[OB] Is the Everstorm a Good thing?

[+eveorjoy]

Is the Everstorm a good thing?

Yes, we know it is from Odium. Yes, it can allow some really awful things to exist. However, it freed a people and from what we know of the listeners, even in chapter 14, they aren't any more evil than the Alethi. 

Since the prologue, some have been disappointed in Galivar for wanting to bring about the Everstorm. However, maybe he realized leaving the parshmen with an enslaved minds was wrong and the Everstorm was the only way to free them. Yes, he wanted a crisis to unite the people, but also could he have wanted to correct this evil done to the parshmen?

Further is the shard Odium, not Rayse, the shard Odium itself evil? It interesting Brandon calls the shard Odium and not anger or hatred. Odium is hatred or disgust at another because of actions they have done. Odium is born from injustice and a desire to bring retribution for evils committed. So in the right context odium is not evil and even necessary.

So the Everstorm will end the world as they know it. However, was it good to preserved Roshar as it was and leave innocent people to be born, live, and die as slaves? I don't think it was. So if the Everstorm was the only way to free the innocent parshmens' minds, maybe is a good thing.

 

[Calderis]

Odium has two meanings. The one you listed, and something that inspires those feelings in others. Brandon has said that both of these meanings apply to the Shard. 

While I agree that this single aspect of the Everstorm is not a bad thing, I don't believe it's the point of the storm at all. 

Many poisons/venoms have beneficial side effects. They'll still kill you. 

[redbishop]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Many poisons/venoms have beneficial side effects. They'll still kill you. 

What an ominous statement, since the difference is in dosage...  and we are soon to see what happens after another dose of the Everstorm!

Also, in point of fact, Gavilar sought to bring back the Parshendi gods, not specifically the Everstorm.

[Salkara]

1 minute ago, redbishop said:

What an ominous statement, since the difference is in dosage...  and we are soon to see what happens after another dose of the Everstorm!

Also, in point of fact, Gavilar sought to bring back the Parshendi gods, not specifically the Everstorm.

Well, it's possible that he couldn't bring one without the other.

My personal theory is that we haven't had the last twist out of Gavilar yet. I get the feeling we'll end up begrudgingly liking him by the end of the series, much as we begrudgingly liked some aspects of TLR by the end of HoA.

[Yezrien]

I think the defining difference here comes from the Second Letter:

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He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. 

Odium might have done some good when it was part of Adonalsium, but without that context, it runs amok.

The Everstorm may have liberated the parshmen, but I don't think Odium cares about their freedom. We've already seen him make slaves of the Parshendi.

[redbishop]

Just now, Salkara said:

haven't had the last twist out of Gavilar yet. I get the feeling we'll end up begrudgingly liking him by the end of the series, much as we begrudgingly liked some aspects of TLR by the end of HoA.

Almost certainly!  Brandon doesn't seem to own black or white pencils.  I can't point to a single character (with the possible exception of Straff Venture) that I can say I unambiguously hate.  Gavilar did some good things, and it is unlikely he set things in motion.  After all, Szeth had been named Truthless before Gavilar met the Parshendi.

[Daishi5]

This is one area where I think we are missing too much critical information. 

• The Listeners songs say that the Stormfather (who they call the Rider) is a traitor because he chose to protect humans instead of listeners, why, protect from what, and how?
• The listeners also view the spren as traitors for bonding humans, and one of their songs say they are broth while men are meat.  How did this happen when the listeners and the spren are native to roshar but humans are not?
• What did Gavilar mean when he said they would be Radiant and Vibrant?  Vibrant is a really odd word choice here, considering that the listeners call the closest form to the slave dull form.  Vibrant really does not seem like a word to be related to Odium.  
• Desolations of the past nearly wiped out civilization each time.  Dalinar says that they show the people as primitive, Taln's speech seems to imply that he expected to come back to a human society at a stone age level lacking even bronze tools.  Yet, Gavilar was a son of Honor who hoped to bring about a desolation, and also hoped to leave behind a strong kindom, how can he hope for both?
• Jasnah required years of study to figure out the Parshmen were voidbringers, can we assume that Gavilar made the Parshmen-voidbringer connection without ever being a good scholar?  
• In the WoR, Jasnah points out that just having all the Parshmen walk away would cause a huge crisis for humanity as they lost a huge amount of their slave labor, Kaladin and Shallan reiterate that point.
• If Gavilar does not know they are voidbringers, and he has to know losing so many slaves would cause a crisis for his kingdom, how would this unite his people?
• On the other hand, how could Gavilar figure out the voidbringer connection, and how to reverse the enslavement of the parshmen, and that the parshendi were the key to bringing about the new storm?  In the prologue he seems to know so much.
• The epigraphs seem to indicate that the bondsmith enslaved the voidbringers rather than destroy them.  So it seems that the listeners had already been corrupted by Odium, was their enslavement also protection?
• Desolations are somehow based on the Heralds coming back, what would have happened if the Desolation started while the parshmen were still enslaved?  Would Odium have been prevented from corrupting parshmen? Could he do it anyway?  
• Did the Everstorm actually free the parshmen, they don't seem to speak with the rythms?

[+eveorjoy]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Odium has two meanings. The one you listed, and something that inspires those feelings in others. Brandon has said that both of these meanings apply to the Shard. 

While I agree that this single aspect of the Everstorm is not a bad thing, I don't believe it's the point of the storm at all. 

 

I agree that was not the point of the storm. However, what if this was the only way to free the parshmen? Was there another way? If not, then is it right to leave the parshman as they were just so the humans would be safe?

12 minutes ago, redbishop said:

Also, in point of fact, Gavilar sought to bring back the Parshendi gods, not specifically the Everstorm.

 

Gavilar does mention the storm to Eshonai and intended it to free the parshmen.

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“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

1

1

It is true the storm likely has another purpose. But what if their was no other way? Maybe free the parshmen with the Everstorm, but then encourage them not to return to their Gods somehow. I don't know. We shall see if Eshonai can break free herself.

[Yezrien]

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

It interesting Brandon calls the shard Odium and not anger or hatred. Odium is hatred or disgust at another because of actions they have done. Odium is born from injustice and a desire to bring retribution for evils committed. So in the right context odium is not evil and even necessary.

I think the reason Brandon chose "Odium" instead of "Hatred" is quite simple: it sounds a lot cooler. Latin-based English words sound more ominous and powerful than their Anglo-Saxon counterparts. That's probably why all known Shards have Latin-based names. (Except Autonomy, which is Greek.) 

[+eveorjoy]

 

49 minutes ago, Daishi5 said:

This is one area where I think we are missing too much critical information. 

I agree. This is the reason it is fun to speculate. I maybe wrong, but it is fun to question.

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• The Listeners songs say that the Stormfather (who they call the Rider) is a traitor because he chose to protect humans instead of listeners, why, protect from what, and how?

Right we don't know and can't begin to at this point.

Quote

• The listeners also view the spren as traitors for bonding humans, and one of their songs say they are broth while men are meat.  How did this happen when the listeners and the spren are native to roshar but humans are not?

When humans first came to Roshar the spren found them to be a better source for what they needed.

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• What did Gavilar mean when he said they would be Radiant and Vibrant?  Vibrant is a really odd word choice here, considering that the listeners call the closest form to the slave dull form.  Vibrant really does not seem like a word to be related to Odium.  

I think the Listeners are native to Roshar and made by Adonalsium. Honor, Cultivation, and Odium came later along with the humans. So they were vibrant before Odium. Though, Odium has been associated with red and gold, two vibrant colors. 

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• Desolations of the past nearly wiped out civilization each time.  Dalinar says that they show the people as primitive, Taln's speech seems to imply that he expected to come back to a human society at a stone age level lacking even bronze tools.  Yet, Gavilar was a son of Honor who hoped to bring about a desolation, and also hoped to leave behind a strong kindom, how can he hope for both?

We need to learn more here before we can fully understand Gavilar's intentions. That said the strength of a people is not determined by the level of their technology.

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• Jasnah required years of study to figure out the Parshmen were voidbringers, can we assume that Gavilar made the Parshmen-voidbringer connection without ever being a good scholar?  

This one is easy. Galivar could have been studying this for many years with a team of scholars working for the Sons of Honor and he had visions to show him what it was like in the past. That does not mean he came to the right decisions, but I do believe he knew more than Jasnah who had been studying for only six years all by herself and did not have visions.

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• In the WoR, Jasnah points out that just having all the Parshmen walk away would cause a huge crisis for humanity as they lost a huge amount of their slave labor, Kaladin and Shallan reiterate that point.

So... that makes it right to leave them enslaved? I don't think so. There could have been a better way to do this. Find a way to change the industry to no longer need parshmen or slaves in general. But just because it would be a struggle to end it is not enough of the reason to continue such an evil practice. 

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• If Gavilar does not know they are voidbringers, and he has to know losing so many slaves would cause a crisis for his kingdom, how would this unite his people?

A crisis will unite people if handled the right way. Gavilar assumed he could handle it. We will never know if he was right, but if he had been up to the challenge, yes the crisis would have united his people.

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• On the other hand, how could Gavilar figure out the voidbringer connection, and how to reverse the enslavement of the parshmen, and that the parshendi were the key to bringing about the new storm?  In the prologue he seems to know so much.

This we will need to RAFO as Brandon would say. 

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• The epigraphs seem to indicate that the bondsmith enslaved the voidbringers rather than destroy them.  So it seems that the listeners had already been corrupted by Odium, was their enslavement also protection?

I doubt this because the last legion was able to remain free of Odium. I don't think the parshmen were enslaved for their own good. They may have been enslaved to prevent a desolation, but preventing this natural through terrible cycle might have been a bad thing. It didn't stick and now the humans are more ill-prepared than ever before.

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• Desolations are somehow based on the Heralds coming back, what would have happened if the Desolation started while the parshmen were still enslaved?  Would Odium have been prevented from corrupting parshmen? Could he do it anyway?  

This is another RAFO for us I think. 

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• Did the Everstorm actually free the parshmen, they don't seem to speak with the rythms?

We didn't know about the rhythms until Eshonai's POV. They maybe hearing the rhythms but speaking the language they are accustom too. Those listeners Kaladin saw seem to be in workform, and if they can transform into that I am pretty sure they are hearing the rhythms again. I could be wrong, but that is my guess.

Excellent question. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by eveorjoy

[Dlyol]

1 hour ago, Daishi5 said:

What did Gavilar mean when he said they would be Radiant and Vibrant?  Vibrant is a really odd word choice here, considering that the listeners call the closest form to the slave dull form.  Vibrant really does not seem like a word to be related to Odium.  

I agree vibrant doesn't sound at all like something related to Odium. To my mind it sounds like it relates to the Rhythms in some way. OED gives 'strong or resonant' to define vibrant with regard to sound. I wonder whether previously Listeners could use the Rythmns in some more meaningful way. Perhaps just as humans were Radiant because some of their number physically radiated (Storm)light some of the Listeners could derive power from the Rythmns - presumably requiring the adoption of certain rare forms. 

[+eveorjoy]

1 hour ago, Belzedar said:

I think the reason Brandon chose "Odium" instead of "Hatred" is quite simple: it sounds a lot cooler. Latin-based English words sound more ominous and powerful than their Anglo-Saxon counterparts. That's probably why all known Shards have Latin-based names. (Except Autonomy, which is Greek.) 

He could have called it vexation, fury, wrath, and many other words that just mean hatred. Odium is hatred and disgust. I could be reading too much into it, but that's the fun of speculating. Brandon has said none of the shards are evil.

[echaozh]

3 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

This one is easy. Galivar could have been studying this for many years with a team of scholars working for the Sons of Honor and he had visions to show him what it was like in the past. That does not mean he came to the right decisions, but I do believe he knew more than Jasnah who had been studying for only six years all by herself and did not have visions.

I think Gavilar learned everything from Mr. T's Diagram. They worked together, right?

Edited September 27, 2017 by echaozh
grammar

[+eveorjoy]

 

6 minutes ago, echaozh said:

I think Gavilar learned everything from Mr. T's Diagram. They worked together, right?

Actually it is the other way around.
WoR I-14 Taravangaian, Pg. 916.

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It had worked. Just as the Diagram instructed, Taravangian was king of Jah Keved. He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar has insisted would need to happen if they were to survive. That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Galivar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king's death.

 

 

[Nymeros]

Awakening the Parahmen is absolutely good.

However Odium did not have good intentions when doing this. Im sure he is ompy concerned with kindling their wrath at their enslavement.

[Toaster Retribution]

12 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

He could have called it vexation, fury, wrath, and many other words that just mean hatred. Odium is hatred and disgust. I could be reading too much into it, but that's the fun of speculating. Brandon has said none of the shards are evil.

This is probably because Shards aren't capable of evil. They are not really alive. They are forces with one defining character trait, and act from a vessel which picks them up. A force can't really be evil.

[Lazarus52980]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

A force can't really be evil.

What if it is the force/shard of Evil?  

That might get too philosophical... Can Evil be evil?  

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Lazarus52980 said:

Can Evil be evil?  

Ask Nightblood.

[Lazarus52980]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Ask Nightblood.

That's an interesting point.  If you could convince Nightblood that he was evil... would he attempt to destroy himself?

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Lazarus52980 said:

That's an interesting point.  If you could convince Nightblood that he was evil... would he attempt to destroy himself?

Maybe... that might be the end of his arc, if Brandon wants to write him as a tragic character.