[OB] The champion of odium

[Kira0147]

Hello Everybody,

while I was reading the last chapters of oathbringer, I read this sentence said by adolin :

“Oh, for Damnation’s sake, Shallan. Can I come in now? And just so we’re clear, I’m a man and your betrothed, my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine, I have a birthmark on the back of my left thigh, and I had crab curry for breakfast. Anything else you need to know?”

Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but maybe it's a hint from Brandon, that Adolin is related to the number nine (and nine is important in braize and important for Odium)

What do you think ?

 

[Blacksmithki]

While this could be the case, it is more likely, and simple, that this is referring to something along the lines of our astronomical signs, but, I will admit it is something entirely possible, only more likely irrelevant then not.

[redbishop]

I recall hearing (because Audiobooks) Lift mentioning "The Nine" in a semi-religious context.  What all (other than 9 abandoned Honorblades) do we have reference to 9 of?

Also, you forgot to mention the fact that the man ate crab curry, for BREAKFAST!  A bit suspicious, don't you think?  No mention of lunch, either...  plainly a champion of hatred.

Case closed.

[Stark]

I don't know.  I think there is a really, really good reason why Pattern would be so concerned about Shallan hating him.  She dislikes the part of herself that killed her parents so strongly that she cannot even touch Pattern's physical form without pain, almost as if he was already a dead blade.  She must tell herself constantly that she does not hate Pattern, and must create a new persona for herself to be able to handle him.

 

And most telling of all, Odium has been touching and affecting the Davar family for years.

 

What if we are slowly watching Shallan begin to hate herself, and the spren bonded to her for what happened in her childhood?  What if Shallan is the champion, unexpected, because Shallan, who would expect it?  Familiar to Dalinar - though her eyes are black and blue, the colour of her current order is red.  While we have a WOB stating that inherited lighteyes from a Radiant ancestor should stay, but that does not mean that hers won't change to garnet.

 

And for @maxal, what if Adolin's role is to bring her out of her hatred?  Or, more tragically, indirectly push her off the deep end if the result of the murder investigation should have a severe negative consequence for him?  Why not both?  What if she truly begins to hate herself, and then Alethi society if Adolin is banished for his crime, but he returns in a later book to help defeat her, the champion of Odium?

[Blacksmithki]

2 minutes ago, redbishop said:

I recall hearing (because Audiobooks) Lift mentioning "The Nine" in a semi-religious context.  What all (other than 9 abandoned Honorblades) do we have reference to 9 of?

Also, you forgot to mention the fact that the man ate crab curry, for BREAKFAST!  A bit suspicious, don't you think?  No mention of lunch, either...  plainly a champion of hatred.

Case closed.

Well, you also have to consider ten as well as nine, because it could be the ninth of ten of something.

[Kira0147]

@redbishop, YEES, now that I read it carefully definitely suspicious.

@Stark, that's an interesting theory, but I really can't see shallan becoming the champion, the way I see it she just need to find her path, like Kaladin with his depression

[The Invested Beard]

1 hour ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well, you also have to consider ten as well as nine, because it could be the ninth of ten of something.

Correct. I'm assuming it's something to do with the Heralds or their virtues.

[ChazBolt]

More important to mention, Adolin is the one of the only characters we seen give in to deep seated hatred. Kaladin had true hatred Amram but never acted so blatantly on it and felt it was justice (Skybreaker) that should determine his fate. Adolin killed Sadeas not due to judging him as evil, but because of personal hatred (Odium). 

[Sirscott13]

Might be a long shot but I thought Szeth was the champion, although an unwillingly one. 

My reasoning stems back to his first attempt on Dalinar’s life when both the Stormfather and Syl refer to him as the one who hates. 

[jefftucker0525]

i kind of doubt it purely because of the fact that on the back cover of WoK it says that one of the 4 we're watching is the champion of Odium. Idk the exact words but im sure a bunch of people do. But basically it has to be either Shallan, Kaladin, Szeth, or Dalinar. My moneys on Kaladin because of how unexpected it would be lol.

[Sirscott13]

7 minutes ago, jefftucker0525 said:

i kind of doubt it purely because of the fact that on the back cover of WoK it says that one of the 4 we're watching is the champion of Odium. Idk the exact words but im sure a bunch of people do. But basically it has to be either Shallan, Kaladin, Szeth, or Dalinar. My moneys on Kaladin because of how unexpected it would be lol.

See my post above of my thinking it is Szeth 

[scifan]

10 minutes ago, Sirscott13 said:

Might be a long shot but I thought Szeth was the champion, although an unwillingly one. 

My reasoning stems back to his first attempt on Dalinar’s life when both the Stormfather and Syl refer to him as the one who hates. 

I'd interpreted that as the one who hates was watching - meant Odium... but I've been VERY wrong before... especially where Brandon's concerned...

Edited September 27, 2017 by scifan

[jefftucker0525]

@Sirscott13 i wasnt replying specifically to u just to the post in general

[Sirscott13]

Just now, scifan said:

I'd interpreted that as the one who hates was watching - meant Odium... but I've been VERY wrong before... especially where Brandon's concerned...

At first glance this would be the thought but if we dig deaper into who the champion is, I keep coming back to Szeth. He has more blood on his hands than he ever wanted and hates everyone for it. He hates his people for falsely making him truthles, he hates the radiant for existing and making his existence as a truth less pointless and the deaths his fault, and he has a very deep hatred of himself. He is technically classified as skybreaker right now, but more likely he is being chosen and manipulated by odium. 

[maxal]

7 hours ago, Stark said:

And for @maxal, what if Adolin's role is to bring her out of her hatred?  Or, more tragically, indirectly push her off the deep end if the result of the murder investigation should have a severe negative consequence for him?  Why not both?  What if she truly begins to hate herself, and then Alethi society if Adolin is banished for his crime, but he returns in a later book to help defeat her, the champion of Odium?

I think Adolin's role will be to help Shallan overcome her issues with her Pattern Blade. I think his deep love and respect for Shardblades, his passionate speeches will win her over and they will, with time, help her heal and accept she does not have to hate her Blade for what happened, but the people who made her mother want to kill her.

This being said, after reading those chapters, I am thinking Shallan will also have a role to play with Adolin: they promised they would not let each other go. I am unsure how it will all unraveled and while I a convinced chull will hit the fan, I could see Shallan helping Adolin reconcile himself with... himself. What he is doing isn't so different then what she has been doing: if someone is likely to notice it, it has to be her. 

I do not think of Shallan as Odium's champion. I read her as healing not regressing.

5 hours ago, ChazBolt said:

More important to mention, Adolin is the one of the only characters we seen give in to deep seated hatred. Kaladin had true hatred Amram but never acted so blatantly on it and felt it was justice (Skybreaker) that should determine his fate. Adolin killed Sadeas not due to judging him as evil, but because of personal hatred (Odium). 

I disagree. Adolin's hatred towards Sadeas was entirely justified, provoked and reasonable considering the context. What hasn't been reasonable is Dalinar still yearning to make an ally out of Sadeas. Also, it was confirmed by WoB Adolin is not under the influence of Odium, though there might be a story arc where others think he is.

On the matter of the Champion, it may be he is someone from old time, it may be he never dies, but comes back. 

[ChazBolt]

12 hours ago, maxal said:

 I disagree. Adolin's hatred towards Sadeas was entirely justified, provoked and reasonable considering the context. 

I agree that it was justified, but Adlon didn't use that language. He didn't do that in a moment of justice seeking, he did that in a moment of boiling anger. 

As for the WoB, I'm not a scholar of that knowledge, so that's new to me. We will hav to see how it develops then. If he's not under his influence now he could be later.

Edited September 28, 2017 by ChazBolt

[Catladyman]

@jefftucker0525 here is the exact wording:

Quote

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

I believe that the "us" here refers to Aimians, possibly the Sleepless in particular. The word "redeem" seems to be a clue to me because of the Scouring of Aimia. Obviously something happened to make other people of Roshar annihilate Aimia, so maybe whatever caused this is what needs to be redeemed. I think one of these four will destroy the Aimians by remembering/revealing some secret of Aimians resulting in their destruction. 

[Isaiah Zayth]

7 hours ago, jefftucker0525 said:

i kind of doubt it purely because of the fact that on the back cover of WoK it says that one of the 4 we're watching is the champion of Odium. Idk the exact words but im sure a bunch of people do. But basically it has to be either Shallan, Kaladin, Szeth, or Dalinar. My moneys on Kaladin because of how unexpected it would be lol.

I believe the words you are referring to are, "And one of them will destroy us".

I'd like to point out a couple things:

1. I tend to think the "us" in this statement refers to the Sleepless, as I believe one of them wrote this summary. If that is the case, there are other ways to destroy the Sleepless then having one of the four (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Szeth) become Odium's champion. It doesn't preclude the idea, but I doubt it happens just to destroy the Sleepless. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

2. If the words are referring to the Rosharian peoples as a whole, then I'd like to point out It is possible to destroy through both action and inaction. One of the four could destroy Roshar simply by failing to destroy Odiums champion, or by failing to unite Roshar, or by regressing in their oaths, or by dying... etc..

In other words, I don't think the words on the back of WoK are referring to one of the four becoming Odium's champion. Yes, it's a possibility, but I don't think there is enough specificity to assume the passage refers to Odium.

That being said, the inclusion of the number 9 in reference to Adolin is very interesting. Because we have a WoB stating Odium has no influence on Adolin currently, I'm leaning toward the information being a coincidence.

[Hawkido]

I have been posing a theory about the shard significant numbers... why they have significant numbers is still up in the air (My current and ever-changing belief is it is the order in which the shards were picked up).  But I have been proposing that Odium's number was 9 for many months now.  9 currency gemstones, 9 void-bindings, etc, and well now 9 Shadows from his champion... It seems that each shard has an important number, Brandon is seems has stated that some don't, but D&D have been gone for so long and their power is now soup I don't know that there is enough left of them for their purposes to be distinct any more and some shard never got to plant root and thus would have no manifestation of power such that we could count them out like Ambition or see their cultural effects as they never stayed in one place to greatly influence culture and stratify into the culture Layers and sidebands of layers like we see on Endowment's world Nalthis (5 Visions, 5 Scholars, 25 returned gods in the Pantheon)  Some shards might not even turn up in the Cosmere Storyline.  But my theory is if there is a Luck or a Fortune Shard their number will be 7.  Daddy needs a new pair of shoes!

[Metalrift]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

I disagree. Adolin's hatred towards Sadeas was entirely justified, provoked and reasonable considering the context. What hasn't been reasonable is Dalinar still yearning to make an ally out of Sadeas. Also, it was confirmed by WoB Adolin is not under the influence of Odium, though there might be a story arc where others think he is.

How reasonable their actions are has nothing to do with whether or not their actions are of Odium or Honour. Adolin's hatred is a form of odium because it was reasonable given Sadeas' actions. Dalinar's desire to ally with Sadeas is a form of honour despite all reason. That said, I do not believe that Adolin is likely to be the champion because he has not continued to act out of hatred.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Metalrift

[Stark]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I read her as healing not regressing.

I agree with you, her facing truths about herself, however painful and abrupt, will help her heal in the long term.  Especially with positive influences from Adolin, and Jasnah, provided she returns.

 

However, that healing could be slowed, halted or straight up sabotaged if an external force finds an in to twist her to its desires.  And the fact that she and Pattern are making such a big deal about her trying not to hate the blade, and Pattern being willing to die so a different Cryptic can bond her truths, seems to be a huge thing.

 

As a quick aside, Pattern dying for her would be a terrible idea.  If another person, that close to her dies, and for that reason, I can totally see her spiraling. Her mother and father dead by her hand, her spren essentially committing suicide for her.  Recipe for disaster. 

 

Odium, like Ruin before, finds people who are cracked to worm influence in.  Odium is more subtle by necessity - he does not have hemalurgic spikes, that we know of, to exert his influence.  But if we look at a family that has been under the direct influence of Odium for years, through her father, and she has this giant crack in he soul she is trying to repair.  A crack that could easily lead to hatred if untended?  Yeah, Odium can get in there.  

 

On her own, without a Shard influencing, I think she will heal, and faster with Adolin's help.  With Odium expending effort to keep her uncomfortable around her spren and stoking her hatred, especially with the shady influence of the Ghostbloods, who seem less than altruistic.... Yeah, she can be pushed of that particular ledge and become the champion by degrees.  Especially if something terrible happens to Adolin.

 

And if nothing else, it would be compelling.  A villain you can empathize with is the best kind of villain, because they are not black and white, good vs evil.  It is part of why Eshonai is so tragic, she was possessed.  But Shallan, who step by step slips further into darkness with a malevolent force prodding her along the way, would be terrifying. 

 

There is an argument to be made that I have been reading too much Stephen King lately...

 

Also, it would be new.  Brandon has not written a true female villain yet.  I mean, we have Shan Elariel, who was minor at best.  Bands of Mourning spoiler:

Spoiler

Telsin is also there, but most of her is behind the scenes, so she is not really compelling other than being Wax's sister

Bavadin might be up there, but that is not clear yet. Eshonai is corrupted, and her sister is definitely Mz. Hyde, so we have had unpleasant women, and we have had women on the wrong side of the protagonists.  But to have a a perspective character, one who we know and deeply care for go dark side?  Kelsier probably, Hrathren did the wrong things with the best of intentions, but we do not have a female villain.  And I would love to see it happen.  

 

I know it's not likely to happen, but dark side Shallan would be really neat.

[Sayis]

All these well thought out posts.. so im going to ruin it with my 2c. 

 

I want it to be a herald. Taln to be specific. The whole 9 shadow thing fits and we dont really know what happens in damnation.

I reckon there was more to the oathpact than the heralds knew.

 

Szeth is a nice option too...but imagion Taln strutting up with black shardplate and nightblood. There is your next 5 books.

 

Many things are probibly wrong with this.. but i dont see them.

[bo.montier]

Ok, I'm not as knowledgeable about all the theory as some of you are, but I'm confused as to why Eshonai isn't in the discussion. It seems like she is the obvious choice (which understandably makes me skeptical). She's a voidbringer, who has plate and blade. The fact that Odium's champion has plate and blade mean they've gotten it from somewhere. One of the existing KR would have to kill their spren to become the champion, and Dalinar is ruled out as a result, since the Stormfather won't become shards for him. I don't see Shallan or Kaladin killing their spren at this point, particularly not Kaladin, not after WoR. Shallan could go down that route, but I, like several of you, read her as healing more and more over time, and becoming stronger and more resilient as a result--as an aside, I genuinely wonder what her last truth will be. 

So, to me, Eshonai makes the most sense. A voidbringer with plate and blade, one who has been utterly consumed by odium, despite the tiny inner voice protesting the change.

[Sliverofnone]

17 hours ago, jefftucker0525 said:

i kind of doubt it purely because of the fact that on the back cover of WoK it says that one of the 4 we're watching is the champion of Odium. Idk the exact words but im sure a bunch of people do. But basically it has to be either Shallan, Kaladin, Szeth, or Dalinar. My moneys on Kaladin because of how unexpected it would be lol.

I'm not sure it has to be one of these 4. The back cover for OB has 5, the captain, the spy, the stonewalker, THE TRAITOR, and the king. Granted the traitor does not need to be the one who will become the champion. It could refer to a few possibilities, I like the idea of a Herald. Taln's mind being broken a la Manchurian candidate? 

 

[Sliverofnone]

1 minute ago, bo.montier said:

So, to me, Eshonai makes the most sense. A voidbringer with plate and blade, one who has been utterly consumed by odium, despite the tiny inner voice protesting the change.

I get that its the most obvious, but it seems too close what happened in Mistborn Era 1.

Spoiler

Ruin controlled Marsh in a similar way, with Marsh able to think in the background of Ruin's control. It shows that Shards can control people/listeners who use certain forms of investiture, mechanically working similar to hemalurgy. But Marsh was kind of Ruin's champion, unwilling, yet not able to break free. 

I think that we will see something different for Eshonai.