Physical life after death.

[Calderis]

First off acknowledgement to @hwilesfor planting this idea in my head months ago.

During a discussion about Kelsier earlier today on discord with @Spoolofwhool and @Blightsong, I mentioned an idea I picked up from Hwiles about how Kelsier regained a body.

There's been numerous discussions on this, all most revolving around spiking Kelsier's Cognitive Aspect to a random body/Kandra and him taking over. 

I believe something different, and Spool and Blight helped flesh it out some. First, we need to look at the last half of this WoB from Boskone. 

Quote

Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the cognitive realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

But yes, um...

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. Like… Um… It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the cognitive realm their physical self just leaves the cognitive realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into investiture and popping out of investiture, so...

So, when a worldhopper is physically in the Cognitive Realm, they do not in fact have a body. They are comprised wholely of investiture, but retain their connection to the Physical realm. 

That connection is the only difference between a worldhopper in the Cognitive Realm, and a Cognitive Shadow like Kelsier. 

So what if, instead of a spike into a body, which couldn't house the entirety of Kelsier's Cognitive aspect, the spike only contains someone's connection to the Physical Realm? 

From this WoB, we know that hemalurgy is possible in the Cognitive. 

Quote

Mr. Suit

Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal…

Oversleep

Could it be spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

Oversleep

Could you steal from a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

Oversleep

Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood.

Brandon Sanderson

It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.

Questioner

Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, no, not Roshar.

Questioner

The Cognitive Realm on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do.

Oversleep

So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.

Oversleep

We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it.

(thanks @Overstorm) so a spike can be taken into the Cognitive Realm and used. If a spike were to steal the physical connection of a person, and then placed into Kel, he would then be composed of investiture in the Cognitive Realm and have a connection to the Physical Realm, just like every worldhopper. At this point, all he needs to do is go to a perpendicularity, and transition into the Physical Realm, the same as we've seen worldhoppers do before. 

When he steps through, his body should form from background investiture, or whatever mechanism works for your average worldhopper. 

Kelsier's body may not be his original, but it's 100% his own. 

[+hwiles]

I mean this more as an fyi for readers who aren't familiar with the original thread than a shameless self-plug...but here's the original post:

Props to @Calderis for distilling my ravings into a clear and concise idea, as well as including citations that I'm pretty sure I never did.  The link includes some supplementary speculation that attempts to address the theory's primary weak point: "How did Kelsier become a fullborn during his return to the Physical Realm?"

The kandra-hijacking theory is strong on this point (because kandra were originally full-feruchemists that had been warped) but, in my opinion, is overly obtuse and weak on realmatics.  The Connection-hacking theory is, in my opinion, strong on realmatics and elegantly simple, yet generally weak on explaining Kelsier's new powers.

[Yata]

@Calderis that was my theory on Kel's return. I proposed this last year and I found It possible but high speculative.

In the meanwhile new WoBs increased the likehood of It. So I am Happy to see It again

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Calderis that was my theory on Kel's return. I proposed this last year and I found It possible but high speculative.

In the meanwhile new WoBs increased the likehood of It. So I am Happy to see It again

I never saw that theory of yours, but I'll take your parallel thought process as a good sign. 

[+Extesian]

As I indicated on discord, I like it. It's realmatically reasonable, a good plot device and doesn't contradict anything we're aware of. Props to blight and spool for reality checking it. 

[Pagerunner]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

So, when a worldhopper is physically in the Cognitive Realm, they do not in fact have a body. They are comprised wholely of investiture, but retain their connection to the Physical realm. 

Can you elaborate on this idea? I do not see where you get it from that WoB. In fact, the WoB says that the physical body is indeed transported to the Cognitive Realm, not that it ceases to exist. The end of the statement is the method of transmission - Investiture creates the portal that you can use to transfer into and out of the Cognitive Realm.

As to the idea of 'connection to the Physical Realm,' Preservation does speak of the idea in Secret History:

Quote

And no, before you ask, you can't do as he did and transition between Realms. Your ties to the Physical Realm have been severed. You're a kite with no string connecting it to the ground. You cannot ride the perpendicularity across.

Note that Preservation does not refer to capital-C Connection here; other places, the term is capitalized, since it is referring to the Spiritual Realm substance. We learn of three kinds of Connection in Secret History: person to person, person to world, and person to God. Kelsier still has Connection to Scadrial; it's why he's not able to travel very far. But that's not what Preservation is referring to. Kelsier's physical body still exists, or as much remains after it was digested, but it is no longer a part of Kelsier. Which is why he can't use the Perpendicularity: he does not have a body in the Cognitive Realm. I don't think this is a Spiritual property that you can spike out of someone's soul; I think it's just that you need a body to move your body between Realms, and Kelsier does not have a body anywhere.

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

From this WoB, we know that hemalurgy is possible in the Cognitive. 

Brandon expressly RAFOs that possibility. Spren are different in the Cognitive Realm, but that's not necessarily where you would be able to spike them. I think he's saying there are places in the Physical Realm where spren manifest more tangibly. Not Roshar as a whole, but it would be specific places on Roshar where spren could be drawn into the Physical Realm to a greater degree.

[KidWayne]

So, this theory is basically - as Sazed says - Kelsier's string (to the Physical realm) has been cut and he needs a new string. Furthermore, he could get a new string by cutting someone else's string (tying them to the Physical realm) via Hemalurgy and tying the two cut strings together (spiking a Cognitive entity with a spike storing someone's connection to the Physical realm) which would facilitate a Cognitive entity's manifestation in the Physical realm.

Interesting. RAFO, I guess.

Edited September 21, 2017 by KidWayne

[CaptainRyan]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Just to add to what @Pagerunner said, from earlier in the WoB [emphasis is mine] we see here that Brandon says that a "rift" is created, the person "slip

through", and the body is "transported". The following claim by @Calderis seems contradictory to what Brandon is saying:

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

So, when a worldhopper is physically in the Cognitive Realm, they do not in fact have a body. They are comprised wholely of investiture, but retain their connection to the Physical realm.

The worldhopper is transporting their physical body into the Cognitive realm; they are not dissolving their body into investiture. Or, at least, that is how I read it.

Edited September 21, 2017 by CaptainRyan
weird formatting

[Calderis]

@Pagerunner @CaptainRyan

You guys obviously interpret those WoBs differently than I do. 

For the first one, yes their physical body enters into Shadesmar, that's obvious. Otherwise they would leave a body behind. The "rift" mentioned is just a miniature perpendicularity created through investiture. At the moment of transition though, I interpret the end of that WoB as their body "popping" into investiture. So they are then comprised of investiture completely. Kelsier already has extra investiture as a CS, his soul was "expanded and replaced" to resist the pull of the Beyond. 

As for hemalurgy in the Cognitive Realm, he specifically said no as to "on Roshar" and then yes to spren being different in the Cognitive Realm. He only RAFO'd once the hemalurgy in the Cognitive Realm was specifically mentioned. The answers prior make the RAFO seem more like an avoidance of further questions than a refutation of it working. 

And Connection, yes wensaw three specific types in Secret History, but I by no means believe that's all of it. Leras' words not being capitalized doesn't seem like a impediment either because he wasn't speaking realmatically. He was using an analogy that Kelsier could understand. The word "connecting" wasn't capitalized because you wouldn't capitalize the word in that analogy. A kite string physically connects to the kite. It is not a spiritual Connection. 

[CaptainRyan]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your theory @Calderis. May I ask a few questions to try and make sure that I am picking up what you are putting down?

Spoiler

I'm going to ask them anyway muahahahahahaha

Q1: Are you saying that all Kelsier needs is Connection to the physical world and he could walk through a rift/perpendicularity/whatever and his body would just... form?

Q2: If I am understanding your interpretation of these WoBs correctly, you are saying that when a worldhopper enters the CR their body converts to Investiture and then when they leave the CR it (the body) is converted from Investiture into Matter, right?

If I am correct about Q2 then I do not see how Q1 could be true without caveats - Kel's body, and the accompanying Investiture, are not present in the CR. He never "popped in" so there is no Investiture waiting to reform into his body. If worldhopping really does work the way you are suggesting (Matter (body) -> Investiture -> Matter (body)) then I would say the Investiture that represents the body is uniquely Connected and Identified as the body of the worldhopper. I doubt Kelsier could exit a perpendicularity and just form a body from background investiture. What if he exits in an area with low levels of background Investiture? Or the Investiture in the area is keyed or locked to another Shard?

I think a Cognitive Shadow needs more than just a connection to get back to the PR or else there are some really weird mechanics surrounding popping in and out of a perpdendicularity.

[Calderis]

Just now, CaptainRyan said:

Q1: Are you saying that all Kelsier needs is Connection to the physical world and he could walk through a rift/perpendicularity/whatever and his body would just... form?

Yes

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

Q2: If I am understanding your interpretation of these WoBs correctly, you are saying that when a worldhopper enters the CR their body converts to Investiture and then when they leave the CR it (the body) is converted from Investiture into Matter, right?

Again, yes. 

2 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

If I am correct about Q2 then I do not see how Q1 could be true without caveats - Kel's body, and the accompanying Investiture, are not present in the CR. He never "popped in" so there is no Investiture waiting to reform into his body. If worldhopping really does work the way you are suggesting (Matter (body) -> Investiture -> Matter (body)) then I would say the Investiture that represents the body is uniquely Connected and Identified as the body of the worldhopper. I doubt Kelsier could exit a perpendicularity and just form a body from background investiture. What if he exits in an area with low levels of background Investiture? Or the Investiture in the area is keyed or locked to another Shard?

I think a Cognitive Shadow needs more than just a connection to get back to the PR or else there are some really weird mechanics surrounding popping in and out of a perpdendicularity.

Here's the thing though. We saw people in the Physical Realm from the Cognitive on Scadrial. They were glowing mist figures. When someone entered the Cognitive physically, like Hoid, Khriss and Nazh, they looked normal in the Cognitive. 

Kelsier is already made up of more investiture than normal. That's how he's still here. So, if he can restore his physical Connection, the majority of his investiture crosses over to make a body, and his Cognitive becomes the same non-solid misty figure as everyone else. 

The majority of the investiture that makes up a person is rooted in the physical. We are physical beings.

[CaptainRyan]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Here's the thing though. We saw people in the Physical Realm from the Cognitive on Scadrial. They were glowing mist figures. When someone entered the Cognitive physically, like Hoid, Khriss and Nazh, they looked normal in the Cognitive.

I feel really dense as I am not sure what point you are making here. How does this tie into the theory that any ole investiture can form a body?

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kelsier is already made up of more investiture than normal. That's how he's still here.

My grasp of the finer points of Realmatics is, I am sad to say, not the best. I thought people immune to the pull of the Beyond were those who had at one point held a ton of investiture and that caused their soul to, for lack of a better word, stretch. I vaguely remember a WoB about a deflated wine skin (though it may be something a forum member said). At the moment, Kelsier does not have more investiture than the next guy, right? So, if he dropped into the PR he would only have the investiture level of a cognitive shadow, not that of a human that has both (again, for lack of better terms) a body and a soul. I mean, where does Kel's extra investiture come from? The Well? He did not, as far as I know, take any of the Well's power (Preservation) or any of Ruin's power while he was there. Nor did he retain any of Preservation's power when he gave that to Vin.

On that topic, we've seen the Lord Ruler, Vin, and Elend in the CR. The first two, who both, at one time, had held parts, or all, of Preservation's power but, at the time they were in the CR, held none of it, were immune to the pull. They were immune despite not holding any additional investiture is the key point. Elend, who was "merely" a Mistborn, was not immune though he had more time than a non-Mistborn.

If I have misrepresented any of the current understanding of Realmatics then please feel free to correct me. I would hate to be working under false assumptions.

[Calderis]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:46 PM, CaptainRyan said:

I feel really dense as I am not sure what point you are making here. How does this tie into the theory that any ole investiture can form a body?

Because while they looked like a mistspirit, there was a much lower investiture amount present in the Cognitive Realm. 

As to the rest of your post, it's actually not clear how it works yet. There's speculation and in world theories on Cognitive Shadows, but no hard facts. 

The deflated wineskin quote is specifically in regards to a Sliver, which has handled enough investiture to inherently become a CS upon death. Holding the Shard the wineskin is full to bursting. Stretched out and saturated, once emptied (and I don't believe it's 100% fully emptied) the soul is still warped from the sheer amount of power it contained. This isn't a requirement though. Cognitive Shadows do not have to have held a Shard to exist. 

With Elend, and with Kelsier himself before his sprint to the Well, having handled large amounts of investiture over time made them more resistant to the pull of the Beyond. I think this is because as investiture pours in, and through the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects of a person, some of it sticks. Like crem buildup from storm water. The more power that passes through, the more left behind. Once a benchmark has been reached, there's enough extra investiture embedded into the soul for someone to fully resist the pull of the Beyond, and they are a Cognitive Shadow. 

For a Sliver especially, their soul has not only been suffused, but stretched out and warped. I think that leaves room for more residual investiture. The amount of investiture contained in a Shard is unbelievably massive. A slight residual left attached to the soul of someone is nothing. It's a drop in an ocean. Here's a WoB for some perspective of that. 

Quote

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many morepeople than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

The amount of investiture from a Shard to a Sliver/Cognitive Shadow is insignificant to the Shard. But I think that it would be enough to form a body. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Calderis

[CaptainRyan]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The amount of investiture from a Shard to a Sliver/Cognitive Shadow is insignificant to the Shard. But I think that it would be enough to form a body. 

Gotcha. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me!

So, following this theory along, if a cognitive shadow of a person is spiked with a PR connection right after their actual death and before the Beyond takes them and they then leap through an existing perpendicularity... what happens? They probably lack the extra investiture to form a body. Are they repelled by the perpendicularity? Do they enter the PR only to die immediately as their new body cannot form properly? There could be some very interesting situations if this theory pans out.

[Spoolofwhool]

20 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

Gotcha. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me!

So, following this theory along, if a cognitive shadow of a person is spiked with a PR connection right after their actual death and before the Beyond takes them and they then leap through an existing perpendicularity... what happens? They probably lack the extra investiture to form a body. Are they repelled by the perpendicularity? Do they enter the PR only to die immediately as their new body cannot form properly? There could be some very interesting situations if this theory pans out.

Actually, what we mainly discussed was that the physical body is formed from background investiture, ambient investiture which is just spread out and permeating the Cosmere. No investiture is taken from the entity crossing between the realms, only from the Cosmere itself, which then returns the Cosmere when that person crosses back into the Cognitive Realm.

If you're interested, I can write the full train of thought which lead to this conclusion. It might help give some more context into the theory. 

[CaptainRyan]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actually, what we mainly discussed was that the physical body is formed from background investiture, ambient investiture which is just spread out and permeating the Cosmere. No investiture is taken from the entity crossing between the realms, only from the Cosmere itself, which then returns the Cosmere when that person crosses back into the Cognitive Realm.

If you're interested, I can write the full train of thought which lead to this conclusion. It might help give some more context into the theory. 

Hi @Spoolofwhool, I would be pretty interested in seeing that train of thought laid out. I have some reservations about a physical form being instantly created by ambient investiture but perhaps some of those concerns are addressed by full process. So, yeah! If you have time, I would love to see it and I'd imagine some other Sharders would be too!

[Runyan Firetree]

Quote

 

If a spike were to steal the physical connection of a person, and then placed into Kel, he would then be composed of investiture in the Cognitive Realm and have a connection to the Physical Realm, just like every worldhopper. At this point, all he needs to do is go to a perpendicularity, and transition into the Physical Realm, the same as we've seen worldhoppers do before. 

When he steps through, his body should form from background investiture, or whatever mechanism works for your average worldhopper. 

Kelsier's body may not be his original, but it's 100% his own. 

 

Nice theory @Calderis  Perhaps it's possible that another person wouldn't even be required if all that is needed is a physical realm connection since we have a WoB stating hemalurgy works on animals. 

But if another person's PR-Connection was stolen via a spike in the CR, would that person die (start being pulled to the Beyond) or would they just be a Cognitive Shadow or other CR-entity without being pulled to the Beyond?

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, runyan_ft said:

But if another person's PR-Connection was stolen via a spike in the CR, would that person die (start being pulled to the Beyond) or would they just be a Cognitive Shadow or other CR-entity without being pulled to the Beyond?

Hemalurgy typically kills, so unless they met the requirements to remain as a CS they'd go beyond. 

[Emerald101]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:40 PM, Calderis said:

With Elend, and with Kelsier himself before his sprint to the Well, having handled large amounts of investiture over time made them more resistant to the pull of the Beyond. I think this is because as investiture pours in, and through the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects of a person, some of it sticks. Like crem buildup from storm water. The more power that passes through, the more left behind. Once a benchmark has been reached, there's enough extra investiture I'm be dedicated into the soul for someone to fully resist the pull of the Beyond, and they are a Cognitive Shadow. 

This makes a lot of sense. I see it working a lot like fossilization. Brandon has described CS's as having their soul replaced by investiture, which really echoes how bone is replaced by minerals over a long period of time.

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

This makes a lot of sense. I see it working a lot like fossilization. Brandon has described CS's as having their soul replaced by investiture, which really echoes how bone is replaced by minerals over a long period of time.

Pretty much my thought process. 

[+robardin]

On 9/20/2017 at 10:36 PM, Calderis said:

If a spike were to steal the physical connection of a person, and then placed into Kel, he would then be composed of investiture in the Cognitive Realm and have a connection to the Physical Realm, just like every worldhopper. At this point, all he needs to do is go to a perpendicularity, and transition into the Physical Realm, the same as we've seen worldhoppers do before. 

When he steps through, his body should form from background investiture, or whatever mechanism works for your average worldhopper. 

Kelsier's body may not be his original, but it's 100% his own. 

So... This means the way physical transport through the Cognitive Realm works, whether worldhopping or Elsecalling, is essentially like how transporters work in "Star Trek"? Disassembly and re-assembly of physical matter on both ends, with a "data matrix" that passes through the CR which is equivalent to the person (with a Spiritual component in the Cosmere)?

[Spoolofwhool]

On 7/6/2018 at 10:35 AM, robardin said:

So... This means the way physical transport through the Cognitive Realm works, whether worldhopping or Elsecalling, is essentially like how transporters work in "Star Trek"? Disassembly and re-assembly of physical matter on both ends, with a "data matrix" that passes through the CR which is equivalent to the person (with a Spiritual component in the Cosmere)?

Yeah, that's a fair analogy. Also just less instantaneous.

[StrikerEZ]

@Calderis @Spoolofwhool I really like this theory. I'd like to know how you guys feel about it now, though, considering there is no such thing as ambient Investiture. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Calderis @Spoolofwhool I really like this theory. I'd like to know how you guys feel about it now, though, considering there is no such thing as ambient Investiture. 

Just because it's all assigned doesn't mean it's not pervasive. I still think there's ambient Investiture everywhere, it's just not some background investiture of Adonalsium from the shattering. 

My mind hasn't changed. 

[StrikerEZ]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Just because it's all assigned doesn't mean it's not pervasive. I still think there's ambient Investiture everywhere, it's just not some background investiture of Adonalsium from the shattering. 

My mind hasn't changed. 

I hadn't thought of it like that.

Okay, I can totally buy into this theory.