Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) The question is if all he needed was the connection to the PR how did Kel become a Fullborn? And second I don't think there's something like ambient investiture that permeates the PR. As I understand it most Investiture resides in the SR. So my take on the whole popping into investiture thing is that: Upon entering a perpendicularity (or elsecalling or any other means of travelling between realms) the body converts into investiture. This should be easy enough to understand since in the cosmere matter, energy and investiture are the same thing in different states (like matter and energy in RL). This investiture resides in the SR but still has a connection to the part of the person that traveled to the CR. As soon as that part leaves the CR reentering the PR the junk of investiture that is still connected to it (because ot once was the body) will reform into the body of said person. This would explain the popping into investiture bit but not need a strong ambient investiture to work. And since location has no meaning in the SR it is irrelevant where you leave the CR. your body will always form from essentially the same bit of investiture. As a result of this theory Kel would not only need a connection to the PR but also a connection to a large enough junk of investiture at either his point of entry into the PR or in the SR. It could also be that he only needs the connection to the investiture since I can't remember a wob that speaks about the connection to a realm. Edited July 11, 2018 by Rhapsody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 @Rhapsody the Cognitive Realm is also entirely composed of investiture. All matter is also investiture. Quote Questioner Is Scadrial losing mass when people burn metals? Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically it is, but Investiture is another dimension to matter. Questioner So it doesn't lose mass, it becomes Investiture? Brandon Sanderson It becomes Investiture... Basically, when you go into the cosmere, we've got matter, we've got energy here. You've got matter, energy, and Investiture there, and you can get things out of Investiture back into matter, and stuff like that. There's always energy, there's entropy, there's always diffusement... it's basically, add to the laws of thermodynamics a third item, and that's how we word it. source Investiture is literally everything. This idea isn't a matter of somehow creating investiture, it's just transference. By stealing the connection to the physical realm from someone's soul, you'd be stealing the investiture that allows their body to manifest. I think it would have to be done to a worldhopper in the Cognitive, but all things considered they aren't actually all that rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 @Calderisisn't that exactly what I said? Matter and investiture are essentially the same. so converting one to the other is simply a matter of finding the right process. The difference between our approaches is simply the question of where that investiture is located. If I have understood what you mean you say the investiture from the body disperses in ambient investiture in the PR while in my opinion it stays in the SR. Additionally I remember a Wob that talks about how most of the investiture is sitting in the SR. (on a side note: could someone explain to me how I can quote wobs here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) @Rhapsody maybe I'm confused then. I don't understand where the Physical realm enters into it. Most of the investiture involved would be in the Cognitive Realm, but I don't really thin the Realms matter. I don't remember ever saying that anything about Investiture confined to the Physical As to WoBs, it's a matter of clicking the quotation marks at the top of the post box, and then pasting them from Arcanum into the box it creates. Edit: let me explain a little better here. Transition between realms happens by necessity through a place where not just the Cognitive and Spiritual become one. That's what makes a perpendicularity work. By necessity at that point its connected directly to the Spiritual Realm. It doesn't matter, where the investiture comes from. It could come from the perpendicularity itself and be a tiny drop of the pool. The realm from which that's taken is irrelevant because in that specific place your not in a single realm. Edited July 11, 2018 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) @Calderis as I understood it until now that people exist in all three realm all the time anyway. So I don't think it is a matter of existing in one realm more but more of a matter where most of the investiture comprising the person is. Does that sound right? But you are right since at a perpendicularity all realms are close it doesn't matter where the investiture comes from. But how is it with Elsecalling or the Oathgates? you don't have a shardpool then, that can give you the extra investiture. so how does it work then? @Calderisalso sorry if I didn't understand what you wanted to say. It seemed like the gist of the discussion until then was that the investiture that comprised the body would disperse in ambient investiture and reform from ambient investiture when leaving the CR. Since there was discussion on the possibility of ambient investiture I wanted to offer another aproach. Edited July 11, 2018 by Rhapsody corrected spelling and fixed typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, Rhapsody said: But how is it with Elsecalling or the Oathgates? you don't have a shardpool then, that can give you the extra investiture. so how does it work then? Elsecalling (and the Oathgates by extension) create a small perpendicularity. It's expensive, and short lived, but it's still weakening the barriers between realms to allow a transition out of the physical completely. Spoilered for length, bolded the relevant paragraph. Spoiler Questioner Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner And can we know how? Brandon Sanderson Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have? Questioner Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized. Brandon Sanderson Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in-- Questioner Yeah, yeah I know these. Brandon Sanderson You know which one I'm referencing? Questioner Yes. Brandon Sanderson That you didn't see a Pool from? Questioner Oh wait-- Brandon Sanderson Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance. Argent There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves. Questioner Woah...so...Highstorm? Brandon Sanderson *makes non-committal noises* Questioner 2 Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. Questioner 2 So it's just a question of skill, not a question of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 41 minutes ago, Rhapsody said: But how is it with Elsecalling or the Oathgates? you don't have a shardpool then, that can give you the extra investiture. so how does it work then? Both are powered by Stormlight: either from the Radiant (Elsecalling) or gemstones (Oathgates). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 36 minutes ago, Calderis said: Elsecalling (and the Oathgates by extension) create a small perpendicularity. It's expensive, and short lived, but it's still weakening the barriers between realms to allow a transition out of the physical completely. I dont know if that is entirely true. Elsecalling is a way to physically transfer yourself into and out of the Cognitive Realm, but per this WOB Oathgates operate on a different principle involving travel through the Spiritual Realm. They also (and separately, since that part can be shut down while the gates still function) allow for travel into and out of Shaesmar, but it sounds like they are arriving at the same effect via a different mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, Quantus said: I dont know if that is entirely true. Elsecalling is a way to physically transfer yourself into and out of the Cognitive Realm, but per this WOB Oathgates operate on a different principle involving travel through the Spiritual Realm. They also (and separately, since that part can be shut down while the gates still function) allow for travel into and out of Shaesmar, but it sounds like they are arriving at the same effect via a different mechanism. The oathgates are still Transportation. Teleportation in the Cosmere must use the Spiritual Realm by necessity. It is the only location independent Realm. What would be happening here is that you would be bypassing the Cognitive Realm in both entrance and exit, using the Spiritual Realm as a doorway to fold space. A perpendicularity would still serve this purpose, only it would link to two physical locations, joined together by the lack of location dependence in the Spiritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 @CalderisI think you mean the perpendicularity connects the realm as opposed to two locations on the PR through the SR Ok I think I get how it works. But we have diverged from the original thread quite a bit, which posed the question if Kelsier could have formed a body from ambient investiture if someone spiked his CS with a connection to the PR. I think we should return to the topic at hand (and sorry for derailing the thread a bit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Calderis said: The oathgates are still Transportation. Teleportation in the Cosmere must use the Spiritual Realm by necessity. It is the only location independent Realm. What would be happening here is that you would be bypassing the Cognitive Realm in both entrance and exit, using the Spiritual Realm as a doorway to fold space. A perpendicularity would still serve this purpose, only it would link to two physical locations, joined together by the lack of location dependence in the Spiritual. What I was trying to say was Oathgates accomplish Transportation, but it does not appear to be the same mechanism as the Elsecaller Surge of Transportation, which so far does not allow access to the Spiritual Realm nor can it accomplish the sort of instantaneous transport, rather it pokes a hole to the Cognitive, and you then have to traverse the terrain there. Oathgates seem a lot closer to a mini-perpendicularity, but the Elsecaller surge does not seem at all up to that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, Quantus said: What I was trying to say was Oathgates accomplish Transportation, but it does not appear to be the same mechanism as the Elsecaller Surge of Transportation, which so far does not allow access to the Spiritual Realm nor can it accomplish the sort of instantaneous transport, rather it pokes a hole to the Cognitive, and you then have to traverse the terrain there. Oathgates seem a lot closer to a mini-perpendicularity, but the Elsecaller surge does not seem at all up to that level. Fabrials, all fabrials, use the surges. They are highly specialized, but they are the same mechanics. Just because we haven't seen Transportation accomplish teleportation for a Radiant doesn't mean it's impossible. Possibly prohibitively expensive, yes. But the fact that it can transition between realms means that from a purely theoretical standpoint an Elsecaller should be able to do the same thing, and I'm absolutely sure that it can. We've already seen two magics on Sel produce teleportation, and it would have to function on the same mechanics. The Cosmere is consistent. The only prohibition I see between there and here is that on Sel, the Dor is basically and endless source of Investiture that relies on how the forms program them, so it's purely knowledge without respect to cost. On Roshar, you need to have both the knowledge that it is possible or your perception will limit you, and the ridiculous amounts of stormlight it would take to achieve. The oathgates having fixed departure and arrival points probably helps them to reduce the cost problem somehow, but saying that they function on a different mechanism than the surge of "motion and realmatic transition" is to much for me to believe. The location dependence issues mean that transition through the spiritual is the only way to achieve true teleportation. And physical entry to the Spiritual Realm is possible. Duralumin and Atium showed us that. (two WoBs, spoilered for length. The second references back to the first with the "You may have seen people do it) Spoiler Questioner When will we visit the Spiritual Realm like we have done the Cognitive Realm. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you already have, briefly when Elend transcended and burned atium with duralumin. source Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.source All of this said, the reason this all matters to the theory is that any perpendicularity is going to bring the Realms together through a concentration of investiture. Quote Bugsy6912 Does Investiture warp spacetime like objects with mass/energy do in our world? Brandon Sanderson Yes--but the warping is not on the Physical Realm. source Quote Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Can Shards manifest a physical body that can actually interact with the Physical Realm? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] If they wanted to, yes. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Was that the thing that -snip- did at the end of -snip- or was that just a projection? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Uhm, it starts to be really difficult to define when you're getting to these points because they generally are such massive wells of Investiture themselves that it's like, is this thing they're creating, like, they are kinda, y'know, then bending the three Realms around the like spacetime with lots of gravity so is that a projection? Is that a real thing? Does it matter? Does that definition... Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Oh! At that point they are almost the same thing, right? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, exactly. source Snipped to avoid OB spoilers. Click the source link at your own risk. Investiture draws the Realms together in the same way that matter creates a gravitational pull. A perpendicularity is a place that transition is possible. That means that in the place of a perpendicularity, the barriers are down between the Realms. Transition can occur specifically because the Realms have been drawn together. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 Ok but all that still doesn't answer the question what happens with the body when a person changes realms. we know that the body 'pops' into investiture since we have a wob on that. But what happens with that investiture is still unclear. Does it a diffuse in the ambient investiture (if something like that exists). Then the body would reform from ambient investiture upon return to the physical realm and Kelsier would only need to be spiked with a connection to the PR to return b go to the spiritual realm to merge with the large junk of investiture there (see wob above) but maintain the connection to the mind of the one the body originally belonged to. Then upon entering the PR again this investiture would be drawn from the SR (which should be easy since at a perpendicularity the realms are close to each other) to reform the body. Then Kelsier would need the connection to a large enough junk of investiture at either his point of entry into the PR or in the SR and possible also a connection to the PR itself. c the investiture travels into the CR with the mind of the traveler. Then when reentering the PR this investiture would form the body. For Kelsier that would mean that he would need a connection to the PR and gather enough investiture in the CR to form a body. In any event this body would be completly his own (scars of the survivor and everything) because as a template for forming the body obviously hos spiritual self filtered through his cognitive perception would be used (like with any healing in the cosmere) what this doesn't explain is how he got his feruchemical powers. His allomantic powers would probably return since they are a part of his spiritual DNA but there would be no reason anything we have seen would give him feruchemical powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 I don't feel like there is a functional difference between A & B. Stealing the connection to the physical would key that investiture to you that's "stored" in the Spiritual if ambient Investiture isn't a thing. 3 minutes ago, Rhapsody said: what this doesn't explain is how he got his feruchemical powers. His allomantic powers would probably return since they are a part of his spiritual DNA but there would be no reason anything we have seen would give him feruchemical powers. This assumes that he is a Fullborn in truth. With the knowledge he attained during his ascension he could achieve this through two spikes for nicrosil compounding on their own. With enough time, which he has in abundance, it could be done as a nicrosil Ferring alone. A nicrosil Ferring with access to medallion tech would be able to store and access the ability to use any other power just by holding a medallion. Add in nicrosil Allomancy (which could itself be stored by the Ferring alone) and suddenly they can compound and store that ability without fear of ever running out. There's no need for him to have actually gained those powers intrinsically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 You are right in that it is possible but we have no mention of any other spike in him beside the one in his eye. Also I think if he simply switched medaillions wouldn't the southern scadrians have realized that sometime? a and b are different in that in b the investiture is keyed to the individual while in a it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 22 minutes ago, Rhapsody said: You are right in that it is possible but we have no mention of any other spike in him beside the one in his eye. He has a single visible spike. As long as he has less than four he's still not able to be controlled. Which conveniently leaves room for two more spikes. This is Kelsier we're talking about. He's going to use anything he can to min/max. 24 minutes ago, Rhapsody said: Also I think if he simply switched medaillions wouldn't the southern scadrians have realized that sometime? He wouldn't need to. After starting the process, he'd just need a nicrosilmind for the powers and he'd have his own, keyed, bands making him functionally Fullborn. No swapping. No interference with other medallions. Just his own metalmind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmnsquirtle Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Calderis said: He wouldn't need to. After starting the process, he'd just need a nicrosilmind for the powers and he'd have his own, keyed, bands making him functionally Fullborn. No swapping. No interference with other medallions. Just his own metalmind. Would you mind explaining this process in a bit more depth? The intricacies of nicrosil still evade me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said: Would you mind explaining this process in a bit more depth? The intricacies of nicrosil still evade me. This thread goes into the issue a bit, I have a post in there where it try to explain it as well. Edited July 11, 2018 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 Ok after reading up on nicrosil I think you are right. @Calderis It is possible with one additional spike and one medaillion. I still ... don't like the idea though I can't really express why. Perhaps I think it would be interesting to see him find a possibility to truly become Fullborn. Perhaps there are other possibilities to gain feruchemic powers than hemalurgy that we simply do not know about yet. Either way I think it would be fun to speculate on it Doesn't really answer the question about his new body though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calderis said: Fabrials, all fabrials, use the surges. They are highly specialized, but they are the same mechanics. Just because we haven't seen Transportation accomplish teleportation for a Radiant doesn't mean it's impossible. Possibly prohibitively expensive, yes. But the fact that it can transition between realms means that from a purely theoretical standpoint an Elsecaller should be able to do the same thing, and I'm absolutely sure that it can. We've already seen two magics on Sel produce teleportation, and it would have to function on the same mechanics. The Cosmere is consistent. The only prohibition I see between there and here is that on Sel, the Dor is basically and endless source of Investiture that relies on how the forms program them, so it's purely knowledge without respect to cost. On Roshar, you need to have both the knowledge that it is possible or your perception will limit you, and the ridiculous amounts of stormlight it would take to achieve. The oathgates having fixed departure and arrival points probably helps them to reduce the cost problem somehow, but saying that they function on a different mechanism than the surge of "motion and realmatic transition" is to much for me to believe. The location dependence issues mean that transition through the spiritual is the only way to achieve true teleportation. And physical entry to the Spiritual Realm is possible. Duralumin and Atium showed us that. (two WoBs, spoilered for length. The second references back to the first with the "You may have seen people do it) Reveal hidden contents Questioner When will we visit the Spiritual Realm like we have done the Cognitive Realm. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you already have, briefly when Elend transcended and burned atium with duralumin. source Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.source All of this said, the reason this all matters to the theory is that any perpendicularity is going to bring the Realms together through a concentration of investiture. Snipped to avoid OB spoilers. Click the source link at your own risk. Investiture draws the Realms together in the same way that matter creates a gravitational pull. A perpendicularity is a place that transition is possible. That means that in the place of a perpendicularity, the barriers are down between the Realms. Transition can occur specifically because the Realms have been drawn together. Here's the thing in your statement that I cant get past: you keep asserting that the Surge of Transportation and a Perpendicularity are accomplishing their versions realmic travel via the same mechanism, which I think is downright impossible. Perpendicularities allow for transfer to the CR because they have so much metaphysical Mass (Investiture) that they cause the realmic equivalent of a gravity well and squeeze the realms together until the boundaries cease to exist (or to be meaningful, in a weird quantum mindset). But there is simply no way that an ordinary Radiant can create a Perpendicularity like that, it takes Shardic quantities of Investiture to make that happen and they cannot do it. I have no issues with the Transportation surge itself, or with the concept of teleportation in the Cosmere. I simply dont think we can assume that ALL realmic travel involves creating a Perpendicularity and traversing a common point of all three realms the way using a Perpendicularity does. Whatever the back-end mechanisms of the Surge Of Transportation may be, and how that surge may differ between the Elsecallers, the Willshapers, and/or Fabrials, I dont think we have neough information to really say; but by all we know of the Realms I am confident that it is not as simple as Transportation being a mini-UNITY event. 4 hours ago, Rhapsody said: Ok but all that still doesn't answer the question what happens with the body when a person changes realms. we know that the body 'pops' into investiture since we have a wob on that. But what happens with that investiture is still unclear. Does it a diffuse in the ambient investiture (if something like that exists). Then the body would reform from ambient investiture upon return to the physical realm and Kelsier would only need to be spiked with a connection to the PR to return b go to the spiritual realm to merge with the large junk of investiture there (see wob above) but maintain the connection to the mind of the one the body originally belonged to. Then upon entering the PR again this investiture would be drawn from the SR (which should be easy since at a perpendicularity the realms are close to each other) to reform the body. Then Kelsier would need the connection to a large enough junk of investiture at either his point of entry into the PR or in the SR and possible also a connection to the PR itself. c the investiture travels into the CR with the mind of the traveler. Then when reentering the PR this investiture would form the body. For Kelsier that would mean that he would need a connection to the PR and gather enough investiture in the CR to form a body. In any event this body would be completly his own (scars of the survivor and everything) because as a template for forming the body obviously hos spiritual self filtered through his cognitive perception would be used (like with any healing in the cosmere) what this doesn't explain is how he got his feruchemical powers. His allomantic powers would probably return since they are a part of his spiritual DNA but there would be no reason anything we have seen would give him feruchemical powers. There a couple WOBs that strongly imply to me that Investiture can be thought of as a Third side of the relativity Matter/Energy equivalence (Like how Scadrial is technically loosing mass thanks to metal burning). If that is the case, I dont think it would be that complicated for Realmic travel to be accomlishing that sort of 1-to-1 conversion. The question then is just "What is that stuff that looks and feels like matter in the Cognitive Realm?" I mean, as far as I can tell Shadesmar could jsut as easily be described as a standard (if admittedly very entangled) parallel dimension that just has it's own laws pf physics, but one that doesnt actually abandon the Matter/Energy basis. If the other realm was simply called the Prime Realm or something rather than literally "physical realm" which implies that the others are both specifically Non-physical, it could be mechanically the same but never have to raise questions like "What are their bodies made of" or "Why can they Breathe". Edited July 11, 2018 by Quantus Addressing the Body topic, didnt want to double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Quantus said: Perpendicularities allow for transfer to the CR because they have so much metaphysical Mass (Investiture) that they cause the realmic equivalent of a gravity well and squeeze the realms together until the boundaries cease to exist (or to be meaningful, in a weird quantum mindset). But there is simply no way that an ordinary Radiant can create a Perpendicularity like that, it takes Shardic quantities of Investiture to make that happen and they cannot do it. It takes shardic levels of investiture to create a sizable and stable long lasting perpendicularity. That is not the only way. The AU essay for Threnody implies that one is made everytime a shade is created. Quote Unfortunately, visiting the planet is difficult, as there is no stable perpendicularity—only very unstable ones that cannot be predicted easily, and have a somewhat morbid origin. Additionally, were flat out told that creating a perpendicularity is what Jasnah does in the WoB I quoted earlier. Quote But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. They don't need Shard levels of investiture because it's both small and temporary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Quantus said: There a couple WOBs that strongly imply to me that Investiture can be thought of as a Third side of the relativity Matter/Energy equivalence (Like how Scadrial is technically loosing mass thanks to metal burning). If that is the case, I dont think it would be that complicated for Realmic travel to be accomlishing that sort of 1-to-1 conversion. The question then is just "What is that stuff that looks and feels like matter in the Cognitive Realm?" I never implied the conversion was complicated or difficult to acomplish. And I don't think so. The thing is in RL when matter is converted to energy at that location is a kind of energy spike which normally disperses then as radiation energy (either light or heat or sound or all three). In the cosmere therefore the investiture that was converted from the body has to go somewhere. Since we don't see any investiture related Phenomena and/or energy dispersions like in RL that means there are other means by which this investiture behaves. In the post you cite I postulated 3 different theories on how that works. with a being the closest to how it would work with energy in RL (but as stated above we don't get any indication that that is what happens) and b and c being in my opinion both realmatically possible. They probably aren't the only possibilities just the ones I came up with at that moment. So I hope that is clear now! I never wished to dispute that investiture and matter in the Cosmere are the same thing in a different state (anolog to matter and energy in RL) but simply ask the question of what happens with the investiture after conversion, posing three possibilities and elaborating on their consequences for the original topic of the thread. Edited July 11, 2018 by Rhapsody fixed typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 25 minutes ago, Calderis said: It takes shardic levels of investiture to create a sizable and stable long lasting perpendicularity. That is not the only way. The AU essay for Threnody implies that one is made everytime a shade is created. Additionally, were flat out told that creating a perpendicularity is what Jasnah does in the WoB I quoted earlier. They don't need Shard levels of investiture because it's both small and temporary. Wow, that's embarrassing; I missed that WOB in your post entirely, sorry. 100% retract my previous theory. I was still picturing Elsecalling as something only powerful enough to make the Physical and Cog Realms warp and fold and was more poking a hole between those two only. Figured it took more powerful (and not a single surge) actions to make all three fold in gravity-style. This kinda makes the UNITY moment a little less awesome, but it does open the possibility of using Surges to access Spiritual Realm Investiture directly; I wonder if they could make farbials that power themselves directly rather than needing the filter of the Highstorm and gems? 6 minutes ago, Rhapsody said: I never implied the conversion was complicated or difficult to acomplish. And I don't think so. The thing is in RL when matter is converted to energy at that location is a kind of energy spike which normally disperses then as radiation energy (either light or heat or sound or all three). In the cosmere therefore the investiture that was converted from the body has to go somewhere. Since we don't see any investiture related Phenomena and/or energy dispersions like in RL that means there are other means by which this investiture behaves. In the post you cite I postulated 3 different theories on how that works. with a being the closest to how it would work with energy in RL (but as stated above we don't get any indication that that is what happens) and b and c being in my opinion both realmatically possible. They probably aren't the only possibilities just the ones I came up with at that moment. So I hope that is clear now! I never wished to dispute that investiture and matter in the Cosmere are the same thing in a different state (anolog to matter and energy in RL) but simply ask the question of what happens with the investiture after conversion, posing three possibilities and elaborating on their consequences for the original topic of the thread. Ok, I think I understand you better. And no worries, I didnt think you were disputing it, that was more me trying to get my bearings in the conversation (sorry about that). But I think I where our models are differing. The reason I dont think we see the sort of spike and dispersion that we would in a RL matter/energy conversion is that in RL it's a matter/energy conversion that is still taking place entirely in a Matter universe/ecosystem, forcing the energy to find expression in the forms available (your list). Im imagining the PR/CR transition as more an event where the Matter is being converted into Energy as part of being transferred to a 100% Energy State universe (not Investiture persay, but CR-stuff, whatever the spheres and spren and such are technically made of). There's no Spike and Dispersal because there is no uncontrolled build-up and/or forced release, (other than whatever visual, etc may come with the method like the light show with Elsecalling) since the states on both sides of the transition would match their surrounding ecosystem, and would just be expressing the Spiritweb SR blueprint. In most cases those forms are the same, though we have Sword/People pairs so...hey, I wonder if Nightblood looks any different in Shadesmar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 @Quantus yes I think we understand each other better know. because that is exactly what I meant. What you describe with Quote Im imagining the PR/CR transition as more an event where the Matter is being converted into Energy as part of being transferred to a 100% Energy State universe (not Investiture persay, but CR-stuff, whatever the spheres and spren and such are technically made of). There's no Spike and Dispersal because there is no uncontrolled build-up and/or forced release, (other than whatever visual, etc may come with the method like the light show with Elsecalling) since the states on both sides of the transition would match their surrounding ecosystem, and would just be expressing the Spiritweb SR blueprint. would be my theory c. exept you don't limit it to investiture. (though I think it should be investiture since Brandon says the body is popping into investiture) 5 minutes ago, Quantus said: hey, I wonder if Nightblood looks any different in Shadesmar? I don't think so. Vivennas/Azures sword doesn't look any different in Shadesmar and presumably it is another take on a Type IV biochromatic entity like nightblood. Though I could be wrong since nightblood seems to be a special case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 12 hours ago, Rhapsody said: @Quantus yes I think we understand each other better know. because that is exactly what I meant. What you describe with would be my theory c. exept you don't limit it to investiture. (though I think it should be investiture since Brandon says the body is popping into investiture) Oh, Cool then. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying there, I think because the the Kelsier context so the original body wasnt part of the equation. But whatever, my bad. So does that make the Cognitive Realm the built of pure investiture? Half of me thinks that cant be right because the natives still trade and stockpile Investiture in Breaths and Stormlight; but the other part of me isnt even sure that the Physical realm itself couldnt be described as pure crystallized Investiture as well. 12 hours ago, Rhapsody said: @Quantus I don't think so. Vivennas/Azures sword doesn't look any different in Shadesmar and presumably it is another take on a Type IV biochromatic entity like nightblood. Though I could be wrong since nightblood seems to be a special case. True, Good point. Nightblood is likely more Invested than hers (by virtue of being around longer if nothing else) but unlike actual shardblades there's no real reason for him to have a different self-image on that side; he still sees himself as a Sword, just an awesome one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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