[OB] Mr T - what's he really doing?

[rjl]

Mr T is a very interesting character; in a way it's hard to classify him as a "bad guy" or a "good guy".

List of pertinent facts I can think of

1. He wants to save the world - this is fairly clear from his private thoughts.

2. His plans were born out of Gavilar's visions -> ostensibly a source of good ideas

3. His apparent objective is to unit the entire world under him to fight Odium -> sounds Bondsmith esque

4. He has had lots of people assassinated and has generally sown chaos across large parts of the world on face value this seems Odium esque

5. He kills invalids/poor people in order to extract information -> doesn't seem to fit with Life before death

6. He has one or more soulcasters and two or more shardbearers under his command

7. He apparently has one or more radiants working for him

8. He has conquered Jah Kavad

9. He knew that Surgebinders would be returning

10. He wants to kill Dalinar

Trying to put all of this together...
His basic plan appears to be: 1. I need to unite the whole world to fight Odium BUT 2. Diplomacy would take too long SO 3. Kill all the other leaders

He seems to know a lot of stuff that most people don't and even with the large library in Kharbranth the level of knowledge he has (knowing new Knights are coming and how the bonds work, knowing that the parshendi were potential voidbringers, knowing what broke the Knights before) it seems suspicious implying that he has access to a privileged source of some kind, could this be a spren?

Why does he want to kill Dalinar? It seems that it may just be that he wants the whole world united under him and doesn't want a rival as fighting a war (against Odium) would be harder with mixed leadership, but in that case is he about to flip? Is he now going to throw his lot in with Dalinar to unite the world or is he still worried about competition?

Ultimately I see 4 possible end results for Mr T

OPTION 1: Mr T the ally - Mr T allying with Dalinar working with him to save the world, most likely as a second Bondsmith bonded to the cultivation super spren -> the one thing I don't like about this idea is that as a reader it will feel quite unsatisfying if Mr T's evil actions are never publicly revealed/punished; maybe he will be a Bondsmith but will end up being killed by Dalinar for what he's done after they work together for a little while?

OPTION 2: Mr T the unintentional villain - think of Pedron Niall from Wheel of Time - a very competent character trying to do bad things for good reasons but with an end game based on having misunderstood what's actually going on who ends up doing more harm than good - this version of Mr T probably tries to kill Dalinar possibly by using another assassin; he's ultimately trying to do good but is so muddled up about how to do it that it's all a disaster - this version of Mr T would most likely seriously hinder the "good guys" plans but may ultimately have some kind of redemption scene.

OPTION 3: Mr T as a pure villain - Mr T is being controlled/manipulated by Odium into doing what he's doing he doesn't know this but he's preparing the world for Odium to destroy it.

OPTION 4: Some kind of hybrid, two out of the above 3 or one turning into another.

So, what do you think?
So, what do other people think, OPTION 1? to me that seems to be where things are hinting at the moment, I did think Option 2 for a while but there are several hints that I think make Option 1 more likely, the bondsmith like characteristics and having a radiant; though with OPTION 2 the radiant could be a fake or a dupe...

Or is there something I've missed that adds another option or removes one of these?

[The Invested Beard]

I don't know what he's up to but I pity the fool who underestimates him.

 

[Mulk]

Given the time periods we are talking about here, and how Odium seems to be bound between Desolations so that he can't hop elsewhere, I think we can rule out Odium influence on him, at least at the time the Diagram was written - whenever it was, we know it was before Taln showed up in Kholinar and was therefore before any Desolation could have started.  I note specifically that it is not until after Taln shows up that the Parshendi know of stormform and are able to capture the spren they need to go to stormform.  That could be a coincidence, but right now I'm leaning toward it not being one - it will be my contention for the time being that the Parshendi are incapable of becoming true voidbringers until Odium's influence on Roshar is released again, which appears to be the case as it stands at this moment.

I hope he winds up an ally, but right now I'm leaning towards unintentional bad guy.  The Niall comp is apt - he thinks he's right, wants to do right for it, but has totally misjudged both his own rightness and what is actually going on.

[The Invested Beard]

2 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Given the time periods we are talking about here, and how Odium seems to be bound between Desolations so that he can't hop elsewhere, I think we can rule out Odium influence on him, at least at the time the Diagram was written - whenever it was, we know it was before Taln showed up in Kholinar and was therefore before any Desolation could have started.  I note specifically that it is not until after Taln shows up that the Parshendi know of stormform and are able to capture the spren they need to go to stormform.  That could be a coincidence, but right now I'm leaning toward it not being one - it will be my contention for the time being that the Parshendi are incapable of becoming true voidbringers until Odium's influence on Roshar is released again, which appears to be the case as it stands at this moment.

I hope he winds up an ally, but right now I'm leaning towards unintentional bad guy.  The Niall comp is apt - he thinks he's right, wants to do right for it, but has totally misjudged both his own rightness and what is actually going on.

I think the timing is a bit more unknown as far as Taln showing up before the Parshendi rediscovered stormform. It's unclear how long Eshonai's sister knew about it before it actually happened.

[Mulk]

Just now, The Invested Beard said:

I think the timing is a bit more unknown as far as Taln showing up before the Parshendi rediscovered stormform. It's unclear how long Eshonai's sister knew about it before it actually happened.

You may be right; I'm just rolling with this as a working hypothesis for now.  I'm totally open to revising it later as it becomes more clear.  And to elaborate/correct myself above, Venli possibly did know of stormform (she says she got it from the songs) but I don't know that they would actually have had the capability to capture a voidspren to force the transition until after.  There has to be a reason the parshmen/parshendi never even once by accident turned stormform, right?  The way it describes form changing, you go into a storm performing certain rituals to try to attract the "right" spren for the form you want which makes it seem like sometimes you come out as something else.

Or it could be they are simply (as constituted prior to Eshonai's transformation) not attractive enough as mostly subsistence chattel slaves (in the case of the parshmen) or as relatively peaceful Parshendi.

[Toaster Retribution]

I am rooting for Mr. T the unintentional villain, since I feel it would be the most interesting storyline. If we have several factions instead of just two, things are bound to be more interesting. 

I defenitely NOT want a mind controlled Mr. T, just as I dont want a mind-controlled Amaram, Mraize, Ishar or other potential villains. There are more interesting things to do than mind control, most of the time.

Life before Death is by the way open to interpretation. Mr. T goes life before death since he puts the life of humanity before the deaths of parts of it. Kaladins defenition of it isn't the only one.

 

[rjl]

30 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Given the time periods we are talking about here, and how Odium seems to be bound between Desolations so that he can't hop elsewhere, I think we can rule out Odium influence on him, at least at the time the Diagram was written - whenever it was, we know it was before Taln showed up in Kholinar and was therefore before any Desolation could have started.

I agree that Odium was bound in some sense - but could he have been reaching out and influencing events in a small limited way?

Also it's possible that Taln didn't appear next to Kholinar, maybe he had travelled a great distance to get to Kholinar he could have first appeared somewhere else, though there is Wit's comment at the start of the chapter about the "world having pissed itself"which implies that perhaps it was that something had happened at that very moment.

24 minutes ago, Mulk said:

You may be right; I'm just rolling with this as a working hypothesis for now.  I'm totally open to revising it later as it becomes more clear.  And to elaborate/correct myself above, Venli possibly did know of stormform (she says she got it from the songs) but I don't know that they would actually have had the capability to capture a voidspren to force the transition until after.  There has to be a reason the parshmen/parshendi never even once by accident turned stormform, right? 

But could it instead be to do with what Gavilar did? (From the Oathbringer prologue):
 

Quote

“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

 

[Mulk]

1 minute ago, rjl said:

I agree that Odium was bound in some sense - but could he have been reaching out and influencing events in a small limited way?

Also it's possible that Taln didn't appear next to Kholinar, maybe he had travelled a great distance to get to Kholinar he could have first appeared somewhere else, though there is Wit's comment at the start of the chapter about the "world having pissed itself"which implies that perhaps it was that something had happened at that very moment.

But could it instead be to do with what Gavilar did? (From the Oathbringer prologue):

All possible.  In order -

1. Given Ruin's relative lack of ability to move people and events (it worked but took a devilishly long time to do it and his influence was mostly limited to spiked people) while being bound on the same world he was trying to destroy, I rather think Odium is going to have even less influence on Roshar.  Lacking the spiking of Scadrial, I'm wondering where he'd get his ability to influence across distance like that.  Not saying impossible, just saying I find it unlikely given limitations faced by another shard trying to influence a world toward destruction

2. The "World pissed itself" quote makes me lean against the second - I rather think Taln appeared fairly close at hand.

3. This is entirely possible.  I just don't think it's probable that they found and broke all spren interactions for all parshmen/Parshendi across the whole world; or captured all voidspren across the whole world. Not to mention their offspring across five thousand years.  Unless the black sphere contained all void spren (unlikely) I rather think that Gavilar saying that is an overstatement; it does make me incredibly curious what the source of that information is and if it is the same source that led Jasnah to believe the parshmen were voidbringers - I don't think we've seen those actual sources on screen yet.

 

I'm quite willing to be proven wrong about all this.  That's what makes boards like this fun - making predictions and theorizing and finding out what was right and what wasn't.

[rjl]

What if the Sphere contained the Odium equivalent of the Storm Father?

 

(Wild slightly off the wall theory)

Edited September 19, 2017 by rjl

[Calderis]

My opinion is that Taravangian will become the Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher, and that the Diagram, as much as he thinks it was all him, is heavily influenced by Cultivation. 

He's definitely the unintentional villain. 

[Toaster Retribution]

6 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Lacking the spiking of Scadrial, I'm wondering where he'd get his ability to influence across distance like that.  Not saying impossible, just saying I find it unlikely given limitations faced by another shard trying to influence a world toward destruction

It seems like the Unmade are doing most of the work on that front. Odium just sits at the sideline and encourages them and promising pay-rise.

[Mulk]

If that is the case...well, wow.  I don't see how the Stormfather could be bound in a sphere like that, but then the binding of something that is noncorporeal in most instances may lend itself to some oddities.  My personal theory is there isn't a single Odium equivalent to the Stormfather.  And in any case...we don't really know what happened to the sphere, do we?  At least, last I knew Szeth had it.  I don't have the books in front of me but the notes in both the coppermind and the stormlight wiki point to the interlude as a place that notes he hid it in Jah Keved.  But if Gavilar wanted to keep it away from the Parshendi, the implication (without further knowledge) is that the sphere cannot by itself grant transformation into a voidbringing form.

[The Invested Beard]

5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It seems like the Unmade are doing most of the work on that front. Odium just sits at the sideline and encourages them and promising pay-rise.

I think you meant "pay-Rayse".

[Mulk]

@The Invested Beard - lol

@Toaster Retribution - entirely possible.  We don't know a lot about them at this point, what they are up to other than they are bad.

I think this may come back to what exactly the Oathpact was and why it works to keep Rayse/Odium bound in system and to that world specifically.  I really hope we get some sort of flashback or interlude about it at some point. I'd love some illumination on it.

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm going with Option 2 out of sheer stupidity. T says it himself in his WoR interlude. So smart, so capable and so stupid at the same time. 

I know T as a Bondsmith is a very popular theory, but I'm always going to be against that. Save the world and accidentally destroy some parts of it: alright, you can't save the world without making some damage. Save the world by destroying it first: no thanks, we are good. Its the same reason why I really dislike Alethkar as a kingdom, and why it is so weak. You can't forge something strong out of destruction. T has the aggravant of trying to forge something strong through assasination and sabotage. At least the Three Musqueteers (Gavilar, Sadeas, Dalinar) had the decency to look you in the eye as they killed you. 

If they become allies...well, with allies like these who needs enemies .

[rjl]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm going with Option 2 out of sheer stupidity. T says it himself in his WoR interlude. So smart, so capable and so stupid at the same time. 

I know T as a Bondsmith is a very popular theory, but I'm always going to be against that. Save the world and accidentally destroy some parts of it: alright, you can't save the world without making some damage. Save the world by destroying it first: no thanks, we are good. Its the same reason why I really dislike Alethkar as a kingdom, and why it is so weak. You can't forge something strong out of destruction. T has the aggravant of trying to forge something strong through assasination and sabotage. At least the Three Musqueteers (Gavilar, Sadeas, Dalinar) had the decency to look you in the eye as they killed you. 

If they become allies...well, with allies like these who needs enemies .

Very apt comments there - hmm, I was suddenly made to think of Ardihol from Wheel of Time...

That said I'm still on the fence between options 1 and 2 at the moment I think there's a good chance of Brandon taking us down option 1 for a while.

Alternatively option3 is also a possibility - Mr T genuinely thinks he's doing good but he is somehow being subtly controlled by Odium/one of the unmade or something, possibly by selective provision or withholding of information or, who knows...

[iamstick]

I'd be amused if the Nightwatcher turns out to be an unmade but "Old Magic" probably predates that. Playing with black spheres and launching Taravangian aren't exactly the hallmarks of a "good guy" super spren. On the other hand, StormDaddy regularly destroys as well as infuses, so who am I to judge?

Going by the Parshendi, who were very happy to get rid of their old gods, the Nightwatcher was probably one and can be reasonably considered a force for chaos as personified by Taravangian as well as the nasty curses she inflicts. (I'm waiting for someone to start "milking" Lift's stormlight by feeding her unlimited amounts of food.)

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, iamstick said:

I'd be amused if the Nightwatcher turns out to be an unmade but "Old Magic" probably predates that. Playing with black spheres and launching Taravangian aren't exactly the hallmarks of a "good guy" super spren. On the other hand, StormDaddy regularly destroys as well as infuses, so who am I to judge?

Going by the Parshendi, who were very happy to get rid of their old gods, the Nightwatcher was probably one and can be reasonably considered a force for chaos as personified by Taravangian as well as the nasty curses she inflicts. (I'm waiting for someone to start "milking" Lift's stormlight by feeding her unlimited amounts of food.)

The Shards, and their associated spren, are not good or evil. 

The Diagram is perfectly aligned with Cultivation's intent. Strengthening the body through aggressive pruning. 

The Nightwatcher is Cultivation's spren. 

It's all speculation, but I'm all for Taravangian as a rival Bondsmith. The well intentioned villain who will use any means available. 

[17th Splinter]

I honestly think that Taravangarian will become an ally. He is smart and unless the Diagram says something about Urithiru then he'll probably see some sense. However, even if he tries to assassinate Dalinar, I don't think he'll succeed. Without Szeth he really doesn't have the ability to kill Dalinar easily. An offshoot of this, Szeth dying has probably put a huge wrench in his plans. That plus the Everstorm has hopefully thrown the Diagram out the window.

[Calderis]

45 minutes ago, 17th Splinter said:

That plus the Everstorm has hopefully thrown the Diagram out the window.

I think you are seriously underestimating Taravangian's dedication and resolve. 

[Nymeros]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

My opinion is that Taravangian will become the Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher, and that the Diagram, as much as he thinks it was all him, is heavily influenced by Cultivation. 

He's definitely the unintentional villain. 

Smart theory. Personally, I think he will be a Bondsmith though bound to the Stormfather. 

@17th Splinter: Really? The Diagram is one of the most unique and interesting concepts I've ever seen. You could legit focus an entire series in it. Why would you want it gone?

@OP: He basically has the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde thing going on (you know what I mean)

His smart self is a villian. His dumb self is a well intentioned villain.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Nymeros

[lastofus]

Ok guys I think you got it backward. Taravangian cannot be a Bondsmith ever. The second ideal of them is and I quote "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together."

To be a bondsmith, not only you have to unite (what Taravangian is trying to do) but also do not divide (which is trying to actively). He's using divide and conquer tactics to unite the whole world, which Gavilar tried in Alethi.

He doesn't want to work with the Surgebinders. As someone here cracked the code

Spoiler

Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return.

He knew the Knights Radiant will eventually return and found the reason they broke in the first place (See that it's not why they betrayed but why they broke). So he's ready to take on the whole lot of them. He's just binding his time, in the end, if our heroes want to succeed, they have to go through him. I don't think he'll get back to the light ever. But of course there's a chance that his smart self knew he had to die in the end for the plan to work, and his plans will eventually be finished by KR. 

 

EDIT: And we only saw some parts of the diagram. He wrote in every possible surface. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by lastofus

[Calderis]

@lastofus here is exactly why I disagree.

The every one of he oaths is open to interpretation. More about that in my thread here. (not a spoiler thread, so if you reply no OB stuff) 

If two Windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been broken, then yes, Taravangian will have broken that oath according to Dalinar, but in Taravangian's view everything he is doing is to unite the world under him. As he stated himself, you have to tear down a structure in order to build something stronger. Belief is what makes the Oaths hold. Taravangian believes what he is doing is the right course of action. 

And he doesn't want to work with surgebinders? Where does the code say that? It tells him to hold the secret in order to deal with the knew Knights yes. How is that prohibitive? He just needs it in order to break apart a group of surgebinders who could stand in his way. 

I'm certain that this new surgebinder who suddenly came forward "at the direction of their spren" was a Diagramist already. 

There is nothing anywhere in the books that shows that Radiants are good guys only. I think the Skybreakers are more than enough evidence to show that's not true. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Calderis

[lastofus]

I am not Brandon Sanderson and this is not my world. But from the things we have seen, There's a big difference between disagreeing with someone OR outright destroying them.

We saw from the in-book Words of Radiance that radiants disagreed with each other. But none of them sought a way to destroy their rivals because they were on the way.

I am going to emphasize something here. Consider that Taravangian don't believe in Almighty, Heralds or Radiants, he ONLY believes in the diagram and the man who wrote it.

Taravangian doesn't want to "share" the responsibility. 

Quote

If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.

Quote

You must become king. Of Everything

He doesn't want stability in Alethy.

Quote

Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify.

He doesn't want Radiants in his way, we won't try to reason with them, he's going to "remove" them.

Quote

You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return.

Any my last and most important argument. He doesn't care about how he achieves his goal, only that it needs to be reached. It's AGAINST the very first oath of Knight Radiants. He has as much of a chance to be a radiant as the sergeant who let Tien die. You got to do whatever it takes to survive. The diagram says:

Quote

Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison

 

But the first ideal is:

Quote

 

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

I don't need to explain it but: 

Quote

“Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.”

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by lastofus

[Calderis]

@lastofus I am sick of having this argument. I don't blame you for it. It was presented to us the way your interpreting it specifically to cause the emotional reaction your having, but the first oath is NOT what Teft presented to Kaladin. That's one interpretation, but not the only one.

I don't expect you to read the thread, but please look at the WoBs in the first post of the thread I shared. They make it abundantly clear that the first ideal is not nearly as restrictive as we've been lead to believe.

The most important point is that a Machiavellian would be accepted into multiple orders. If your unaware of what that is, Machiavelli the source of the phrase "the ends justify the means." and this would be welcome in both the Skybreakers, and Elsecallers. Most likely more. 

So let's look at Taravangian in the light of what we know of those two orders. For Elsecallers, the Inkspren look for people who are logic rather than emotion driven. Considering Taravangian himself considers the things he does morally reprehensible, he's following a path he logically believes is correct, putting aside his emotions in order to follow that path. Go for Elsecaller. 

Skybreakers are governed purely by law. In a feudal Monarchy, the king is the source of law. So it's feasible to think that in his own lands, if Taravangian were a Skybreaker, he could do just about anything at it would be legal. 

I honestly look forward to an "evil" Radiant showing up as much to end this line of argumentation as for the story implications at this point.