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My thoughts on Trell (Full Spoilers)


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By Scadrial Era 2, is there any obscure possibility that Devotion, Dominion, or Ambition might have been resurrected?

Also: autonomy doesn't mean "no order," it means giving the law to yourself. So it's still about law, or at least a balance of law and freedom.

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15 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Also: autonomy doesn't mean "no order," it means giving the law to yourself. So it's still about law, or at least a balance of law and freedom.

Quote
  • a self-governing country or region.
    plural noun: autonomies
  • freedom from external control or influence; independence.

It's not related to the law or order at all. 

Self governance, independence, freedom to make your own choices without external influence/pressure. 

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11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's not related to the law or order at all. 

Self governance, independence, freedom to make your own choices without external influence/pressure. 

Autonomy = auto nomos, literally "the law from oneself." It became popular due to Immanuel Kant's philosophy of "the will as a law unto itself."

EDIT: I mean what do you think "governance" is about? Chaotic anarchy, lawlessness? Or order?

Edited by Ripheus23
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16 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Autonomy = auto nomos, literally "the law from oneself." It became popular due to Immanuel Kant's philosophy of "the will as a law unto itself."

I understand the root. But in application it has no relevance to law unless you're using the word exceptionally loosely, or unless your using it to express the idea of self governance up to and including freedom from law. 

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What concept of law are you working with?

EDIT: Honestly, there is no article or book about moral, personal, political, international, or w/e autonomy, that I have ever read, that implied that autonomy was compatible with chaos more than with order.

Edited by Ripheus23
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10 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

What concept of law are you working with?

The basic idea of rules of conduct. 

11 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Honestly, there is no article or book about moral, personal, political, international, or w/e autonomy, that I have ever read, that implied that autonomy was compatible with chaos more than with order.

Why do either need apply? It would be up to the individual. 

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15 hours ago, Calderis said:

It would be up to the individual. 

Definitely this. Autonomy doesn't stand for law or chaos, just the choice to choose between them. It's the ultimate libertarian shard.

I think in our world, true autonomy is pretty rare because the social contract is naturally restricting (read: a good thing), so it rarely represents chaos BECAUSE human society has been more inherently ordered than chaotic for the past 5,000 years.

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Most analyses of autonomy do imply that an agent can make an autonomous choice to become chaotic, so to speak, but that this results in a loss of autonomy (e.g. as in addiction). So the concept has connotations of rational order and self-legislation as a matter of its consequences as much as the derivation of the corresponding word.

Also, this is Sanderson we're talking about, here, so I'm fairly sure he's using the word "autonomy" in the academic sense.

EDIT: Moreover, since the issue is reconciling the orderliness of the Set with the freedom-loving personality we suppose Bavadin to have, I would point out that mathematics is a perfect example of a "free creation" with absolute order built into it. That is, mathematicians freely expand upon the ordinary-person baseline of counting to come up with the transfinite order, and so on and on.

Edited by Ripheus23
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

SPOILERS AHEAD!!

Some thoughts I've sat on for quite some time apply to this very topic.  

1.) When referring to faceless immortals,  it makes me think of the ancient singers, turned broken souls, durring the desolations over the thousands of years.  (Sanderson said that the books are supposed to be taking place chronologically.  A lot can have happened in those thousands of years that we didnt hear about, besides the final empire, of which we only got the tail end.)  At this point in their existence, these parshendi ghosts, are faceless, and immortal.  With that in mind, consider that their eyes glow when they take a listeners body.  So did the eyes of the jerk that blew up "Edworm," and before he killed Suit he didn't seem to care that he was about to die, just like with the parshendi bodies that keep getting used up like they don't matter when possessed on Roshar.  

In connection to this there are also the svrakiss that are said to possess the dead as a disguise as means to affect the living.  (Theoretically they too could be in cahoots as "faceless immortals.")  Considering that all a dead soul has to do to be locked into the cognitive realm before crossing over (*cough*kelsier*cough) is touch raw divinity, it stands to reason that a shard could collect a select few souls before the crossing is complete, and use them as servants.  

(Its currently Feb.10th.2019.  I'm on my second run through of all things Cosmere.  I'm in the middle of Shadows of Self.  In chapter 8, Harmony himself refers to the Kandra as the faceless immortals, so there's that.  However I still have this feeling of reservation that they may not be the only ones being referenced in the Cosmere with that term.)* 

Given all the many possibilities for who they actually are,  I wouldn't be surprised all the investitures could accomplish the task of filling that profile, and more so using multiple investiture.  

I'd been considering that the true void bringers were the humans all along since about, I think, early on the second stormlight archive.  The reason being that the parshendi would change form as it were needed, and the "parshmen" were formless and enslaved.  Something about that didn't sit right with me given the war between parshendi and humans. Additionally saying parsh-man out loud sounded to me like I was saying, "part-man" as in only being partially a man, a "partial-man...parsh-man" and it clicked that they were in fact missing their emotions, or partial beings as it were, void inside.  

Back to the death of Suit, if you take all that into account, (the svrakiss possesions, the ancient parshendi possesions, the hollowed out personalities, existing beyond death) I'm betting that possessing a human with an ancient parshendi isn't out of the realm of possibility.  Taking into account that Hemalurgy allows investature where there once was none, this seems even more possible.  Then consider what it could mean to potentially accomplish Hemalurgy with a spike carved from a gemheart, and we now have unknown possibilities.  In any case I'm pretty sure the term faceless imortal is a reference to some ghost like soul or the nother.  

2.) I'm not entirety sure how, though my thoughts want to sway toward the eyespike having something to do with it, if it really is him...it appears that Kesier returned to the physical realm somehow.  However, his appearing to the southern scadrialings, without hair, makes it sound to me more like he got a kandra to do it for him, and the eyespike simply served another purpose.  I think its likely that the spike is what gave the kandra the ability to make the warmth medallions.  I also think Saze was partly involved.  As Harmony it would make sense for Sazed to use a portion of Ruins investiture, the spike, and a kandra, which is a result of Ruins investiture, to preserve the people of the South.  

3.) If you think of autonomy in the sense of, 'acting independently,' and then that Sanderson said the essence of each shard exists everywhere but the "holder" of each can't comprehensively reach all of it, it would make sense that Autonomy could very well be giving orders to to The Set with the idea in her head that they take her order and act independently.  Leaving her alone for the most part to do as she wishes. Additionally it is in a sense, a form of control, to give very precise instruction and organization, (which sounds like The Set,) and with precise instruction and organization one could evoke autonomy by not having need of further management.  The original personality of the shard holder should be taken into account as well given that residual subconscious cognitive represensation is prevalent in the cognitive realm, so it would stand to reason that to some degree the personality's interpretation of a given held shard would like to be come into play.  

With the extra large panel for the introduction of the character, and almost solely for presentation of the character, of Trell in White Sand...plus the fact that Autonomy is creating Avatars, the theory that the letter to Hoid was from Autonomy, the connection between Trell and The Set, and the theory that Autonomy is on Taldain, Taldains cosmere location with Harmony stating that something worrisome is occurring that he can't quite see...all of this makes me think that Trell is Autonomy.  Autonomy's letter to Hoid also references Hoid coming back to 'these waters' and in the cognitive real a landmass would be depicted as a body of water.  Therein with Taldain being a large amount of sand that in the cognitive realm would probably be mostly water or some variance of it given sand is solid, then with Hoid traveling from one planet to the next via the cognitive realm, his initial arrivals there would be not to place primarily of land, but of water.  The notable chinks in this weave are that If the letter to Hoid is Autonomy, then why say 'we' instead of 'I' given that it states the need for being left alone, and why expressly state the lack of concern for odium, and whats with The Set using possessed bodies similar to that of Roshar's depiction.  It makes me think that Autonomy may in fact be a dual shard that we haven't been made aware of, similar to Harmony, but I vaguely remember someone asking Brandon if a dual shard holder had existed before Sazed and he answered no that he was now the first.  If you include the Trelegism religion with it's significance in division of night and day, in Tandem with the idea that Autonomy, as a dual shard and as considered to be on Taldain, that would explain the lack of fear of Odium and the 'we' aspect of the letter.  It would make sense that Leras would also try to keep track of his fellow shard siblings as fictitious religions in his worlds past, as a form of preserving the knowledge and as a subtle warning to his children as it were.  

4&5.) If possible though, that Autonomy is a dual shard, and we're just waiting for someone to ask good ol' Branders the right questions and not get RAFO'd, I'd say that maybe its similar to when Sazed thrust one hand each into the two shards, and similar to how dominion and devotion are in coexistence on Sel, so it's possible that two people tried to claim the same two shards at the same time, and now all four are locked into the cohabitation they are in.  Adds to the effective use of "we" in the letter to Hoid as well, while technically not being a single individual dual shard wielder, thus allowing for Brandon to flat out say 'no, Sazed's the first,' without having to lie.  It then makes me think that just like Preservation and Ruin were opposing forces, that the other 14 are also, in some manner, each distinct opposites in sets of two.  To this I also think that there may have been a pattern to the 8 sets of two shards, or 4 sets of four, just as there were with the original 16 metals having half internal effects on the body, and half external effects from the body, which could have been the spark that brought Leras to obsession over the thousands of years with 'preserving' the devine knowledge revolving around the number 16.  Given the 9 or so shards we've been told of specifically so far, and my theory of pairs or groupings, it might be possible to cobble a generalized working of what the last ones might end up being.  That would give us a direction for working out who else might be pulling what strings they can.    

6.) The Set are also falling kinda close to the category of 'reletive to 16' with their insistence on naming their seatholders after grouping descriptors, and they might be after all sixteen original shards/powers as a panultimate endgame.  Which brings me to questions I'm going to have to perpetually dig for if no one knows the answers yet. 

Is Sazed's power solidified as a single entity permanently as we now know it to be that of Harmony?  Will the two original powers be available separately if for some reason Sazed is downed should there happen to be another clash of power like that of Ati and Vin?  What would it take to separate the powers/shards when if-Adonals forbid-they be stripped from their current holder and not be immediately apart?  Could Adonalsium be a part of a greater whole given the ability to topple the original holder of the 16 shards?  Knowing 'god' was killed to create the shards, then how high and or low does the tier ladder stretch?  

 

 (There's even an actual after life that we know next to nothing about; where does that fit into all of this.)  

 

(My original statement that I replaced:) 

*Also a possible type of faceless imortal, the kandra, are within most respects relative to the Cosmere, both, faceless, and immortal.  

Edited by agreatmemory
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