Belzedar

[OB] The Oathgate Deadzone, and Imminent Horneater Genocide

43 posts in this topic

I like it, there definitely has to be a reason why a large part of the continent is cut off from the transportation network. 

I do have a question though. Do spren need a perpendicularity to cross into the Physical Realm? From what we've seen, most of Odium's forces will be splinters. We've had no indication so far that spren have to use a perpendicularity to cross over into the physical realm. In fact we see the opposite being the case, when anyone attracts spren. As I understand,  spren  that are nearby are drawn more into the physical until they are visible, on the spot. 

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18 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I do have a question though. Do spren need a perpendicularity to cross into the Physical Realm? From what we've seen, most of Odium's forces will be splinters. We've had no indication so far that spren have to use a perpendicularity to cross over into the physical realm. In fact we see the opposite being the case, when anyone attracts spren. As I understand,  spren  that are nearby are drawn more into the physical until they are visible, on the spot. 

Good point. My thinking is that the spren we've seen so far are still mainly in the cognitive realm. They haven't fully crossed over, which is why they're insubstantial, and can't interact with the world directly. And they're like that because they just phased across the boundary, without using a perpendicularity. But when spren (like voidspren) do use a perpendicularity, they'll bring all their investiture with them, becoming physical, substantial creatures. Like the midnight essence.

(Notice that Lift can physically touch a spren because she's straddling the boundary, just like they are.)

I think about exhaustionspren and Ivory, both of which are much bigger in Shadesmar than they are on the physical plane. If they came to the physical via shardpool, they'd be just as big here as they are in Shadesmar.

Edit: I'd theorize that the memory loss some spren describe is a consequence of the casual phasing. If Syl had come over via perpendicularity, she would have been intelligent and knowledgeable from the start. This raises question of why spren don't just come over using the perpendicularity. And I'd guess it's one of two things: either they have to stay mainly in the cognitive in order to form nahel bonds, or there are voidbringers guarding the shardpool on the Shadesmar side.

Edited by Belzedar
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2 hours ago, Belzedar said:

The only tangible proof I could find is this: Herdazians and Horneaters both make their homes inside the Deadzone. The two human races descended from Listeners just happen to live inside the region with the worst Oathgate service. Their presence suggests this region was once home to large Listener populations, which I think would confirm my logic: Oathgates, no; Voidbringers, yes. Throw in a perpendicularity, and it can't all be a coincidence, can it?

It can, obviously. But maybe it's not!

This might be the reason the Alethi and Vedens are so warlike. Their ancestors were living on the front lines. They were the first line of defense when a desolation came, and the last ones fighting to retake their lost territory as it drew to a close.

I like this theory a lot, and intuitively it makes sense to me. The novels to date are primarily focused on Alethkar and Jah Keved--with the intention of spreading outwards from there--and you would want to start the story at the front lines.

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But spren do cross fully into the physical. Thats where Shardblades come from. It doesnt seem to require a perpendicularity either. I like the theory with regards to horneaters and herdazians not having oathgates because they were allied with the enemy but I think the shardpool really is coincidense. Also remember that according to Rock the horneaters moved to the peaks recently, possibly to escape post desolation reprisals. Cause and effect may go in the opposite direction.

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5 minutes ago, physicskid said:

But spren do cross fully into the physical. Thats where Shardblades come from. It doesnt seem to require a perpendicularity either.

True, but these are obviously a tiny minority of spren, and they have to go through a lot of trouble to do it. Any who can't form a nahel bond would have to use a perpendicularity. (As would any who wish to manifest physically, but don't want to be tied to a human.)

5 minutes ago, physicskid said:

[...] but I think the shardpool really is coincidense. Also remember that according to Rock the horneaters moved to the peaks recently, possibly to escape post desolation reprisals. Cause and effect may go in the opposite direction.

Also true, but I doubt the Horneaters crossed all of Roshar in their search for a home. They may not be indigenous to the Peaks, but I suspect they were indigenous to the Deadzone, just like Herdazians.

Edited by Belzedar
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the oathgate are tied to the silver kingdoms (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Silver_Kingdoms).

alethela and valhav are quite different from alethkar and jah keved, i suppose jasnah is wrong and the oathgate of rishir will be in the north coast (and it will fill the gap). we know most of the 'soldier' of the silver kingdoms are in alethela, it will make possibile a quick response if anytihing happen inside them.

Edited by Fulminato
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YOU MUST POST OB SPOILERS IN THE OATHBRINGER BOARD.

I will start restricting posting on people very soon.

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2 hours ago, Fulminato said:

the oathgate are tied to the silver kingdoms (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Silver_Kingdoms).

alethela and valhav are quite different from alethkar and jah keved, i suppose jasnah is wrong and the oathgate of rishir will be in the north coast (and it will fill the gap). we know most of the 'soldier' of the silver kingdoms are in alethela, it will make possibile a quick response if anytihing happen inside them.

Why do you think that Jasnah will be wrong? I would have thought that the map of the Silver Kingdoms is good evidence that she is correct.

See my earlier post about this for a more detailed explanation:

 

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7 hours ago, Belzedar said:

It's a weakness the enemy can and will exploit. If the Radiants were smart, they would have filled in this gap by building an Oathgate out there, perhaps in modern day Elanar or Northgrip. 

Image result for both is good

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It is also possible that they could not build oathgates, but their construction was something not repeatable. In which case they didn't put one in the northeast because of reasons. Maybe because the alethi and veden can take care for themselves, maybe because they had good highways and so could rally troops by foot fast enough.

In general, if building an oathgate was so simple, I'd assume they'd have made more than 10. And if destroying an oathgate was so simple, I'd assume more would ahve been lost.

In fact, the strongest refutation to your theory is that there are 10 platform around urithiru. If they ever built an 11th oathgate around northgrip, there would have been the platform; once the gate was destroyed, the platform should have remained.

Also, even if your idea was correct, making an oathgate in northgrip would have made perfect tactical sense: it's just as far from the horneater peaks as vedenar or kholinar, and it would allow to open another front. In fact, if I was planning against such an invasion coming from the shardpool, I'd make an oathgate in one of the islands in the reshi sea: easy to defend, but within striking distance of the coast. Now I only have to leave a small contingent of troops to protect that oathgate, but the enemy has to put sooldiers everywhere around the coast to repel possible strikes.

Note, I'm not saying your theory has no merit; it may or may not be true. I am looking for counterarguments for the sake of scholarship

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In Dalinar's first vision (that we see, where he battles the Midnight Essence), the Radiant lady states that the Knights live in Urithuru and in cities across Alethela.

I'd argue that the "Deadzone" doesn't have oathgates because it was flush with Radiants, and the other nations needed oathgates because Radiants only lived in Urithuru and Alethela (at least during the 8th epoch).

Doesn't mean the Voidbringers can't use it as a staging area now though.

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23 hours ago, Belzedar said:

Well, you know what just happens to be in the Deadzone? The Horneater Peaks. And what's in the Horneater peaks? A shardpool. The only known stationary perpendicularity on Roshar. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

I think... if I was sending an army of monsters to invade Roshar, I'd send that army through Shadesmar. And the easiest way to get them into the physical realm is through that perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks.

Shadesmar.thumb.jpg.fc194be954c8b2c2bae97e45fd40ed9c.jpg

Interestingly enough, on the OTHER side, in the Cognitive Realm, there's a perfect staging area of solid ground from where enemy troops could congregate before pushing through into the Physical Realm.

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I don't think there can be an Oathgate in Kurth if the one in Rall Elorim is confirmed because they were both part of ancient Iri. Rishir/Herdaz would have its own Oathgate.

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5 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I don't think there can be an Oathgate in Kurth if the one in Rall Elorim is confirmed because they were both part of ancient Iri. Rishir/Herdaz would have its own Oathgate.

Kurth was in Rishir. 

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Just now, ScavellTane said:

I don't think there can be an Oathgate in Kurth if the one in Rall Elorim is confirmed because they were both part of ancient Iri. Rishir/Herdaz would have its own Oathgate.

If you look very closely at the Silver Kingdoms map, the island that Kurth is on is brown, like Rishir; not reddish like Iri.

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4 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I don't think there can be an Oathgate in Kurth if the one in Rall Elorim is confirmed because they were both part of ancient Iri. Rishir/Herdaz would have its own Oathgate.

the island of kurth is part of rishir (it is colored with a darker shade of brown)

17 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Why do you think that Jasnah will be wrong? I would have thought that the map of the Silver Kingdoms is good evidence that she is correct.

See my earlier post about this for a more detailed explanation:

 

tactical and logistic wise kurth is an awful place for the oathgate, way too close to the iri oathgate, in the end of the archipelagos and in the opposite position of the main continetal land of the kingdom. 

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Ok, didn't notice that. Guess it just didn't make sense to me for Rishir to claim an island so far away as its own.

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3 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the island of kurth is part of rishir (it is colored with a darker shade of brown)

tactical and logistic wise kurth is an awful place for the oathgate, way too close to the iri oathgate, in the end of the archipelagos and in the opposite position of the main continetal land of the kingdom. 

Greatshell island?? Nah, unlikely considering what Oathgates need to work.

Edited by ScavellTane
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Just now, Fulminato said:

tactical and logistic wise kurth is an awful place for the oathgate, way too close to the iri oathgate, in the end of the archipelagos and in the opposite position of the main continetal land of the kingdom. 

I don't know. The Rall Ellorim oathgate wouldn't provide access to the Reshi Sea, which might be an important battleground. Kurth could be the HQ for the naval defense of much of Roshar's northern coast. Building it on the west side of the island might look like an odd choice, but I see three potential reasons: 

  1. more efficient trade with Iri during peacetime.
  2. highstorm defense
  3. better defensive position against voidbringer naval strikes from the east (which my theory assumes is where they'd come from).
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29 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

I don't know. The Rall Ellorim oathgate wouldn't provide access to the Reshi Sea, which might be an important battleground. Kurth could be the HQ for the naval defense of much of Roshar's northern coast. Building it on the west side of the island might look like an odd choice, but I see three potential reasons: 

  1. more efficient trade with Iri during peacetime.
  2. highstorm defense
  3. better defensive position against voidbringer naval strikes from the east (which my theory assumes is where they'd come from).

efficent trade? with a big chunk of the land half continent away, it will be take weeks to go to kurth from the land in the eastern fringe. you need to have some goods to trade for actual trading. the island of kurth isn't so large, for a naval force you need not only some ports to hold the ship, but material to build them, food for the sailort, etc... a location in the east land of rishir is for sure a better place for them. the position don't make sense for me, but is strange a island so close to iri to be part of rishir (and far away form any other rishir island/land), so it can be, but the strange location must had some external explanation.

alethela is the home of the main body of the KR, and any other military force, and your region is half in alethela. i find high improbable any 'staging ground' of the enemy can be in the place of the main defender's kingdom.

PS: there is a logic error if you try to explain a teory with a result of that theory

 

Edited by Fulminato
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I assumed that Jasnah had visited all the Oathgates before going to the Shattered Plains. If she only 'thought' Kurth had an Oathgate then she might not have gone to Rishir to actually look for the Oathgates.

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44 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

PS: there is a logic error if you try to explain a teory with a result of that theory

Those three points weren't supposed to justify the whole theory. They were just to explain why there might be an oathgate in Kurth.

At present, we have no reason to think there isn't an oathgate in Kurth. You've made some interesting points about the resources and economics of that region, but I have to assume that Jasnah knows the region better than any of us, and has good reasons to think there's an oathgate there.

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While I like and agree that this theory could be, at least, partially correct, I don't like the boundaries of this "Oathgate Deadzone." It appears that the borders of it closest to Vedenar and Kholinar are too close to them. Basically, it looks like the boundaries are inconsistently applied. As such, I think that the Deadzone borders should be shifted northward and westward and cover much of the Reshi Isles. Well, that would be assuming that the apparent protection radius is in the middle/larger range. Assuming that the distance from Kholinar and Vedenar is how much land the Radiants can protect from an Oathgate, then the OD (I like the acronym) would be expanded to include various "No-man" lands between the various Oathgates.

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I like your theory! Rock send a word to his family on the Peaks, but didn't hear back from them, so we have foreshadowing for something going horribly wrong there.

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