[OB] The Oathgate Deadzone, and Imminent Horneater Genocide

[Yezrien]

1 minute ago, Knight Oblivion said:

While I like and agree that this theory could be, at least, partially correct, I don't like the boundaries of this "Oathgate Deadzone." It appears that the borders of it closest to Vedenar and Kholinar are too close to them. Basically, it looks like the boundaries are inconsistently applied. As such, I think that the Deadzone borders should be shifted northward and westward and cover much of the Reshi Isles. Well, that would be assuming that the apparent protection radius is in the middle/larger range. Assuming that the distance from Kholinar and Vedenar is how much land the Radiants can protect from an Oathgate, then the OD (I like the acronym) would be expanded to include various "No-man" lands between the various Oathgates.

Excellent point. I just wanted to illustrate the basic concept, so I haphazardly outlined the largest possible land area that doesn't contain any oathgates, but that doesn't really correspond to the area that would be outside the Radiants' zone of control.

A better way to illustrate it might be to expand the circles around the oathgates to a [not-too-arbitrarily-selected] "radius of reasonable response time." That would show us which areas the Radiants would really have trouble reaching in a hurry, and it would probably correspond more to your suggested OD. Of course, travel times would vary with the terrain, so they couldn't really be perfect circles.

[Varenus]

10 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

While I like and agree that this theory could be, at least, partially correct, I don't like the boundaries of this "Oathgate Deadzone." It appears that the borders of it closest to Vedenar and Kholinar are too close to them. Basically, it looks like the boundaries are inconsistently applied. As such, I think that the Deadzone borders should be shifted northward and westward and cover much of the Reshi Isles. Well, that would be assuming that the apparent protection radius is in the middle/larger range. Assuming that the distance from Kholinar and Vedenar is how much land the Radiants can protect from an Oathgate, then the OD (I like the acronym) would be expanded to include various "No-man" lands between the various Oathgates.

I agree, especially considering this vision from Dalinar:

Quote

The Lake Fortress[edit]

In Words of Radiance, Dalinar had a vision in which he saw himself as a soldier, marching with several other soldiers through a shallow body of water that he believed to be the Purelake. They were heading towards a massive fortress, which was not known to exist in the Purelake in modern times, and looking for a spren acting unusual. They mention that Sja-anat made spren act odd. Dalinar saw a spren with red eyes, followed shortly by another, larger spren which animated a massive piece of stone, which ripped itself free of the lakebed to attack them. The soldiers mentioned that the beast was a Thunderclast.

It takes place in the pure lake(which is just outside the Deadzone and actually inside the Nexus of Transition), they are hunting a strange spren manipulated by one of the Unmade, and there is a sinister fortress looming in the distance that is suspiciously absent in the present era. possibly soulcast, but what if the voidbringers transitioned it with them from the cognitive realm? If I remember correctly, Dalinar says it looks like obsidian, the same material that the floor is made of in Shadesmar. It could be similar to (Mistborn Secret history spoiler):

Spoiler

The Ire's fortress in the cognitive realm, but the voidbringers are doing the reverse? Bringing objects from shadesmar into the physical realm instead of bringing physical stones into the cognitive?  

A Voidbringer naval base?

[CaptainRyan]

30 minutes ago, Varenus said:

A Voidbringer naval base?

The Purelake is wayyyyy too shallow for a navy to operate in imo. Perhaps there are navigable channels or something but remember, Dalinar and Co. are literally walking around in the Purelake. It is very shallow.

Edited September 25, 2017 by CaptainRyan

[Varenus]

5 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

The Purelake is wayyyyy to shallow for a navy to operate in imo. Perhaps there are navigable channels or something but remember, Dalinar and Co. are literally walking around in the Purelake. It is very shallow.

Deep enough for spren and thunderclasts it seems.

Seriously though, you are right. Got confused between Reshi sea and Purelake.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Varenus

[Shig]

Just now, CaptainRyan said:

The Purelake is wayyyyy to shallow for a navy to operate in imo. Perhaps there are navigable channels or something but remember, Dalinar and Co. are literally walking around in the Purelake. It is very shallow.

 I get the feeling that its actually a lot deeper than we expect. Its a layer of ground with no more than 6 ft of water, but that water recedes during high storms, just like plants do. I bet there is a deeper pool of water under the broken surface, which is displaced back up when something (i'm thinking a large mass of plants) moves back in the place after the highstorm passes

[GeneralStu]

35 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

The Purelake is wayyyyy too shallow for a navy to operate in imo. Perhaps there are navigable channels or something but remember, Dalinar and Co. are literally walking around in the Purelake. It is very shallow.

Talk about littoral waters. Now if only they had hover craft. Or swamp boats. 

[CaptainRyan]

39 minutes ago, Shig said:

 I get the feeling that its actually a lot deeper than we expect. Its a layer of ground with no more than 6 ft of water, but that water recedes during high storms, just like plants do. I bet there is a deeper pool of water under the broken surface, which is displaced back up when something (i'm thinking a large mass of plants) moves back in the place after the highstorm passes

While there may be hidden depths to the Purelake that will not change the naval situation. That broken layer at the top is too shallow to support traditional sailing vessels. As @GeneralStu pointed out, there are other options but, as far as I am aware, there are no large watercraft that could ferry large numbers of troops around the Purelake.

[Varenus]

10 minutes ago, GeneralStu said:

Talk about littoral waters. Now if only they had hover craft. Or swamp boats. 

It is not out outside the realm of possibility considering fabrail tech, surgebinding, and whatever powers voidbinding grants. 

6 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

While there may be hidden depths to the Purelake that will not change the naval situation. That broken layer at the top is too shallow to support traditional sailing vessels. As @GeneralStu pointed out, there are other options but, as far as I am aware, there are no large watercraft that could ferry large numbers of troops around the Purelake.

If the fortress was close to present day Marabithia there could be a river or outlet that leads to the deeper Reshi sea. Though I am unsure of the dimensions of Marabithia or how deep the water is near its shores. 

The semantics of what constitutes a navy and the Purelake's depth aside, A Voidbringer fortress in the Purelake seems like pretty strong fortification. The waters of the pure lake make conventional armies somewhat vulnerable, really only Radiants and squires would have sufficient mobility to handle threats. Spren and thunderclasts are not inhibited by the Purelake(Midnight Essence and some voidforms might also fit into this category). The two closest Oathgates are to the South and West and there is a third gate to the North further beyond the Reshi Sea, but the East and Northeast are completely open. Do voidbringers need to eat? Because there plenty of fish to eat in the Purelake.

[CaptainRyan]

4 minutes ago, Varenus said:

A Voidbringer fortress in the Purelake seems like pretty strong fortification. The waters of the pure lake make conventional armies somewhat vulnerable, really only Radiants and squires would have sufficient mobility to handle threats.

I completely agree here. Can you imagine setting up a war camp in the middle of a shallow lake? *shudder*

1 hour ago, Varenus said:

there is a sinister fortress looming in the distance that is suspiciously absent in the present era

My take on the fortress is that is was the Radiant's fortress. The reason I say this is the spren they were hunting was said to be a "scout" who brought an "escort". I think the enemy was scouting out the Radiant fortress for an attack, perhaps? The lack of a fortress in modern times could mean it was overrun and destroyed.

[Varenus]

2 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I completely agree here. Can you imagine setting up a war camp in the middle of a shallow lake? *shudder*

My take on the fortress is that is was the Radiant's fortress. The reason I say this is the spren they were hunting was said to be a "scout" who brought an "escort". I think the enemy was scouting out the Radiant fortress for an attack, perhaps? The lack of a fortress in modern times could mean it was overrun and destroyed.

Yeah, the fortress might have just been a Radiant stronghold. Even if we ignore the whole "scout"/"escort" thing, why and how would a relatively small group of humans be so close to  a Voidbringer fortress? They said to hunt down a spren/unmade, but I think that we have established that attacking such a fortified location with so few would be tantamount to suicide. Also, that radiant was most likely a Dustbringer (glowing red armor, described as water having no purchase on the radiant-surge of friction(?)) so they did not fly all the way into the purelake. Either they had to capture this particular spren or the Stronghold belongs to the Radiants. 

The only thing in the actual text that supports the Voidbringer fortress theory is the fact that the fortress seems a little too dark for the Radiants to have made, but that is far from definitive. 

[17th Splinter]

47 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I completely agree here. Can you imagine setting up a war camp in the middle of a shallow lake? *shudder*

My take on the fortress is that is was the Radiant's fortress. The reason I say this is the spren they were hunting was said to be a "scout" who brought an "escort". I think the enemy was scouting out the Radiant fortress for an attack, perhaps? The lack of a fortress in modern times could mean it was overrun and destroyed.

I don't think we know that it isn't there. I remember a quote from the WoK when Dalinar is talking about traveling to the purelake and asking to go to the center. I believe that they said something along the lines of " why would you want to go there? There is nothing there". And considering that even the purelakers religion involves lying to their "god" I don't trust that. For all we know there could be another Urithiru out there

[Steeldancer]

20 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

The Purelake is wayyyyy too shallow for a navy to operate in imo. Perhaps there are navigable channels or something but remember, Dalinar and Co. are literally walking around in the Purelake. It is very shallow.

Unless... they had navy of little paper boats. 

[CaptainRyan]

8 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Unless... they had navy of little paper boats. 

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I love this theory. Look at the placement? They encircle the "deadzone". 

I think the reason there are 10 has to do with the holiness of 10 on Roshar, but also to pull troops from key places to the front lines, not necessarily to move people to different areas of the globe. 

[Fulminato]

On 25/9/2017 at 10:15 PM, Varenus said:

Deep enough for spren and thunderclasts it seems.

Seriously though, you are right. Got confused between Reshi sea and Purelake.

the thunderclasts is made of the lakebed rock, and a spren can be pretty small (pattern squeeze himself in a keyhole a couple of time).

[Frostlander]

6 hours ago, Fulminato said:

the thunderclasts is made of the lakebed rock, and a spren can be pretty small (pattern squeeze himself in a keyhole a couple of time).

And Syl can squeeze under doors...

[Farnsworth]

We don't know how Oathgates are made. Maybe there can only be 10 max, because they are each created by a Herald. If it takes a Shard blade to make them work, does it take an Honorblafe to create them? If that's the case the Oathgates would be arranged in the best tactical manner. That means the Horneater Peaks are easiest to defend. After all, if it were a simple matter of making more Oathgates, they could have put one right on the peaks.

[Yezrien]

I was looking at some of the new WoK annotations, and I found something that might be relevant to this conversation. But it's extremely speculative, and based on old non-canon materials, so it might all be meaningless. I am not offering this as proof on any theory. It's just a speculative interpretation of some of the old materials.

Spoiler

Look at this early map of Roshar.

There's a big feature that we don't see on the later maps: a big chunk of land stretching off to the north, extending off  the page into unmapped territories. That northern projection is occupied by a country called Kavenar, which has two interesting landmarks: the city of Rashkah Warden, and the High Watchings, presumably a mountain range. Those names are telling. They both imply watchfulnness and guardianship. What is Rashkah Warden warding off? What are the High Watchings watching for?

My guess is Voidbringers. 

I conjecture that, in this version of Roshar, Voidbringer attacks came mainly from somewhere in the north. The nation of Kavenar existed to scout the north, always watching for signs of a voidbringer incursion and a new desolation. And Alethkar/Alethela, the military powerhouse of ancient Roshar, is positioned like a shield between the big peninsulas of civilization and the enemy to the north. 

Obviously a lot has changed since this map was drawn. For all we know, the fact that the ancient Alethi were a warrior nation and KR central might not have been true back in 2003. Everything in this spoiler box could be pure nonsense.

But I think the design of that map supports the premise that Voidbringer invasions tended to originate in a specific region of Roshar.