[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[Frostlander]

 

10 minutes ago, Kalinovsky said:

A lot of different forms are mentioned in the WOR epigraphs. Perhaps they learned how to take them on?

Given this description of Parshmen/ endi, it sounds like there might be a combination of folks with forms with more normal rhythms and with void?rhythms. (I'm assuming that they are referring to former Parshmen as "Parshmen" still.):

Quote

“ ‘The average parshman cannot write, so far as we can tell,’ ” the reply came. “ ‘But some are different—stronger, with strange powers. They do not speak like the others.’ ”

One guess, based on the treaties and the literacy, is that scholarform and mediationform are being used. It's also possible that some of the members of these groups have a void-version of those forms. (These would be the ones whose speech is different.)

Quote

Scholarform shown for patience and thought. Beware its ambitions innate. Though study and diligence bring the reward, Loss of innocence may be one’s fate. —From the Listener Song of Listing, 69th stanza

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 258). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Mediationform made for peace, it’s said. Form of teaching and consolation. When used by the gods, it became instead Form of lies and desolation. —From the Listener Song of Listing, 33rd stanza

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 279). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

[+robardin]

Speaking of Shallan's turning Bluth and Gaz into "better versions of themselves" -- I'm waiting for more Gaz/Kaladin, or at least Gaz/Bridge Four, interactions than we've seen.

I was looking forward to more sparks flying after Shallan looked over to see Gaz "rapidly backing away" after Shallan arrived at the Shattered Plains demanding to see Dalinar Kholin, only to run into Kaladin as the captain of his guards, and Kaladin saying Gaz was one of the "most hateful men he knew" who'd "tried to get me killed on multiple occasions".

Shallan then proceeds to develop a working (and maybe more than working) relationship with Kaladin, while Gaz is still following her around and finding books like Words of Radiance for her, with no further interaction with Kaladin or anyone else from Bridge Four.

C'mon, something's gotta blow up.

Edited September 19, 2017 by robardin

[Ryder]

2 minutes ago, Argent said:

Huh. I had assumed that's fine, since goats have rectangular pupils.

Yeah, horses normally have rectangular or oval-shaped pupils.

[Darvys]

Stil can't stop laughing whenever i remember Kaladin is running around impressing people with his radiancy while looking basicaly like a thug, way to give a lasting first impression.

[lastofus]

Oh Honor what chapters we got this week... November needs to come faster!

I got some theories ready... 

First... What's going on with the parshmen? I think they all got a command, hurt Roshar in anyway you can. Parshmen of Thaylenah took the ships, Parshmen of Azir doing negotiation, Parshmen in farms took the grains and other foods. I think that each time Everstorm goes through them they change a bit. For now they can accept commands, then they can transform to other dangerous forms.. after that... only Odium knows!

Second... You guys are all forgetting Jasnah! She's an Elsecaller who has seen most of the world. She went everywhere hunting new information. I think she will be the one to open most of the Oathgates. 

Third... Kaladin is going to Kholinar... I predict a fight there against the Parshendi, Kaladin has to open the gate for reinforcements. It's going to be a close thing.

Fourth... I am loving the new Elhokar. He will be a Radiant, and hopefully it'll happen soon.

Fifth... I was like what the storming storm... Taravangian is going to Urithiru. Nothing good will come of it. Ghostbloods, Diagrams and Sons of Honor all in one place.. Any other secret sects? But man if he really is a bondsmith. Can spren detect intents? I really want to know what happens.

Sixth... Loved Kholin brothers' scene. Renarin to the rescue yeay. And I totally can get behind the reviving theory. Adolin remembering Surblood, thinking Gallant could use the "company", thinking about how shardblades chose their owners. I am speechless.

Seventh... I have a feeling that Dalinar let the boy go... at least I hope so :(.

Edited September 19, 2017 by lastofus

[Rhaegar'Elin]

10.

- Peeping Spren! I imagined something along this lines:

Syl: "Go, Kaladin! Go!"

...

Kaladin: "Did you like it?"

Shallan: "That was... great."

Pattern: "Mmm... a powerful lie..."

- I really liked the interaction between the Kholin Brothers and it's nice having proof that Renarin wasn't hijacked by a Voidspren.

11.

Quote

"As I fear not a child with a weapon he cannot lift, I will never fear the mind of a man who does not think."

That's a quote from The Way of Kings that Dalinar quoted back in WoR. It sounds pretty ominous after this chapter.

12.

- I really hope Vstim (and Rysn, of course) is the Thaylen Merchant Navani used to contact the Shin XD

- Maybe it's a stupid question and I'm missing something but...

Quote

“Yes,” Navani said. “A Radiant needs to unlock the gate on this side— which we can do at any moment—then one has to travel to the destination city and undo the lock there as well. That done, a Radiant can initiate a transfer from either location.”

... who unlocked the gate in Urithiru when Shallan unlocked the Stormseat's one?

- I don't understand why Bondsmiths were supposed (if they really were: I'm not still convinced) to lead Radiants and people: I mean, Ishar seems more the Herald equivalent of an ASoIaF Maester than a leader. Nevertheless, I was really pleased with this turn of events: Highking Dalinar... sounds good to me.

Also, I really liked Elhokar in this chapter: it takes a lot of strength and courage to face our own fails and shortcomings... and he handled this pretty well: suddenly, an hypothetical story arc focused on him sounds more interesting.

Quote

If Dalinar failed everywhere else, at least he would have King Taravangian at his side.

In this book, there will be a time where Dalinar will think that things couldn't get any worse for him.

And Taravangian will be there, reminding him that things can always get worse.

[Toaster Retribution]

@Calderis Would you be kind enough to alert me if you find that Graves WoB you mentioned a couple of pages back. I'd love to see it.

Also @lastofus has a good point. Ghostbloods, Diagram and Sons of Honor in the same place will be cool. A Mraize vs Graves vs Amaram fight anyone?

[Elena]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also @lastofus has a good point. Ghostbloods, Diagram and Sons of Honor in the same place will be cool. A Mraize vs Graves vs Amaram fight anyone?

Imagine the satisfaction if they all kill each other!

[The Invested Beard]

Just now, Elena said:

Imagine the satisfaction if they all kill each other!

Ah I can see it now. A Rosharan Reservoir Dogs standoff.

[DSC01]

3 minutes ago, Ryder said:

I always thought that Shallan's resonance was her ability to take "memories" of a scene perfectly.  There's that epigraph in WoR that mentions the weird mnemonic abilities of the Lightweavers, which I think is a reference to their resonance.

I don't think that their mnemonic abilities are their Resonance; I think that they are the means by which they use their Surges. When Kaladin uses a Lashing, he just does it, like flexing a muscle. For Shallan's Lightweaving to be most effective, she has to draw the image first, and I think the taking of memories is related to how this works, as well. The reason, then, that she hasn't gotten the hang of Soulcasting is likely that she hasn't worked out the proper mnemonic device yet. That's not to say that this wouldn't tie into her Resonance, too, but the mnemonic abilities are, in my thinking, more than that (or even more basic than that, one might say).

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

Syl: "Go, Kaladin! Go!"

...

Kaladin: "Did you like it?"

Shallan: "That was... great."

Pattern: "Mmm... a powerful lie..."

Syl: Kaladin, remember your oaths!

Kaladin: Er... I will protect those who cannot protect themselves?

Syl: No. "Journey before destination."

 

[yulerule]

What I'm really looking for is Mr.T meeting Szeth. He's the one that really turned him into a mass murderer.

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Granted, I don't know that we have any official confirmation that Shallan's ability to help better turn into better versions of themselves is her Resonance, so my premise could be off here.

Shallan's resonance is her mnemonic device. Her ability to take memories. 

Edit:http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1088#60

Quote

ARGENT

Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

ARGENT

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.

ARGENT

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.

ARGENT

But some have more?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yea.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Calderis

[Ryder]

2 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I don't think that their mnemonic abilities are their Resonance; I think that they are the means by which they use their Surges. When Kaladin uses a Lashing, he just does it, like flexing a muscle. For Shallan's Lightweaving to be most effective, she has to draw the image first, and I think the taking of memories is related to how this works, as well. The reason, then, that she hasn't gotten the hang of Soulcasting is likely that she hasn't worked out the proper mnemonic device yet. That's not to say that this wouldn't tie into her Resonance, too, but the mnemonic abilities are, in my thinking, more than that (or even more basic than that, one might say).

Here's the WoB I'm basing that on, courtesy of @Argent (spoilered for length) :

Spoiler

ARGENT

Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

ARGENT

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.

ARGENT

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.

ARGENT

But some have more?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yea.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

7 minutes ago, Elena said:

Imagine the satisfaction if they all kill each other!

What? No! I love all three. I just want to see them have an epic fight, with maybe one casualty. 

[swieczq]

I haven't had time to read all pages of this thread, but from what i've seen most people think Mr. T is Bad News™ - IMO he's not as bad as most think.

True, in the future he'll try to take the "highking" seat, but at the moment he's not in position to do it. At the moment he's in position to truly help Dalinar unite Roshar - having Diagram and lots of other resources.

#VoteForMrT!

Edited September 19, 2017 by swieczq

[+robardin]

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Ghostbloods, Diagram and Sons of Honor in the same place will be cool. A Mraize vs Graves vs Amaram fight anyone?

Graves: The Good

Amaram: The Bad

Mraize: The Ugly

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm only up to page 7, apologies if what I say has been mentioned since then.

There is a fourth person with a Rhysadium: Redin, bastard of Jah Keved

I agree Graves was acting on his own as he thought Dalinar would become an ally if he became king of Alethkar. BUT I also think T sent him orders to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar and he complied believing he had been right but had taken too long, so Dalinar was now an enemy. 

On T working with Dalinar... I was never too fond of the Digram. After finishing the reread of the first two books my veredict until I see otherwise is thus: Mr T said it himself, at extreme points of intelligence and stupidity they become the same thing. Super dumb T can't rule, and neither can super smart T. On the day T did the Diagram he was so smart he was dumber than a doorknob. Expecting any true logic out of the Diagram is like expecting a child who never got burnt to know not to touch fire. Yes, every step of the Diagram is logical, but it completely lacks common sense. T thinks of the Diagram as his god, he isn't going to dump his god over some tiny changes like finding Urithiru! He will continue faithfully sticking to his god like a dog to a bone. He will come to Urithiru, and try to either pry appart Dalinar's authority or kill him at some point to try to get his power. 

[yulerule]

Regarding resonance - Lightweavers get Mnemonic abilities (I think it differs from individual to individual), Windrunners get squires that can use stormlight ( pretty useful - large group of super soldiers), Bondsmith sare able to co-opt other orders Surges, not sure to what extent. Truthwatchers - we'll see.

[Toaster Retribution]

Has anyone noted that Graves is the biggest Dalinar fanboy on Roshar? He is willing to murder in order to see him on the throne.

[Stark]

So this just blew my mind:

Quote

“You call the Stormfather… well, Father. Right? So he birthed you?”

“Maybe? I think so? Helped shape me, is more like it. Helped us find our voices.” She cocked her head. “Yes. He made some of us. Made me.”

The stormfather made some the spren.  The honorspren, splinters of Honor are Made.

 

And nine were Unmade?

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 hours ago, vividox said:

Oh wow, that Taravanagian ending, tho. Really stacking the dominos to fall, aren't we, Mr. Sanderson?

Syl-voyeur is... uh, interesting.

Renarin is awkward as ever, but now he has POWERS! I get the sense that he really does believe he's Odium's champion...

Kind of missing Shallan and Mraize right now. 

I don't like seeing posts get "unfairly" downvoted, but I'm out of upvotes at the moment, promise to upvote you to even out the downvote as soon as I get them refreshed.

Edit, nevermind I see someone already saw to it

Edited September 19, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Hischier]

@Spicker Yeah, I agree, that Dalinar totally could've done it.  But BS has shown a kid being killed in his books before (and in a pretty gruesome way).  I don't think he'd hesitate to write that scene. His books are generally not as "gritty" as other modern fantasy books, but he hasn't restrained from showing violence.

[Calderis]

@Toaster Retribution @robardin took a while, but I found it. Reddit WoBs get me every time. 

Graves did NOT want Dalinar dead. Period. 

Quote

Ray745

Graves tells Kaladin and Moash that with Elhokar out of the way, Dalinar would become king and be much better for Alethkar. Obviously Graves isn't totally truthful with them, he is working for the Diagram and wants Dalinar to be king in hopes he becomes the Blackthorn, the warlord, and provides no real competition to Taravangian in becoming king of everything. However, in the scene when Kaladin faces down Graves and Moash, Graves makes a comment on how it was too late, and he just had to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar, presumably so Szeth could assassinate him. Then the last we see of Graves, he is talking to Moash and says

I thought for sure my interpretation was correct, that if we removed Elhokar, Dalinar would become our ally is what is to come.

How would Dalinar become their ally if Graves was purposely keeping Kaladin away from Dalinar so Szeth could kill him? Is Graves lying to Moash there? That part I never fully understood. It seems as though Graves understands Dalinar is going to be assassinated, yet from what he says to Moash at the end he seems to expect Dalinar would not have been killed.

Brandon Sanderson

Graves is supposed to (though people missed this, so perhaps I didn't do it well enough) indicate that the Diagram is not simply one group, following Taravangian. They follow the diagram itself, not him, and some think his interpretations are wrong.

Graves was ordered to remove the Alethi leadership entirely--though Taravangian was sending Szeth after Dalinar (the more dangerous one) and Graves was to remove Elhokar. Graves, however, interpreted the diagram differently. He thinks that Dalinar cannot be killed by Szeth, or anyone, and is hoping to remove Elhokar, have Dalinar step up, and help them. He has passages of the Diagram that indicate, to him, this is the natural outcome of removing Elhokar.

The actual passages, and what it is they're trying to accomplish in specific, has yet to be revealed in full

Spoiler

 

 

 

Spoilered for size of Reddit embed. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Calderis

[Elena]

Guys one thing... I know we all keep forgetting about it, but what about Elhokar's son? His infant son? Safe, or is he a goner? What the hell is happening in Kholinar, I need to know yesterday.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Elena