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My thoughts on Trell (Full Spoilers)


Art

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59 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The big challenge in assigning a new Shard to Trell is that we know the mystery metal is from a Shard we know:

Source

Hmm... that may be problematic. I do not wish to be seen as reaching, but it is possible that the metal is from a shard we know but who is not Trell. Trell could be a shard we do know, but the "order/perfection" motif is so strongly in the work that I'm hesitant to discard it as evidence to who Trell is (though I suppose it's possible Trell is only manipulating anti-Harmony sentiment). None of the names of other shards we know strike me as necessarily having an intent that would result in this type of "controlled" pattern. Everything, from the motives of the antagonists to the conflicts the lead has faced, would tie very nicely together if it is related to Trell's intent, though perhaps I'm looking to tie it up too neatly. And then, it all could be evidence of Trell's intent, but maybe I've interpreted it as being towards "order" when it should be something else. 

Edited by Art
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The thing is, there is a Shard we know whose Intent already nicely fits with what we see happening on Scadrial and that's Autonomy, which we didn't know by name at that point but we'd been told of them by way of the Way of Kings epigraphs in which we learn that Hoid has a grudge against two of the Vessels. One is Rayse (holding Odium) and the other is Bavadin, who was later revealed to be the Vessel of Autonomy.

There are other possibilities as well, but they generally involve a combination of Shards that we know. Odium/Autonomy together for example, or if you really want to go with the 'order' concept we already know of a matching Intent: Dominion.

EDIT: Oh, just saw these are your first posts. Welcome to the Shard!

Edited by Weltall
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Also if a lot of stuffs seem to point to Authonomy.

I proposed somewhere (it was an old topic) that Dominion could be a candidate. Sure, as far as we know he is not in a situation where he could manipulate things but his Investiture could be exploited by others (mortals or Shards) to be put in use for their objectives.

By the way, our knowledge on Dominion's status could be good no more. A lot of things could happen during centuries....But I find this unlikely for the AU's essays

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@Steeldancer @Yata

I agree with with how much of Trell points to Autonomy/Bavadin and I think that's most likely... But the "Faceless Immortal" of the set makes me question that still. 

It says that they've given up on Scadrial because it's technological development can no longer be "controlled" 

That sounds more Dominion than Autonomy. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

@Steeldancer @Yata

I agree with with how much of Trell points to Autonomy/Bavadin and I think that's most likely... But the "Faceless Immortal" of the set makes me question that still. 

It says that they've given up on Scadrial because it's technological development can no longer be "controlled" 

That sounds more Dominion than Autonomy. 

Why did you mention me? I hadn't even commented on this thread yet:P

I had this weird idea that wax never talked to bleeder using spikes, it was only Autonomy. The idea seems to work. Only when they talk actually does bleeder reveal anything regarding stuff only lessie would know. 

So yeah, I'm a fan of the autonomy thing. 

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10 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Why did you mention me? I hadn't even commented on this thread yet:P

Because I'm not awake yet, and reading all of your comments today, my brain just assumed I was still speaking at you when I meant to ping @Toaster Retribution.

Sorry Steel. 

Please read my previous post Toaster. 

I apologize for the confusion. I'm going to go drink some coffee now. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Steeldancer @Yata

I agree with with how much of Trell points to Autonomy/Bavadin and I think that's most likely... But the "Faceless Immortal" of the set makes me question that still. 

It says that they've given up on Scadrial because it's technological development can no longer be "controlled" 

That sounds more Dominion than Autonomy. 

Sounds like Cultivation to me. 

(Where's Joe's thinking emoji when I need it)

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Welcome to the boards @Art!

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I didn't make a proposal. All the other signs fit Autonomy in my mind. That statement is just so discordant it makes me question. 

I agree...I'm on board with all the logic of "Trell" being Autonomy to date, but the red eyed immortal's comment about control, along with the well reasoned thoughts on the organization's hierarchy and titles in the OP here by @Art are making me re-think that stance.

Though, if not Autonomy, then who? Current Known Shards:

 


Shards of Adonalsium
Devotion
Dominion
Preservation
Ruin
Odium
Cultivation
Honor
Endowment
Autonomy
Ambition

Of that list, there are only a few that I can bend/wrap my mind around desiring control as shown in the Set's naming/mathematical/mission statement and the Redeye Immortal's comment: Dominion (pretty obvious, but see below), Preservation (see below), Ambition (see below)

  1. Dominion -
    • Pros: pretty clear that the intent of this Shard is to control everything it can get it's power wrapped around and order it into a pretty thing under it.
      • WoB about metal in bleeder is from 2015, so it had to be a Shard we knew at that point
    • Cons: Vessel is dead and shard is shattered and power blended with Devotion in cognitive
      • Era 2 on Scadrial is a long time after the last seen events on Sel... who know what happened in the interim with the shardic powers there. It's even a long time after Kel first sees the Ire in the Cognitive Realm. Maybe one of them figured out how to take up either Devotion/Dominion like they tried to do to Preservation?
  2. Preservation -
    • Pros: Everything that Ruin and Preservation tell us about the Intent of the Preservation Shard in Era 1 speaks to control and order and stifling, so the Intent is there (ish)
    • Cons: umm, part of Harmony, held by Sazed. So... either he's gone mad and is fighting himself, or... I don't know. 
  3. Ambition - 
    • Pros: Ambitious people don't want rivals, they want to be the best and control how everyone sees them and what everyone else gets to do... 
    • Cons: power shattered by Odium and presumably Vessel killed. We didn't know about Ambition until Arcanum Unbounded in 2016 to my knowledge(and the Coppermind's and supported by this thread:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?/Occam's Razor...

When I think about everything, I think the answer as to lean back to Dominion as "Trell" who is revered by the Set members and has Red Eyed Immortals. Dominion is all about order, and we know the shard, and however improbable, it is possible that the power was separated from Devotion and taken up by someone. Or maybe BS is being sneaky. We know the shard for Bleeder's metal, but maybe there is a new Di-shard called Order and it is the combo of Dominion and Devotion that someone managed to pickup. 

Now.. there is always the idea that has continued to float around of 2 shards collaborating. What is instead of Odium/Autonomy, we have the odd couple of Dominion/Autonomy? 

  • That would explain Paalm's hyper-focus on Freedom, and the Set's hyper-focus on order/control. 
Edited by Green Hoodie Mistborn
final thoughts added
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I'm spitballing here, but a controlled world would, on the surface, seem to be opposite Autonomy's intent. That said, it's been confirmed that Autonomy is protective of the autonomy of HIS world but has no issues in meddling on others, yes? So what if Autonomy, in an effort to protect the autonomy of his world, is attempting to control/manage others who he fears might interfere with it? Perhaps he has had a future sight of the people of Scadrial interfering with his own world, and the rate of progress on Scadrial (towards being spacefaring, which we know is one of Sanderson's intended eras) is what he fears he can't control and so why he's moved from controlling to extinguishing. It doesn't seem to mesh with the Set's organizational naming, though, but perhaps I'm trying to tie the Set too closely to Trell's influence. Eh... I'm still leaning towards the whole Set/Series/Sequence/Suit/Array naming as being connected to Trell in some way. 

On Dominion, is his intent concerned with domination or more of the idea of dominions as in distinctive regions of control? I confess I know very little of him.

While I think Autonomy could certainly work as being Trell, I like the idea of all of the motifs I outlined being more than just two sides of the conflict but actually being reflected by the Intent of Trell, too. And Dominion might be a much better fit if it turns out it is a Shard we know. But I admit I may be going too far in trying to tie it all together, and I definitely won't be disappointed if it turns out I'm wrong.

Edit: I keep going back and forth. The themes could very well tie nicely with the consequences of Autonomy's intent.

Edited by Art
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  • 5 weeks later...

Been looking around for stuff on Trell and this thread has some interesting points. Personally I feel that it is incorrect to assume such a direct connection between Trell's intentions and those of the Set, especially as there is still a certain amount of mystery around what the Set is doing. In addition I think the red-eyed immortal's comment about controlling events on scadrial aren't necessarily as meaningful as they might be interpreted. I get the feeling it's just that Trell or their minions had a plan for scadrial that isn't working, any plan requires you to have control over some events and the shard's intent doesn't have to be directly related to control just for them to have a plan that could be said to be out of their control.

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While I have never given the Dominion theory any real thought it does make a startling amount of sense. However we must remember that Odium and Autonomy have been painted as the bad guys, Hoid was stated that those were the shardbearers he hated. Anyways best bet Autonomy just due to easy story purposes.

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  • 8 months later...

Autonomy refers to it's self in the plural. You can find it in the letter to Hoid & in the quote that Art posted at the top of the thread.

Here's the letter to Hoid, presumably from Autonomy. I bolded the parts that support the idea that the letter is indeed from Autonomy, the emphasis on doing things by yourself (autonomously) and on tests of worth (Sandmaster trials on Taldain or life in general on The Pantheon on First of the Sun).

"You must know better than to approach us by relying upon presumption of past relationship. You have spoken to one who cannot respond. We, instead, will take your communication to us – though we know not how you located us upon this world. We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms. As the waves of the sea must continue to surge, so must our will continue resolute.
Alone.
Did you expect anything else from us? We need not suffer the interference of another. Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison. Indeed, we admire his initiative. Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience. But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains. Leave us alone. We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there. She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you. This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created."

I think Autonomy is a good candidate for Trell. Kriss says in Arcanum Unbound that Autonomy enforces a policy of strict isolationism on Taldain. Isolation would likely be a necessity if you were trying to keep order on a world, as outside ideas and magics would cause disruption. Autonomy also seems to be the only shard interested in spreading its influence across multiple systems. Obviously Rayse has visited many systems, but his goal seems to be killing the other vessels and shattering their shards rather than taking the systems under his control. Autonomy (or at least Bavadin) is currently on Taldain, but in the letter you can see that it is also present in a place (world?) called Obrodai. Additionally, Autonomy is thought to have had something to do with the magic system on First of the Sun.

Also I think you guys might be misunderstanding the intent of Dominion. It isn't domination, it's more like belonging. Think of it more like the ferruchemical property of connection. That's why the different magic systems on Sel work so well in their homelands, but lose power when they get farther away. I also think it unlikely that Brandon would allow something like Dominion's power being reformed and then being taken up by a vessel happen off screen.

Just my opinion.

P.S. Random thought, has Autonomy somehow split its self between multiple vessels? The letter certainly seems to indicate that. I wonder if the power of the Shards is universal, but they need a vessel present in a system in order to act? It would seem to explain how a fundamental force of the universe (or at least the Cosmere) could be contained in a single solar system.

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On 7/13/2018 at 9:45 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

P.S. Random thought, has Autonomy somehow split its self between multiple vessels? The letter certainly seems to indicate that. I wonder if the power of the Shards is universal, but they need a vessel present in a system in order to act? It would seem to explain how a fundamental force of the universe (or at least the Cosmere) could be contained in a single solar system.

Autonomy has created "avatars." 

We don't understand too much about them, but it goes something like this.  All of the Investiture throughout the entire Cosmere is assigned to one of the Shards.  However, the mind of the Vessel (despite being vastly expanded) is not infinite, and so they are not aware of all of "their" Investiture.  What Autonomy seems to be doing is somehow "learning" about the existence of "her" Investiture in different places throughout the Cosmere and is using it to create avatars.  

Quote from the first WoB:

Quote

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

 

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On 9/21/2017 at 6:22 PM, Art said:

So I definitely do not think that Trell is Odium. He's something different, driven by organization and not hatred. His Shard is Order, or at least is a shard with an intent that desires that order, planning, organization, and perfection that is opposed to Harmony.

Cultivation, perhaps? I understand she's a little... preoccupied, what with the LAst Desolation and all, but she's the only Shard we know of whose Intent matches all or most of your stipilations.

It's possible.

Edited by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 23/09/2017 at 0:36 AM, Calderis said:

That sounds more Dominion than Autonomy

I was pretty sure they’d been shattered into the Dor - especially considering timelines. If Mistborn 2 is roughly the same time as Stormlight, and Galladon turned up in The Way of Kings, the Dor was definitely shattered before then. (I’m not certain but I’m pretty sure that he is immortal to some extent and he was with Demoux, who was promised (to Micah DeMoux, the photographer, his namesake) to not die (and get a girl).) 

Also there’s this quote from Arcanum Unbounded “Autonomy’s policy of isolationism in recent times (in direct contrast to her interference with other planets, I might add)...” 

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5 hours ago, Emily said:

I was pretty sure they’d been shattered into the Dor - especially considering timelines. If Mistborn 2 is roughly the same time as Stormlight, and Galladon turned up in The Way of Kings, the Dor was definitely shattered before then. (I’m not certain but I’m pretty sure that he is immortal to some extent

Devotion and Dominion were the first Shards to be killed, we don't know exactly when but we can safely assume it was a long time ago. We know that Odium has been on Roshar for comfortably more than five thousand years (the time of Aharietiam, the earliest firm date we have) and he'd been stuck in the cycle of Desolations for probably thousands of years before that.

But yes, Devotion and Dominion's power was stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium and that's what makes up the Dor. All indications are that this remains the case as of the start of Stormlight Archive and it was definitely the case at the time Khriss wrote the essays in Arcanum Unbounded.

Galladon as an Elantrian is indeed immortal. Brandon has mentioned that their power will sustain them and they have no physical limitation on how long they can live, but it's also a more exhausting to be immortal that way than other Cosmere examples. Brandon has also said that an Elantrian distant from the city (whether on or offworld) will still be an Elantrian (and thus immortal) but they'll lose the visible signs of it and they won't be able to use AonDor.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Not sure if anyone has already brought this up, but Mistborn isn't the only place that Trell shows up. At the end of White Sands 2, one of the construction workers who is working for the Diem says his name is Trell. I think this supports the idea that Trell is Autonomy, but order doesn't actually fit into the definition of autonomy. The definition of autonomy is freedom from external control or influence. This kind of goes completely against what Trell seems to be trying to do.

I honestly think that this is either a new shard and just got Bleeder's metal from another shard, or somehow someone reformed Dominion. Or, one more option, this is the traveling shard that is trying to avoid Odium's attention, but that doesn't seem that likely.

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3 minutes ago, Sunbringer said:

I honestly think that this is either a new shard and just got Bleeder's metal from another shard, or somehow someone reformed Dominion.

Out of those options, the only one would be Dominion, because it can't be a new shard. 

Quote

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and Autonomy
source
Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

So the metal is from the Shard that is calling itself Trell, and it is one of the 9 listed in that Footnote, which would allow Dominion... 

I'm seriously wondering though if the reason that the Elantris sequels have to be published before Era 3 is due to learning more about the Set's Immortals. Elantris spoilers to follow. 

Spoiler

There is a fleeting reference in Elantris to the Svrakiss, called by Hrathen and Dilaf "Enemies of Jaddeth." 

Quote

“You assume because Jaddeth did not give them powers, they did not have any.”
Dilaf’s face grew pale. “What you say is—”
“Not blasphemy, Arteth. Doctrine. There is another supernatural force besides our God.”
“The Svrakiss,” Dilaf said quietly.
“Yes.” Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away."

“You think the Elantrians are Svrakiss?” Dilaf asked.
“It is accepted doctrine that the Svrakiss can control the bodies of the evil,” Hrathen said, unbuckling his greaves. “Is it so hard to believe that all this time they have been controlling bodies of the Elantrians, making them appear as gods to fool the simpleminded and unspiritual?”

Enemies of Jaddeth. And the Fjordell religion seems to lean far more towards Dominion than it does Devotion, most likely because of the influence of the Skaze. 

Quote

BrandonColevander

Are [Jaddeth] & [Domi] the Shards Dominion & Devotion?

Peter Ahlstrom

Domi is more Devotion and Jaddeth is more Dominion. But there is some mixing. The shard holders were Aona and Skai.

source

And the Svrakiss have the ability to animate the bodies of the dead according to Derethi doctrine. The immortal at the end is described by Edwarn as "a beggar taken of the street," if it were one freshly deceased would he know the difference? 

And then we have this WoB that I love for its implications, but it confirms absolutely nothing. 

Quote

Questioner

Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

source

It's extremely tenuous, and doesn't narrow our options down any further then the Odium and Autonomy for Trell that we've pretty much been at forever now... 

But if Autonomy is Trell... We'd have a much stronger implication that Autonomy actually did help Odium take out D&D

 

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