Hawkido

Shard Numbers and how do they interact.

42 posts in this topic

I pulled this from another topic that spiraled out of hand, and I wanted to discuss it separately with out all the other stuff getting involved.

Shards and the significance of their numbers:

Quote

1.    Ruin (Only one power, the power to re-appropriate investiture at a loss)

2.

3.    

4.

5.    Endowment (5 visions of Vo, 5 Scholars, 25 Gods in a full Pantheon)

6.

7.    Fortune (or Maybe Luck)  If there is a shard of this power then this has got to be its number *LOONEY LONGSHOT*

8.    Autonomy (8 SandMaster ranks, 8 professions)

9.    Odium (9 currency gemstones on a 10 gemstone planet, other quotes from BS suggesting 9 unmade and 9 voidbindings) 

10.  Honor (outright stated in books and by WoB)

11.  Cultivation (Seems a likely possibility due to the presence of an 11th gemstone on the planet, the black stone that Gavilar had and Szeth ran off with)

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.   Preservation (outright stated in Mistborn series and WoB)

I want to explore the importance of these numbers.  Scadrial has 3 magic systems, 2 take on 16 known forms and one takes on 32 known forms.  Allomancy, Feruchemy, and the seemingly most numerous Hemalurgy.  But if you look closer and as is stated in the books Hemalurgy "Steals" the form of investiture from the target, and can grant a reduced, in some manner, form of that investiture to a target.  So Hemalurgy really only has one form.  The form of stealing a power at a loss.  While Allomancy has 16 forms, one for each metal, and the same for Feruchemy.  Feruchemy is the "Corrupted" form of investiture caused by the powers of two shards mixing.  If you mix 16 and 1 in a multiplicative/divisive fashion you will get 16.  It neatly makes sense.  The point that Hemalurgy doesn't have a set count on power has been discussed with Brandon and Brandon has given examples and confirmed theories that it can steal more than just investiture, and can steal pretty much any form of investiture so long as it is at a loss.  All of this reinforces the belief that Ruin's Shard number is 1.  Also if the 16 numbers were written in a circle they would be neighbors, just as 12 and 1 are neighbors on a clock face.

There are other shards that have significant number some have been outright stated in the books, other have only been implied.  Lets start with the stated number significant to other Shards, namely Honor and Odium at 10 and 9 respectively.  10 gemstones, 10 surges, 10 Orders, etc ad nauseam.  Honor's number is 10.  Odium's number is 9.  9 void bindings, 9 currency gemstones, I am sure we will find more and more concrete examples of 9 being tied to Odium until Brandon finally comes out and says it.

Cultivation seems to be 11, there is very little information on this currently but it is becoming clear that Cultivation is a neighbor to Honor.  There is an 11th Gemstone on the planet, people swear by Damnation's 11th name.  If Cultivation is 11 then that means 2 of the systems that have more than one shard the shards also have neighboring numbers.

It Is implied that Autonomy's number is 8 due to the 8 professions and 8 tiers of sandmastery.  Brandon has stated that there is a sort of alliance between Odium and Autonomy.  They are also numerical neighbors.  My theory is that Dominion and Devotion will also be neighbors, but her have no clue currently what their numbers are, If anyone has seen a numerical development on Sel (other than 3 for the 3 Major Kingdoms) please share.

Endowment seems to have 5 as its Shard number 5 visions, 5 scholars.  Also the trend has been established in the books that powers and roots are a theme (100 desolations on Roshar, 4 groups of 4 metals on Scadrial) and Endowment seems to have a full pantheon of 25 Gods which would be 5X5.  

Shards we know about but don't have a clue about their numbers are: Dominion, Devotion, Ambition.

Edited by Hawkido
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The "other stuff" your trying to avoid is wrapped up in this issue. Numbers and Foci and all of it have planetary significance as well as shard icons significance. 10 for example is relevant to the greater Rosharan system other than 9 for Braize. 

We have no evidence that these numbers are tied to the Shards beyond the planets they are invested in. 

This WoB makes me think that the numbers are tied to the planets and that they are not inherently part of any shard. 

Quote

The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

 

Furthermore with hemalurgy, it does only appear to have one function, and that is stealing innate investiture from the spiritweb via metal spikes. 

Quote

Just asked this at his signing:

Q:If I wanted to hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?


A:This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.


Q:Would it involve connection between the person being spiked and the bird?


A:Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant.  You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal connection.

 

That WoB mentions an instance of stealing a non-scadrian investiture on a world other than Scadrial, still using metal spikes. 

Hemalurgy, like every other magic system, has a consistent functionality Cosmere wide. 

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I believe you already posted this theory once.

But the reason I disagree with It are the same. Indeed we recived also some new WoB on the topic (the One Calderis posted on 10 be' centric in Great Roshar and 9 in Braize) that still lower the likelyness of the "Shards' Number".

 

By the way, I believe you pushed too far the "Number search" as in many cases you Simply took Number linked to cultural stuff without any connection to the magic (for example the 8 ad Authonomy's One) some magic costants could have some cultural ramification but you could not take a Number because It's appear in the culture and turn It into an planetary constant

Edited by Yata
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@Yata Yes I had posted this on another thread but it began to hijack someone else's thread and I didn't want that, and I also didn't want this topic to be distracted by other things on another thread.  As the Next book will soon be out I am hoping to get more information to add to this list.  Hopefully I will find information about Cultivation's number.  So far 11 seems to be a really strong candidate. as there seem to be 11 gemstones on Roshar, but so far only one occurrence currently of the black gemstone.  However 10 other stones were mentioned used by Cultivation when she recreated Honor's 10 peoples on Roshar, which is why they can bond spren.  The Original people of Honor could not, that is why there are Honor Blades.  So that makes 11 peoples on Roshar, if you count the original people of Roshar (the Parshendi) which cultivation seems to have modified to make them incredibly clingy to Odium spren thus trapping him in the system until all Parshendi are killed off.

Dominion and Domination might not have a number (as they were destroyed so long ago and their power has turned into some ethereal milkshake in the cognitive realm, and some shards might be a no show in the series, or have never been so invested in a system for their investiture to create a full manifestation of investiture such as to have coalesced into separate numbered powers, like Ambition or Fortune (#7 let's face it if there is a Luck or Fortune that will be it's number) if that is indeed the shard's name and not one of its powers.

@Calderis Roshar (the Planet) is not Honor's Planet, Roshar is Cultivation's planet. Ashen is Honor's Planet.  So why with Honor's 10 purposes, does Roshar have 10 as a significant number?  Because that is where Honor's investiture is being seen.  but there is more happening on Roshar, you see 9 as significant there as well... Only 9 gemstones are used as currency.  and there are 11 peoples living on Roshar, counting Cultivation's indigenous humanoids.  We have had so little interaction with cultivation other than Windle and a few snippets about the Nightmother and boons.  We will hopefully see more in the upcoming book.  One of the 10 Heralds will betray Honor or perhaps one of the 10 leaders of the Order's of the Knights Radiant (prediction) 10-1=9.  But that will cause problems for Odium, as it will cause a mixing of Honor into Odium which Odium specifically doesn't want 9+1=10.  You also keep confusing Foci and numbers.  1 is a number, Metal is a Focus.  Hemalurgy uses 1 Metal to steal 1 power from one entity at a loss.  I don't see why you think this doesn't fall in line with my theory.  explain.

There is the Rosharan Myth about the creation of 10 peoples (it states the makabaki, but I believe this to be the viewpoint of an unreliable narrator, and it is actually the 10 kingdoms of Honor) by a woman Parasaphni, which Parshendi written in glyphs is parap-shenesh-indi i believe, then look up Greek mythology about Persephone.  It fits.  I would even wager that that (or a similar spelling) is Cultivation's vessel name.

Edited by Hawkido
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28 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

So far 11 seems to be a really strong candidate. as there seem to be 11 gemstones on Roshar, but so far only one occurance currently of the black gemstone.  However 10 other stones were mentioned used by Cultivation when she recreated Honor's 10 peoples on Roshar, which is why they can bond spren.  The Original people of Honor could not, that is why there are Honor Blades.  So that makes 11 peoples on Roshar, if you count the original people of Roshar (the Parshendi) which cultivation seems to have modified to make them incredibly clingy to Odium spren thus trapping him in the system until all Parshendi are killed off.

Sorry side but what are you talking about? Is It this a headcanon of your?

1) the Gavilar's Sphere could be One of the usual Polestones Just with some peculiar features (maybe size, cutting or history)

2) the whole 10 gemstone of Cultivation making Human, where does It come from? H&C didn't create Humans in Roshar...there were already Humans in the Planet when they arrived.

3) Spren could bond with everyone Hey want (if broken)... No Shard messing required

I have other points but I can't write now. i Will edit this or add a new reply as Soon as I could

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27 minutes ago, Yata said:

1) the Gavilar's Sphere could be One of the usual Polestones Just with some peculiar features (maybe size, cutting or history)

2) the whole 10 gemstone of Cultivation making Human, where does It come from? H&C didn't create Humans in Roshar...there were already Humans in the Planet when they arrived.

3) Spren could bond with everyone Hey want (if broken)... No Shard messing required

#1, so could be means it couldn't be anything else?  Don't be so polarized. (PUN-Intended)

#2 I didn't say she used gemstones, because the Parasaphni story at the end of WoK didn't say she used gemstones, it said she used stones touched by the 10 heralds (which is believe is the same type of stone that Gavilar held, which would be the 11th type of stone), and collected the seed of her fallen lover to create 10 new peoples, it is attributed to the Origin of tha Makabaki tribes, but that I believe, as I stated, is a false view from an unreliable narrator.  Look in WoK before the horn sounds that calls Dalanar's forces to join Sadeas for the fight on the Tower Plateau.  Dalanar, Adolin, Renarin, and Navani are discussing various topics, this is one of the last things they discuss before the horn sounds.

#3 Surge binding was a facet of honor blades on Ashen, that is why the Heralds require honor blades and do not have and never had Spren.  The heralds are seen as uncontrollable forces by the Spren, with no check on them now that Honor is gone, who it seems acted as their guidance/conscious.

Edited by Hawkido
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What? The black sphere only appeared black because it was filled with black light. It's a normal gemstone. 

11 has shown no significance whatsoever. The origin of the Makabaki somehow means that all the races on Roshar were created, despite all of the cultural and linguistic evidence that they came from somewhere else? 

And thank you for ignoring the WoB about how not all shards have significant colors/numbers. 

Repeating something ad nauseum does not make it true. 

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Quote

Roshar (the Planet) is not Honor's Planet, Roshar is Cultivation's planet. Ashen is Honor's Planet.

Surge binding was a facet of honor blades on Ashen, that is why the Heralds require honor blades and do not have and never had Spren.

 

@Hawkido Where did you get these wild guesses you are dressing up as fact about Ashyn?

Edited by john203
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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

What? The black sphere only appeared black because it was filled with black light. It's a normal gemstone. 

11 has shown no significance whatsoever. The origin of the Makabaki somehow means that all the races on Roshar were created, despite all of the cultural and linguistic evidence that they came from somewhere else? 

And thank you for ignoring the WoB about how not all shards have significant colors/numbers. 

Repeating something ad nauseum does not make it true. 

I am one with the force, the force is with me. I am one with the force, the force is with me. I am one with the force, the force is with me. I am one with the force, the force is with me. I am one with the force, the force is with me. I am one with the force, the force is with me. I am one with the force, the force is with me. 

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On 28/9/2017 at 8:49 AM, Hawkido said:

#1, so could be means it couldn't be anything else?  Don't be so polarized. (PUN-Intended)

Yeah it could be almost everything, a regular polestone with a special treatment, something offworld, an 11 Polestones, ecc....

The problem with the idea of an 11th Polestone is the fact that It will be not different from the other 10, so it will hold Stormlight, the people will know it and other stuff like that... I can't for sake of completeness say "it's impossible" but it's extremely unlikely for a worldbuilding's context.

On 28/9/2017 at 8:49 AM, Hawkido said:

#2 I didn't say she used gemstones, because the Parasaphni story at the end of WoK didn't say she used gemstones, it said she used stones touched by the 10 heralds (which is believe is the same type of stone that Gavilar held, which would be the 11th type of stone), and collected the seed of her fallen lover to create 10 new peoples, it is attributed to the Origin of tha Makabaki tribes, but that I believe, as I stated, is a false view from an unreliable narrator.  Look in WoK before the horn sounds that calls Dalanar's forces to join Sadeas for the fight on the Tower Plateau.  Dalanar, Adolin, Renarin, and Navani are discussing various topics, this is one of the last things they discuss before the horn sounds.

The fact remains, the Roshar's people are not created by H&C, be a hypotetical "alterated people" is not needed to be elegible for a Nahel Bond (as foreign human could do without problem).

On 28/9/2017 at 8:49 AM, Hawkido said:

#3 Surge binding was a facet of honor blades on Ashen, that is why the Heralds require honor blades and do not have and never had Spren.  The heralds are seen as uncontrollable forces by the Spren, with no check on them now that Honor is gone, who it seems acted as their guidance/conscious.

I don't understand what it is the point with Ashlyn here.

On 28/9/2017 at 3:05 PM, john203 said:

Roshar (the Planet) is not Honor's Planet, Roshar is Cultivation's planet. Ashen is Honor's Planet.

Again what it's the point with Ashlyn ? By the way, there is no "Shard's planet" there is only "that Shard invested in a specific planet" and in this regard Roshar is Cultivation's Planet in the same way it is Honor's planet...It's possible in the past Honor, Cultivation or both were on Ashlyn but this doesn't change anything

Edit: because the autocorrector screwed and switched "Planet" with "Power"

Edited by Yata
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@Yata, sorry I couldn't get the quote boxes to work. I wanted to know the same things, I just copied and pasted hawkido's post. It is fixed now.

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On 9/28/2017 at 8:05 AM, john203 said:

 

@Hawkido Where did you get these wild guesses you are dressing up as fact about Ashyn?

There is a persistent storyline in the SA books about the Tranquilline halls.  They were lost and destroyed, just as Ashen has been effectively destroyed, some long time in the past according to the silverlight article on the system..  The Belief system about the Almighty is structured such that they (Honor's people) need to retake the Tranquiline Halls.  That is where I am getting this.  Not all myth is false, and not all stated facts by unreliable narrators are true.  Either Brandon Sanderson is either a very poor writer and everyone has figured out exactly where he is headed with this series (I don't believe so, he learned that lesson with the Tower of Genji in the WoT, It was a great bit of story but it was diminished as everyone had figured out pretty much everything that was going to happen there), or there is more here, and he is paining with shadows.  look for information that has been omitted, or deliberately dodged, there is where you will find what he has staged for a big AHHAH moment, that is what I am looking for.  Am I saying I am right?  No... I am not making that claim, this is a theory board, If I could prove all of this I would be able to point to the page where it was clearly written in the books, but then it wouldn't be a theory and it wouldn't be worth posting about..  So Please if you do not like this theory then say so.  then move on if you think i am bonkers.  Feel free.  But this question you asked is a much thought about thing, not just by me.

 

Honestly I might be completely wrong about the human's being what Cultivation recreated with the stones, It might very well have been the Parshendi, there is something hidden there as to why some are RED and WHITE and some are RED and BLACK.  The RED-WHITE parshendi mgiht be HC parshendi and the RED-BLACK ones might be OC parshendi.  But If I do not post my thoughts and theories then no one else will think about them.  We do know Cultivation trapped Odium in the system, and prevented him from splintering Honor.  I still don't know what the Gavilar stone is about and I am hoping more information comes up about it in the first 5 books else it is just a Chekhov's Gun dropped in the first books and just lolling around for a long time like the Horn of Valere.  

  11 hours ago, Yata said:

I don't understand what it is the point with Ashlyn here.

Again what it's the point with Ashlyn ? By the way, there is no "Shard's planet" there is only "that Shard invested in a specific planet" and in this regard Roshar is Cultivation's Planet in the same way it is Honor's planet...It's possible in the past Honor, Cultivation or both were on Ashlyn but this doesn't change anything

I don't believe Honor was invested in Roshar (the Planet), I beleive he probably was splintered there or Cultivation pulled his shattered remains there.

Edited by Hawkido
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screwed up post, how do I delete or hide this post?

Edited by Hawkido
screwed up post
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On 9/29/2017 at 10:26 PM, Hawkido said:

Honestly I might be completely wrong about the human's being what Cultivation recreated with the stones, It might very well have been the Parshendi, there is something hidden there as to why some are RED and WHITE and some are RED and BLACK.  The RED-WHITE parshendi mgiht be HC parshendi and the RED-BLACK ones might be OC parshendi.  But If I do not post my thoughts and theories then no one else will think about them. 

Honor the Shard has nothing to do with the listeners. 

Quote

QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Odium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not originally.
Quote

QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not originally.
Quote

QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No.

The difference in skin color is... A difference in skin color. The listeners predate the arrival of the Shards, and the influence of the Shards upon them is through their interactions with spren connected to shards. 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:26 PM, Hawkido said:

We do know Cultivation trapped Odium in the system, and prevented him from splintering Honor. 

No we don't. We have been told that Hoid refers to her as "Slammer" and people have theorized because of this that she is maintaining Odium's prison. But we have no idea how Odium was trapped. It is heavily implied to have something to do with the Oathpact, which does not involve Cultivation at all. 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:31 PM, Hawkido said:

I don't believe Honor was invested in Roshar (the Planet), I beleive he probably was splintered there or Cultivation pulled his shattered remains there.

This is outright false. If Honor was not invested in Roshar, there would be no surgebinding as we know it as surgebinding is a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, and there would be nothing of honor in the Spren that formed the Knights Radiant prior to Honor's splintering. 

The Spren are all some mixture of Honor and Cultivation, which is impossible if Honor is not invested. 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:26 PM, Hawkido said:

Am I saying I am right?  No... I am not making that claim, this is a theory board, If I could prove all of this I would be able to point to the page where it was clearly written in the books, but then it wouldn't be a theory and it wouldn't be worth posting about..  So Please if you do not like this theory then say so.  then move on if you think i am bonkers.  Feel free.  But this question you asked is a much thought about thing, not just by me.

Theories need to either support claims with evidence to be accepted, or be listed clearly as speculation. Your assertions that Ashyn is Honor's planet, and that the numbers are tied to the Shards do not come across as speculative you assert them as fact, even in the face of contradictory evidence. 

We have WoBs saying that not all shards have numbers. We have WoBs stating that Nalthis is 5 centric. The same with the Greater Roshar system and 10, and 9 for Braize. The only time we see a number connected to to a Shard it is in regards to, or because of a planet. 

I'm not even going to touch the Ashyn thing. Both it and Braize are possibilities for the tranquiline halls mythos. We don't know enough to make claims about what happened with those myths because there is no evidence whatsoever. 

Edited by Calderis
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46 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

There is a persistent storyline in the SA books about the Tranquilline halls.  They were lost and destroyed, just as Ashen has been effectively destroyed, some long time in the past according to the silverlight article on the system..  The Belief system about the Almighty is structured such that they (Honor's people) need to retake the Tranquiline Halls.  That is where I am getting this.  Not all myth is false, and not all stated facts by unreliable narrators are true.

Yeah but as far as we know, Ashlyn could be the former TH, Braize could bt the former TH or something external at all to Great Roshar System.

IF also Ashlyn is the TH (and by the way, the are people living there also in modern days) this give us nothing to say on the topic you try to push into.

Surgebinding as magic could not exist at all without H&C's Investment into Roshar and the Honorblades are only tool to access an already present magic system (they are not too different from Overholming Invested Surge-Fabrials). The simple existence of Surgebinding is a proof of Honor's Investiment into Roshar.

53 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

I don't believe Honor was invested in Roshar (the Planet), I beleive he probably was splintered there or Cultivation pulled his shattered remains there.

We KNOW also that H&C arrived on Roshar together:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

LANCE ALVEIN

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. They came together.

TAGS

And when they arrived there well already Humans and Listeners on Roshar (it's a bit harder to find that WoB but was an @Argent one).

We know also they didn't edited humans to allow them Nahel Bond for multiple reasons:

- Honor was surprised by the first Nahel Bonds, so it's not something of their designed.

- People not native of Roshar could gain a Nahel Bond too, for the example the Irali are confirmed as not Roshar's native.

About Odium's prison your idea could be good as others, it's interesting indeed but for the little we know I find it unlikely.

The only words we had on the topic seems to indicate that Odium's inability to move was a side effect of something Tanavast did (from Frost's letter) but it's not enough to remove a possibility.

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Why not arrange them according to their colors?

Ruin - Black

Autonomy - Red

Honor - Blue

Preservation - White

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2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Why not arrange them according to their colors?

Ruin - Black

Autonomy - Red

Honor - Blue

Preservation - White

The colors are not unique, for example also Devotion is white.

Many Shardworlds with two Shards with a polarized Mandate end to have a black-white theme for who those Shards see themself in the regard of the other

PS: Probably you mistyped but I assume you mean "Odium - Red"

Edited by Yata
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I'm pretty sure that Sazed is dealing with Bavadin/Trell/Autonomy which is represented by the Red Fog in Waxs death scene. So I assume the color red belongs to her.

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5 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I'm pretty sure that Sazed is dealing with Bavadin/Trell/Autonomy which is represented by the Red Fog in Waxs death scene. So I assume the color red belongs to her.

You could see how Odium's color is red too, this could only strenght the point of "there is not a correlation one to one from color to shard" (avoiding all the "faking another shard" argument)

PS: Also if I believe to the correlation between Trell and Authonomy as the more likely, we don't know this for sure yet

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Okay... how to put this gently? Hawk, you don't have any actual evidence. You have a few observations about things in-book, some of which Brandon has told us are false outright. What you don't have is a logical chain of events, just haphazard guesswork. The thing is though, your guess is almost as good as the next. The topic here of what's up with Roshar has very little information, so there is no way to disprove your claim. You could theoretically be right. On the other hand, your idea goes completely against what I feel the flavor and tone of SA is going for. Also, it would cast a long shadow over a LOT of solid theories and generally accepted headcanon. While that isn't exactly factual, it is a heavy weight to counter, so you need plenty of solid evidence to change that. Note: a lot of that headcanon we know to be approximately true, we just can't ask Brandon everything. Case in point, it was practically certain that Hoid wrote the letter in WoK, but it was years before we got actual confirmation. Stick around a while and see what's really up. I like getting new perspectives, but it's very rare to see a new member come out with anything that has great potential, at least in the magic/worldbuilding side of things. It isn't unheard of, though, so read up on some recent theories to get a better idea of things, then use that imagination of yours to impress. I look forward to your future, even if you've had a rocky start.

Out current best-guess timeline is something like H/C come, Oathpact formed and Heralds made, Odium comes, some desolations, Radiants appear, more desolations until they stop, events of the fall of Vorinism including the Recreance, Honor is killed, current events.

@Yata why do you think there are humans native to Roshar? I thought it pretty well confirmed that there are no native humans. We know H/C brought humans with them. That doesn't preclude native humans, but I think what we know about the Listeners and their history suggest there were no humans at first. Also, they don't have any naturally occuring spren bond like pretty much every other sentient species there, with the possible exception of Aimians, since we know almost nothing about them. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that there are humans native to Roshar, and plenty of circumstantial evidence that there are none. I can't call to mind a specific WoB disproving you at the moment, though.

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1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

 

@Yata why do you think there are humans native to Roshar? I thought it pretty well confirmed that there are no native humans. We know H/C brought humans with them. That doesn't preclude native humans, but I think what we know about the Listeners and their history suggest there were no humans at first. Also, they don't have any naturally occuring spren bond like pretty much every other sentient species there, with the possible exception of Aimians, since we know almost nothing about them. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that there are humans native to Roshar, and plenty of circumstantial evidence that there are none. I can't call to mind a specific WoB disproving you at the moment, though.

Actually I didn't say that (also if it's possible).

I said there were Humans on Roshar before H&C arrived (and at the Shattering's time), there is a WoB about (I believe it was an @Argent one by Reddit) that surprised us all on the topic.

So before H&C there were already Humans on Roshar but they could be or not native of the planet

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Hmm... Well I'd like to see that. I guess I could see it being the Iriali. I guess I'll rummage around Page's collection.

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On 10/4/2017 at 2:40 PM, Yata said:

Actually I didn't say that (also if it's possible).

I said there were Humans on Roshar before H&C arrived (and at the Shattering's time), there is a WoB about (I believe it was an @Argent one by Reddit) that surprised us all on the topic.

So before H&C there were already Humans on Roshar but they could be or not native of the planet

I think the Horneaters and Shin are native, because they are noted as having languages from the Dawnate language family (which also includes the Parshendi language). There is a Reddit WoB on the language families, btw. The Dawnate languages separated a very, very long time ago- longer than the other languages, I think. This may indicate that the Shin, Horneaters, and Parshendi were three native civilizations of Roshar, before H/C arrived, bringing other humans. Although, the Aimians are also native (pretty sure about that), and they have two languages (probably one for each species).

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On 10/4/2017 at 5:08 AM, ScavellTane said:

Why not arrange them according to their colors?

Ruin - Black

Autonomy - Red

Honor - Blue

Preservation - White

As Yata posted the colors are not unique.  To date the Numbers have been unique and also fall into the 16 and under domain, which is important as there are only 16 shards.  Perhaps the colors align to an attitude or a purpose being exercised.  Syl is White most of the time but at other times she is bluish (this could be atmospheric, but she doesn't provide light so I don't believe so).  Cultivation has presented as black and also green, and Brandon has stated that Ruin and Cultivation share a symbiotic link (or complimentary/supplementary relationship).

On 10/4/2017 at 1:12 PM, Djarskublar said:

Okay... how to put this gently? Hawk, you don't have any actual evidence. You have a few observations about things in-book, some of which Brandon has told us are false outright. What you don't have is a logical chain of events, just haphazard guesswork. The thing is though, your guess is almost as good as the next. The topic here of what's up with Roshar has very little information, so there is no way to disprove your claim. You could theoretically be right. On the other hand, your idea goes completely against what I feel the flavor and tone of SA is going for. Also, it would cast a long shadow over a LOT of solid theories and generally accepted headcanon. While that isn't exactly factual, it is a heavy weight to counter, so you need plenty of solid evidence to change that. Note: a lot of that headcanon we know to be approximately true, we just can't ask Brandon everything. Case in point, it was practically certain that Hoid wrote the letter in WoK, but it was years before we got actual confirmation. Stick around a while and see what's really up. I like getting new perspectives, but it's very rare to see a new member come out with anything that has great potential, at least in the magic/worldbuilding side of things. It isn't unheard of, though, so read up on some recent theories to get a better idea of things, then use that imagination of yours to impress. I look forward to your future, even if you've had a rocky start.

Out current best-guess timeline is something like H/C come, Oathpact formed and Heralds made, Odium comes, some desolations, Radiants appear, more desolations until they stop, events of the fall of Vorinism including the Recreance, Honor is killed, current events.

Probably one of the best comments to one of my loony theories.  You actually read it, and suppressed your gag reflex long enough to make a thoughtful comment.  I am not the type of person who takes every step, I leap and bound.  If you want to fly, you have to get both feet off the ground.  I am not looking for someone to disprove my loony theories, to do that all you have to say, and many have, is "That hasn't been written!"  I am looking for things that noone else is talking about or willing to talk about because of the toxic nature of these forums, and believe me, it is toxic (I know a dozen Cosmere readers who won't even post because they see how others are treated).

Brandon is trying to maintain the mystery of this story, the more material he puts out the harder that becomes, many of the statements he makes are deliberately passive, or the exclusivity of his statements is left deliberately vague, so as to have people make an assumption and put them on the wrong path, especially if he sees what they are after, he can lean his statement into going down a trail of red herring.  Brandon has said that some shards won't have a significant number, My theory is that they all have a number, some shards such as D&D and Ambition who are splintered have lost the cohesion to express that aspect.  Others, such as whatever shard Frost might have will not ever make it into the story proper and thus doesn't need to be developed storywise.  The Theory that the numbers are planet based falls flat, I suspect that it will fall even flatter as the story unfolds.  I cannot articulate why, this is yet another intuitive leap.  I believe people have taken Brandon's words for MORE than they are worth.  If another shard shows up on a different planet and their number is expressed there then we will have proof that the planet number theory is WRONG.

I appreciate that you have posted and have actually acknowledged that I do not believe my theory is 100% correct, it is in fact guesswork based upon fictional writing.  I sincerely appreciate it, many people do not see that this is a flow of consciousness theory, only dead people have static theories that never change to accommodate new data.  I look forward to the ridicule as parts of my theory fall apart when new books are released, as I am not afraid to be wrong.

@Yata H&C arrived at Roshar together, Roshar the Planet or Roshar the System?  See this is what I mean by deliberately vague, and people taking his words for MORE than they are worth.

Edited by Hawkido
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1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

Others, such as whatever shard Frost might have will not ever make it into the story proper and thus doesn't need to be developed storywise.

I thought this got cleared up, that Hoid and Frost are the 2 oldest non-shards we have "seen"

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