Confused

Radiantspren “True” Names, KR Oaths, and KR Behavior

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This is a longer post than I intended. I foolishly read the thread about Taravangian after writing the first part of this post. That thread in turn led to the discussion of oath interpretation and Knight Radiant behavior. Advance apologies for lumping all that together here, but I think they are related issues.

Radiantspren “True” Names

I theorize each Radiantspren is the personification of the human ideal represented by their KR Order’s “Primary Attribute.” IMO, these ideals are the spren’s true names, reflecting what they are. The names in the novels are the names Radiantspren call themselves. These self-identifying names may reflect spren self-perception, but not the human perception each Radiantspren personifies.

Examples: I describe the Radiantspren we know the most about in these terms. I don’t address all Radiantspren because we haven’t met them all.

Honorspren IMO are “Protectingspren.” Syl protects Kaladin during the highstorm, holding back winds that would tear him apart. When Kaladin tumbles into the chasm, Syl’s last act before the bond breaks (Rock-a-bye Baby?) forces Stormlight into Kaladin, protecting him from the fall. She denies the Stormfather to help Kaladin reinstate his oaths. Protection is Syl’s purpose, what she is.

Cryptics IMO are “Creativespren,” to be distinguished from creationspren. The essence of artistic creativity is pattern-recognition, seeing what others do not see. Pattern aids Shallan’s creativity by pushing her to more self-discovery and self-understanding, seeing the patterns within herself. That is necessary for her art to grow. He gives her creative advice throughout. When Shallan cannot see the “pattern” of the Oathgate, Pattern tells Shallan she should back up for perspective.

Wyndle, whatever he and his fellow Ring members call themselves, IMO is a “Lovingspren.” He “mothers” Lift and frets about her health and safety. He scolds her to eat more (as every mother does), so that her Surgebinding won’t make her too skinny. Wyndle’s purpose is to love Lift, to care for her, so that she can love and care for others.

Inkspren IMO are “Learnedspren.” Ivory seems willing to let Jasnah die in the WoR Prologue if she cannot learn how to use the Shadesmar beads properly. He acts like an exam proctor, testing her “learnedness” before he “passes” her into KR status.

I think the following WoB (the third quote from @Calderis's “oath interpretation” post) supports the distinction between human perception and spren self-perception. Spren “self-identity” IMO doesn’t change their human-personified behavior. Rather, highspren think “honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause.” IMO, an honorspren’s “good cause” is protecting people, which appears to supersede the oaths. I think the WoB’s last part addresses whether oaths are objective or subjective, not the human-personified nature of the spren itself – “how they work,” not what they are:

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Q: The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

A: That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Q: Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

A: Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

KR Oaths

@Calderis makes excellent points in his thread on KR behavior. (Upvotes not only for him but also for @Extesian, who supplied the quotations.) KR are not good or evil and may act “cruelly,” as Brandon says.

On 7/6/2017 at 5:54 AM, Calderis said:

Syl states in tWoK that all Spren are basically the same individual. So variations between different spren of the same type have to come from the person they are bonded too. Their souls are intermingled, and the sentience of the Spren is gained from that. It has to have an effect on their thought process. That's why I think as long as the person fulfills their oaths and truly believes it,  the Spren will agree. Source.

Agreed, but I think a bit overstated. The Radiantspren won’t begin to bond unless the KR candidate has the same “temperament” – Primary Attribute – as the Radiantspren: protecting, creative, loving, etc. I think Attribute alignment places intrinsic limits on KR variance within the same Order.

IMO, each KR Order’s Primary Attribute solely determines a KR candidate’s placement in that Order. Thus, I’d expect KR personalities to differ. I think many personality types can be protecting, or creative, or loving. It makes sense to me that the precise oath statement would differ from KR to KR within an Order.

It’s also possible same-type spren themselves show personality differences. Radiantspren are “people” too. But IMO these differences don’t affect their nature, their Primary Attribute. I’m unconvinced all same-type spren personality variations “come from the person they are bonded to,” as @Calderis states (emphasis in original).

FWIW, I think Radiantspren resemble Shards and their Mandates (intents). IMO both are power imbued with cognitive limitations. Both exercise their power subject to those limitations, even though (as Brandon says of Vessels) their personalities also affect their power exercise.

KR Behavior

So…to say KRs can act “dishonorably” seems obvious. Each Order is bound only by its common Primary Attribute. Oaths strengthen that bond, but again, only to more closely align a KR with its Order’s Primary Attribute.

Attributes like Protection and Creativity don’t necessarily bear any relationship to one another. Windrunners and Lightweavers can have different goals and different means of obtaining them. Such differences can easily lead to conflict among Orders.

@Calderis suggests Taravangian could be an Elsecaller like Jasnah. If I’m correct that Inkspren are “learned” spren, Taravangian clearly qualifies and could well attract an Inkspren. More so, because Brandon says in one of @Calderis’ WoBs that, until bonded, spren don’t fully comprehend the person they bond with. (That’s a fascinating comment!)

I wonder how long Taravangian’s Nahel bond would survive, though. The Elsecaller Secondary Attribute is “giving.” Taravangian IMO deliberately misleads others. He does not share information, he shares misinformation. Maybe that counts as giving, but….

Posters discuss whether Taravangian is misguided or “evil” in a moral sense on the “Mr. T” thread. I won’t add to that discussion here. I do note the extent to which the Diagram seems to support Nale’s notion about the KR’s danger.

On 7/6/2017 at 7:34 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

If I understand @Calderis correctly, then the spren are basically a second conscience, with the ability to speak.

Jiminy Cricket to the KR’s Pinocchio?

Edited by Confused
Added link.
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Nice summary, and even if the names differ, I very much like the basis for the Nahel Spren. 

And while I used Elsecaller as an argument for Taravangian as a Radiant in the thread you read to prove a point, I fully believe he'll be a Bondsmith. Pious and Guiding both fit him. His piety is in relation to the Diagram, rather than a divinity, but it is still piety. 

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The Inkspren are not related to Scholarlship but rather to the Logic and don't let the emotions to change your attitude and decision (I will call them Logicspren but there are already, so maybe MethodicSpren or Analitycspren).

By the way, I think (but this is subjective) that the creative attitude in Lightweaver is a likely conseguence to the real concept/attribute. So I believe Truthspren is really the Cryptics' True name

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Syl is bothered by lies, so just protectionspren feels too limiting.

Pattern told Shallan she needs truths to progress, so I think you put too much emphasys on her drawings just because she's the only LW we've met so far, but if I recall correctly WoB has it Kal has met another LW before her, yet she is the only one with this particular skill in art he has met, so artists are probably more likely than others to be LW material, but not necessarily the only ones, thus I'm skeptic about creativespren as an alternative for Cryptics. If I had to chose another name for them I'd go with self-awareness spren.

For inkspren I'd go with logicspren. When Jasnah first met her spren and it threw her in Shadesmar (not fully), he expected of her to use some basic logic to get herself out of that situation. You call it learned, but that wuld imply it's a spren you attract after you learned something imo.

About Vargo I saw someone mention him as potential second BS. I don't remember who suggested it, but it's an interesting possibility.

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26 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Pattern told Shallan she needs truths to progress, so I think you put too much emphasys on her drawings just because she's the only LW we've met so far, but if I recall correctly WoB has it Kal has met another LW before her,  ....

Whaaat?

Also, yes, I would think King Taravangian (how dare you call him "Vargo") is quite possibly a Bondsmith (You must become king. Of everthing. We must discuss the nature of kingship...) except that we have POVs from him and there has been no interaction with a spren; this even though the Diagram, and possibly what he's learned from the works in the Palanaeum before or after That Beautiful Day of Clarity, shows that he knows a lot about Surgebinding, the Heralds, progressing in the Nahel bond, the Everstorm (the Diagram has a countdown of highstorm dates leading up to it), and even the number, names, and effects of the Unmade.

No spren chitchatting... Yet.

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4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Whaaat?

Also, yes, I would think King Taravangian (how dare you call him "Vargo") is quite possibly a Bondsmith (You must become king. Of everthing. We must discuss the nature of kingship...) except that we have POVs from him and there has been no interaction with a spren; this even though the Diagram, and possibly what he's learned from the works in the Palanaeum before or after That Beautiful Day of Clarity, shows that he knows a lot about Surgebinding, the Heralds, progressing in the Nahel bond, the Everstorm (the Diagram has a countdown of highstorm dates leading up to it), and even the number, names, and effects of the Unmade.

No spren chitchatting... Yet.

According to WoB Kal has met two LW, but it doesn't state whether Kal met first the unknown or Shallan. 

I'd apologize to Vargo for not using proper titles, but he no longer has crazy surgebinding assassin, so he can't make me :ph34r: 

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2 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

According to WoB Kal has met two LW, but it doesn't state whether Kal met first the unknown or Shallan. 

Hmm. Elsewhere he has used "Lightweaver" to mean someone using the Surge of Illumination (that is, referring to it as "Lightweaving"), so maybe this is about Renarin or another Truthwatcher, versus an actual, Cryptic-bonded LW. Otherwise... Very interesting....

 

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Just now, robardin said:

Hmm. Elsewhere he has used "Lightweaver" to mean someone using the Surge of Illumination (that is, referring to it as "Lightweaving"), so maybe this is about Renarin or another Truthwatcher, versus an actual, Cryptic-bonded LW. Otherwise... Very interesting....

 

If Brandon used it as simple someone who can use the surge, then it's Hoid. I guess we'll find out at a later point whether it was this or an actual (proto)surgebinder of the LW Order.

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5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Syl is bothered by lies, so just protectionspren feels too limiting.

KR Orders are the combination of “a concept or an ideal mixed with an essence…with two magics attached to it.” Radiantspren Primary Attributes form only the “ideal” part, what they personify. Brandon says all “Honor” spren are “bothered by lies,” regardless of their Order. The ideal and the Mandated Investiture that comprises the Radiantspren are separate parts of that combination. IOW, lies bother Syl because she’s made from Honor - the Shard of “oaths, promises and nobility” – not because she is a “protecting spren.”

5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Pattern told Shallan she needs truths to progress, so I think you put too much emphasys on her drawings just because she's the only LW we've met so far, but if I recall correctly WoB has it Kal has met another LW before her, yet she is the only one with this particular skill in art he has met, so artists are probably more likely than others to be LW material, but not necessarily the only ones, thus I'm skeptic about creativespren as an alternative for Cryptics. If I had to chose another name for them I'd go with self-awareness spren.

First, I agree Hoid is the Lightweaver Kal met before Shallan (in the “Wandersail” chapter). Brandon says he uses the Yolen variant of Lightweaving.

Second, I wasn’t limiting Cryptics to the visual arts. Brandon says Cryptics are the spren that seek artists of all kinds. One would hope “self-awareness” is a trait everyone shares, not just artists. (Oh, if only it were so!) But IMO artists can’t achieve their full potential without total self-knowledge at some level.

5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

For inkspren I'd go with logicspren. When Jasnah first met her spren and it threw her in Shadesmar (not fully), he expected of her to use some basic logic to get herself out of that situation. You call it learned, but that wuld imply it's a spren you attract after you learned something imo.

You and @Yata agree on this. I understand the conclusion derives from this WoB:

Quote

Question: What qualities would attract an inkspren?

Answer: Inkspren don't like how variable humans are, it's a thing out of Honor, so a person who is willing to think about their life rather than reacting by instinct would work for them. The scholar is the perfect example but for instance a soldier who is very thoughtful and doesn't just rush into battle would work for them too.

IMO, this WoB suggests Inkspren approve Socrates’ idea (reported in Plato’s Apology) that “the unexamined life is not worth living.” I think “learnedness” requires more than mere knowledge or mere analysis, but some combination of the two. You can’t analyze something you don’t know, and thoughtless knowledge – rote memorization – doesn’t get you very far either. Jasnah is the perfect host for Ivory because she knows tons, but also thinks about the meaning of what she knows (and doesn’t know).

Brandon’s example of the “thoughtful soldier who doesn’t just rush into battle” surprises me a bit. By that definition, Kal’s old squad leader Hav might qualify, as might Kal himself. IMO, that seems too low a bar to attract an Inkspren. Like your suggestion of “self-awareness” for Cryptics, I think mere “thoughtfulness” captures too many candidates.

Also, logic is only one form of analysis. I think of “insight” as the intersection of analysis and imagination. Pure logic without imagination doesn’t necessarily provide insight (IMO).  You and Yata may disagree with me, but “logicspren” just seems an inadequate descriptor.

I also find it interesting that “Inkspren don't like how variable humans are, it's a thing out of Honor.” To me, this confirms that Honor is a conservative force, seeking to place humans into predictable ruts. That must have storyline implications somewhere.

5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

About Vargo I saw someone mention him as potential second BS. I don't remember who suggested it, but it's an interesting possibility.

This was @Calderis.

Edited by Confused
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Honor is sticking to a rigid code forever. I imagine a being connected to that Intent wouldn't like change or variability all that much.

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7 hours ago, Confused said:

KR Orders are the combination of “a concept or an ideal mixed with an essence…with two magics attached to it.” Radiantspren Primary Attributes form only the “ideal” part, what they personify. Brandon says all “Honor” spren are “bothered by lies,” regardless of their Order. The ideal and the Mandated Investiture that comprises the Radiantspren are separate parts of that combination. IOW, lies bother Syl because she’s made from Honor - the Shard of “oaths, promises and nobility” – not because she is a “protecting spren.”

I accept your correction, however not all protecting attracts honorspren, otherwise they would have been known to fly around bodyguards and the like. I like your idea in general that there could be a more fitting name for Syl's kind, I just remain of the opinion protectingspren is unsuitable. 

 

Quote

 

First, I agree Hoid is the Lightweaver Kal met before Shallan (in the “Wandersail” chapter). Brandon says he uses the Yolen variant of Lightweaving.

Second, I wasn’t limiting Cryptics to the visual arts. Brandon says Cryptics are the spren that seek artists of all kinds.

 

Perhaps I worded it poorly, I didn't mean you limited Cryptics to visual arts, but to arts in general. I do not expect all LW to have been artists in the usual sense of the word. A lot of them, sure, however not all because it's not the art itself that attracted Pattern, but how and why it was done. From WoR:
 

Quote

 

"These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished."

 

 

 

Many, but not only those who pursue arts.

 

Quote

One would hope “self-awareness” is a trait everyone shares, not just artists. (Oh, if only it were so!) But IMO artists can’t achieve their full potential without total self-knowledge at some level.

Everybody has different degrees of self-awareness, that is true. However, I was going for some next level self-awareness that the average person (even if an artist) doesn't have based on this quote from WoR:

Quote

"Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain."

You could argue it was just this one individual that was particularly unself-aware, but that's not not how I interpret it.

 

Quote

 

You and @Yata agree on this. I understand the conclusion derives from this WoB:

IMO, this WoB suggests Inkspren approve Socrates’ idea (reported in Plato’s Apology) that “the unexamined life is not worth living.” I think “learnedness” requires more than mere knowledge or mere analysis, but some combination of the two. You can’t analyze something you don’t know, and thoughtless knowledge – rote memorization – doesn’t get you very far either. Jasnah is the perfect host for Ivory because she knows tons, but also thinks about the meaning of what she knows (and doesn’t know).

Brandon’s example of the “thoughtful soldier who doesn’t just rush into battle” surprises me a bit. By that definition, Kal’s old squad leader Hav might qualify, as might Kal himself. IMO, that seems too low a bar to attract an Inkspren. Like your suggestion of “self-awareness” for Cryptics, I think mere “thoughtfulness” captures too many candidates.

Also, logic is only one form of analysis. I think of “insight” as the intersection of analysis and imagination. Pure logic without imagination doesn’t necessarily provide insight (IMO).  You and Yata may disagree with me, but “logicspren” just seems an inadequate descriptor.

I also find it interesting that “Inkspren don't like how variable humans are, it's a thing out of Honor.” To me, this confirms that Honor is a conservative force, seeking to place humans into predictable ruts. That must have storyline implications somewhere.

 

I have one additional reason to call them that, it's a minor thing, but I'm reluctant to share it before the boards merge, because I don't remember if spoiler tags were acceptable or I should avoid even that, so I don't want the wrath of any moderator on me. 

I don't know why Brandon went for Inkspren since they aren't attracted to ink... Doesn't that last quote hint this trait is unrelated to Honor (if it was, shouldn't it be worded 'a thing from Honor'?), hence it's not because of him that inkspren seek to put humans in predictable routs? It could be of Cultivation since plants for example are very predictable in how they grow and what you can expect. After all radiantspren are a combination of both.

 

Quote

This was @Calderis.

Thanks!

Edited by Aleksiel
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