly. We got told that Frost is not a worldhopper, and that Vessels are worldhoppers basically by default, even if they stayed on Yolen.

[Calderis]

I have plenty of theories here based on intuitive leaps. I believe things that are not widely accepted. 

If Brandon says something that indicates I'm wrong, I drop it. 

Brandon has changed his mind on things before. He reserves the right to change something, and says it isn't canon until it's in a book. 

Changing his mind, or making a mistake isn't lying to us though. If he doesn't want us to know something, he doesn't answer that part or he RAFOs.

I am still attempting to be civil in all of my responses here. To call this community, one of the most polite and inclusive I've seen anywhere on the internet, toxic is baffling to me. 

I'm sorry if you've take the things I've said as an attack Hawkido. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't been annoyed at times, but we're just trying to make sure that people have the knowledge that Brandon has either written, or chosen to share. 

If you choose to see us trying to spread knowledge as trying to shut you down, I'm sorry, that's just not what we're trying to do. I'm just not going to ignore what Brandon has said and assume he's intentionally misleading us.

[SilverTiger]

59 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Horneaters are the result of human/Listener inbreeding. Herdazians too. Sorry to break your idea. It was pretty clever. We don't know much of anything about the Aimians, even whether they are native or not. I could see it going both ways. I also would guess they have one language, based on some minor Edgedancer spoilers.

Actually, Horneaters are basically human, but have some Parshendi ancestors. Also, there are absolutely two Aimian languages, WoB plainly states that. That there is one for each species (the two Aimian species) is my own conjecture. He also stated that the Dawnate languages have similar grammar, but vastly different vocabulary. This means that it is likely the languages developed in isolation from each other (and probably other languages, or the grammar would have changed more), which fits the Shin, Horneater, and Parshendi languages. I take back what I said earlier about the length of time concerning their development, I went back and did some more research. It was likely isolation, not time.

Edited October 6, 2017 by SilverTiger

[Djarskublar]

Just now, SilverTiger said:

Actually, Horneaters are basically human, but have some Parshendi ancestors. Also, there are absolutely two Aimian languages, WoB plainly states that. That there is one for each species (the two Aimian species) is my own conjecture. He also stated that the Dawnate languages have similar grammar, but vastly different vocabulary. This means that it is likely the languages developed in isolation from each other (and probably other languages, or the grammar would have changed more), which fits the Shin, Horneater, and Parshendi languages. I take back what I said earlier about the length of time concerning their development, I went back and did some more research.

My statement about the inbreeding is not false. Just because it happened a long time ago and probably not for that long doesn't change that. My current guess as to how it came about is war related rape. The point is that they are not a separate race, and as you said are basically human. I see zero reason to believe that the Shin are native. They just live where the Highstorms aren't nearly as big a deal, as well as having a highly isolationist culture. That says almost nothing about their origins.

It's been a while since I've read that WoB so I accept that I'm likely wrong about Aimians having one language. That was me not remembering and guessing based on in-book stuff that's pretty tenuous.

I stand firm on the idea that there are no humans native to Roshar. Else, the Listener songs wouldn't make sense. I don't think the Listeners would feel betrayed by the spren focusing on humanity if they were already there in the first place. They would have already been focusing on the humans.

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I stand firm on the idea that there are no humans native to Roshar.

Quote

Lirins hand (paraphrased)

Do humans predate the two Shards' arrival on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Humans were on Roshar before Honor, Cultivation, and Odium arrived.

source

Well, it does not mean they're native - they might just have come to Roshar before Shards did... (however, is it even possible without perpendicularities that Shards make?)

Nontheless it's something to take into consideration.

2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I don't think the Listeners would feel betrayed by the spren focusing on humanity if they were already there in the first place. They would have already been focusing on the humans.

Unless the spren that bond humans (Nahelspren or Radiantspren as some call them) have only realized they can once Honor created Honorblades. I could see it happening that way - the non-sentient spren could naturally bond Listeners, however those who are sentient and sapient needed to realize they can.

EDIT:

3 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I wasn't sure if he was a shard holder that is why I listed it as only a possibility.  note the "might have".  If someone can remember the WoB that puts a nail in this I would be grateful.

Here you go

On 24.09.2017 at 7:00 AM, luckat said:

Q: We know that Hoid is really old. Is there anyone else around that same age who is not a Shardholder?

A: Yes. He communicates with one of these people by a letter in one of them.

Q: [inaudible]

A: Not very many, let’s say that.

[Source]

Edited October 7, 2017 by Overstorm

[Djarskublar]

2 minutes ago, Overstorm said:

Well, it does not mean they're native - they might just have come to Roshar before Shards did... (however, is it even possible without perpendicularities that Shards make?)

Nonetheless it's something to take into consideration.

Fair. Though we know there can be non-Shard based perpendicularities. First of the Sun is the obvious go-to, but Surgebinding can also create mini ones. I just see no reason to believe that humans are native since they don't have a natural symbiotic relationship with the spren like basically every other even moderately intelligent species there (with the possible exception of the Aimians, but who knows what's up with them). They are also completely unadapted to the environment. I just can't accept that they were there in the first place since they suck at being there so much (relatively).

[SilverTiger]

16 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair. Though we know there can be non-Shard based perpendicularities. First of the Sun is the obvious go-to, but Surgebinding can also create mini ones.

Surgebinding only appeared after H/C arrived, with the Knights Radiant. Also, did you see the note about Shin and Parshendi languages having the same roots? That indicates they once spoke the same language. Other languages likely arrived with H/C (if they brought other humans with them, or other humans followed them). These would be the roots of the other languages families. The WoB:

Link: 

 

 

[Djarskublar]

@SilverTiger well that doesn't say much about it, actually. Dalinar speaks the Dawnchant in his visions, so the language was used at least by the desolation Nohadon was part of. I can see situations arising where both humans and Parshendi end up speaking the Dawnchant, and then desolations messing with languages which we can pretty much be certain happened. Especially since I think one of the OB readings (not the pre-release chapters, but it might have been a WoB) had some ardents talking about how the desolations could have easily made the Dawnchant disappear along with civilization from some desolation. I don't think it's really a big deal what language they speak because the desolations can do all kinds of funky stuff.

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/6/2017 at 1:55 PM, Hawkido said:

H&C arrived at Roshar together, Roshar the Planet or Roshar the System?  See this is what I mean by deliberately vague, and people taking his words for MORE than they are worth.

Roshar the Planet(most likely).

Quote

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Zas

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

Brandon

Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

Quote

Interview: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

The question in the second WoB uses "on Roshar," which has a very clear implication. And Brandon uses "planets" in the first WoB.

On 10/6/2017 at 10:51 PM, Djarskublar said:

First of the Sun is the obvious go-to, but Surgebinding can also create mini ones.

Surgebinding does not predate Honor's arrival though. Most everything else does, but IIRC, Brandon has specifically called that one out. Edit: I can't read and glanced over the WoB...

Quote

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he coopted them. So, Stormlight is there, but there are big differences now. So, modern Stormlight might not be Adonalsium's Investiture. But there was probably ancient Stormlight that was. I'll wait until we get the transcript taken care of, since I was still on cloud 9 from the Harmonium reveal and the Herald reveal.

[...]

That was my thought as well, and I closed that question by asking if Surgebinding was around before Honor arrived. Which it wasn't. 'cause that would have blown a whole lot of collected wisdom out of the water.

Edited October 10, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Hyarmenatan]

On 7.10.2017 at 0:36 AM, Djarskublar said:

I see zero reason to believe that the Shin are native

I also believe that Shin came to Roshar whenever other people did, but it was stated multiple times that they look different to other people. We can ignore them being smaller etc., but one difference stands out - the epicantric fold (is that how you spell it?). I consider this a significant genetic difference when compared to any other people around. 

Of course, it could easily be explained by Shin living in the area with no Storms, so no strong winds, so no additional enhancements to the eyes, as that's what epicantric fold is in my headcanon - a barrier that keeps your vision clear without a need to keep your eyes opened so wide.

[Fezzik]

@Hyarmenatan *epicanthic*

[Crylorenzo]

Not sure if someone mentioned this, but could Ambition be the #3? I believe Ambition is connected to Threnody though it never invested there and there are the 3 simple rules. A long shot, but there it is.

[Hawkido]

1 hour ago, Crylorenzo said:

Not sure if someone mentioned this, but could Ambition be the #3? I believe Ambition is connected to Threnody though it never invested there and there are the 3 simple rules. A long shot, but there it is.

I'll have to re-read Shadows of Silence, I must have missed the significance of three there, but I miss a lot.  From what I know, Parts of Ambition were ripped out in Threnody, so some of him/her would still be there.  Once I see what you are saying I will pencil it in.  I have a particular interest in Ambition as well, as even though Ambition is splintered, it is vague if Odium got to finish the job by stashing the splinters into the cognitive realm (ala D&D) or Ambition managed to hide until vessel death and splintered due to trauma or some other event.  Still curious as to exactly why Odium was so concerned about Ambition.  My best guess is that Ambition would be drawn to conqueror other vessels and begin combining like Harmony did, which seems to be contrary to the way Odium is going about it.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Hawkido

[The One Who Connects]

37 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Still curious as to exactly why Odium was so concerned about Ambition.

Fortunately for you, we have a WoB on the subject.

Quote

Argent

I want to take us back to the Splintered Shards: Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion. So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

It was the Intent of Ambition that worried Rayse.

---

13 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Of course, it could easily be explained by Shin living in the area with no Storms, so no strong winds, so no additional enhancements to the eyes, as that's what epicanthic fold is in my headcanon - a barrier that keeps your vision clear without a need to keep your eyes opened so wide.

You raise a good point. What is the actual purpose of the epicanthic fold? Why do humans have them? Google is being a bit unhelpful with finding an answer to those questions, but I've found some interesting facts and conjecture while searching:

Quote

As noted by many others, the fact that it's present in one of the most archaic (San) human population groups is testament that it may be an original human condition that subsequent Bantu and middle eastern/ European humans lost but East Asians and native Americans simply retained and never lost. It's also interesting that since it appears de novo in the case of Down's syndrome, it could point to an ancient genetic predisposition. The real clincher here is that ALL fetuses have these initially.

---

It was recently discovered that a collection of physical traits typical in Asian populations (thicker hair shafts, more sweat glands, teeth shape, smaller breasts) are all the result of a single gene mutation that occurred 35,000 years ago in what is now China. Of course these gene isn't responsible for the epicanthic fold common in Asian populations, but it's the same principle.

---

It's also important to note that every physical trait does not necessarily serve an adaptive purpose. Sometime useless traits piggyback on individuals with other, more useful traits.

[Djarskublar]

On 10/9/2017 at 6:50 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Surgebinding does not predate Honor's arrival though. Most everything else does, but IIRC, Brandon has specifically called that one out. Edit: I can't read and glanced over the WoB...

That wasn't the point I was making. I was making the point that you don't necessarily have to rely on the dozen or so Shardpools in existence in order to worldhop. I can imagine scenarios where people would migrate to Roshar before H/C got there, possibly even pre-Shattering. I just can't reconcile the idea of native humans with them both not having a natural spren symbiosis and the Listeners feeling betrayed by the spren going to them. I take the spren going to them to mean they have 'juicier' thoughts that shifted how the spren perceived themselves, potentially completely changing a some types to other types. Who knows what kinds of effects that could have.

[Calderis]

I think humans are "juicier" because their more heavily in the physical realm. The Nahel bond works more strongly for the Spren because it pulls them farther into the physical, where for a listener, who is more naturally Cognitive, they would have to attain a higher level of oath to summon a blade due to a decreased physical affinity.