The Side Effects of Combining Windrunner Surges is Rather Boring

[Fourth Of The Night]

2 hours ago, Velvet Thunder said:

I’ve seen many people, normally exceptional at what they do, perform worse than someone with no training because their minds were somewhere else, depressed and off their game. People who would normally stun you with skill reduced to average untrained ability.

Of course, there is no specific WoB that can confirm either way, so perhaps someone should ask next time we have the opportunity. Until then, let the friendly debates continue!

I'm actually stubborn enough that I'll add this underneath my Kandra question when I go to the signing in San Diego, and forego another that I had planned. :3

[Kier]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

The implication from WoR is that Kal has always been under the influence of the bond. Can you think of any reasons that Sanderson would choose to have Kaladin and Syl indicate that his talent with a spear as an effect of the Nahel bond if the two are truly unrelated? I cannot. 

It's not as if he has abandoned the idea that Kaladin shared his bond even in childhood......

I find it likely that Shallan also had her incredible artistic ability from her own bond in much the same way.

Where are you getting this? 

Kal questions Syl if that is the case. but it is never confirmed. In fact It is stated by Teft and Syl that Stormlight can't turn a man into something he is not. AND it is very very clear that after Tien died that Kal nearly killed himself training. He is amazing with a spear - without the bond, and with it a paragon. And to say anything else is blatently ignoring the text.  

[Nymeros]

34 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

Because you are being needlessly combative and rude. Reign yourself in, dude, we're all friends connected by the love of an artist's works. We're big kids and can disagree without slinging vitriol, kolo?

......adding nothing to the discussion. Le sigh.

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That isn't the implication that I got. As mentioned by @Starla above, Syl says that she searched for Kal for a long time before finding him about a year before she first spoke to him. Yes, the fact that he is a literal paragon with the spear is due to his bond, but he is himself a very knowledgeable spearfighter

As I said before, and you brushed away seemingly without much thought: Depression is Hell. Intense depression, coupled with the fact that he was heavily injured would do more to Kal that you seem to be willing to admit. Also, while Kal's spearfighting ability isn't based in his bond-He is used to his spear forms while he has it. That means that he would move his body in a way that assumes he has the extra speed, strength, and balance of someone with the bond. Suddenly not having access to those three things, on top of his crippling depression and injury? I absolutely see why he was unable to perform. But that doesn't mean that his knowledge of spearfighting is because of his bond.

Okay, here is the exchange:

Kal: "It's like when I first picked up a spear. I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?"

Syl: "No and yes."

Kal: "It can't be both."

Syl: "It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you."

Kal: "So everything I've done, my skill with the spear, the way I fight. That's not me. It's you."

Syl: "It's us."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Nonsense. You practice every day.

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of talent."

 

What does it mean that the wind knew Kal?

Sounds to me like he already had a bond with spren as a child before Syl found him and that his talent is a result ofthat bond. 

 

And yes I'm aware that Kal was partially dumping on himself while training but given the above, i see no reason for that to be the only thing at play.

[Kier]

11 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Syl: "It's us."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Nonsense. You practice every day.

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of talent."

 

What does it mean that the wind knew Kal?

Sounds to me like he already had a bond with spren as a child before Syl found him and that his talent is a result ofthat bond. 

Are you kidding me? This exchange proves you are wrong. 

"IT'S US." 

Aka its not me. its not the bond. its because of who you are AND the bond. 

Syl "Nonsense. You Practice Every Day." 

"The Advantage of Talent." 

If she was saying that it was her and the bond it would read like this.

Syl: "It's the Bond."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Its not unearned, you made the bond, that is where it comes from."

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of a bond."

[Fourth Of The Night]

8 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

......adding nothing to the discussion. Le sigh.

Your superior attitude adds nothing to the discussion, either. It actually hinders it, so maybe take our advice?

9 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Kal: "It's like when I first picked up a spear. I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?"

Syl: "No and yes."

Kal: "It can't be both."

Syl: "It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you."

Kal: "So everything I've done, my skill with the spear, the way I fight. That's not me. It's you."

Syl: "It's us."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Nonsense. You practice every day.

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of talent."

This implies that his spearfighting ability does not come from the bond, that it comes from his practice and talent. Yes, his increased physical capabilities absolutely affect his abilities, but that does not mean they come from the bond.

11 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

What does it mean that the wind knew Kal?

Sounds to me like he already had a bond with spren as a child before Syl found him and that his talent is a result ofthat bond. 

We don't know, but I do not believe that it means he was already bonded. To me, it means that they knew of his potential. The bond doesn't happen before a spren finds the person, as far as we know. We know that spren are aware of candidates for the bond from Wyndle and the Cultivationspren council deciding who they wanted to send him to. Honorspren are linked to windspren somehow, so why is it so hard to believe that the windspren acknowledged Kal's candidacy and relayed it to Syl, subconsciously?

 

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Kier said:

Where are you getting this? 

Kal questions Syl if that is the case. but it is never confirmed. In fact It is stated by Teft and Syl that Stormlight can't turn a man into something he is not. AND it is very very clear that after Tien died that Kal nearly killed himself training. He is amazing with a spear - without the bond, and with it a paragon. And to say anything else is blatently ignoring the text.  

I don't think his skill comes from Stormlight. I think that he has a lesser bond with wind spren that give him his fighting talent and super dodging abilities.

I think it's similar to the greater and lesser bonds that men have with Blades and Plate respectively. 

I think Shallan has a simlar bond that provides her super!drawing skills.

1 hour ago, Kier said:

Are you kidding me? This exchange proves you are wrong. 

"IT'S US." 

Aka its not me. its not the bond. its because of who you are AND the bond. 
 

Eh.....I take us when used in such a context to mean 'you and I both.'

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Syl "Nonsense. You Practice Every Day." 

"The Advantage of Talent." 

If she was saying that it was her and the bond it would read like this.

Syl: "It's the Bond."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Its not unearned, you made the bond, that is where it comes from."

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of a bond."

If Syl/spren/bonds played no part in Kaladins natural ability with a spear in his youth, Syl could have just said "Its you." What part does the bond play in Kals youthful talent in your opinion? You did indicate that 'us' included the nahel bond.

1 hour ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

This implies that his spearfighting ability does not come from the bond, that it comes from his practice and talent. Yes, his increased physical capabilities absolutely affect his abilities, but that does not mean they come from the bond.

Eh. I think his natural ability and talent (and super dodging) comes from his bond. His training allows him his overall skill level. Stormlight then pushed that skill to its limits.

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Honorspren are linked to windspren somehow, so why is it so hard to believe that the windspren acknowledged Kal's candidacy and relayed it to Syl, subconsciously?

No I definitely think that's the case. We agree on this point; we just disagree about whether this constitutes a specific magical bond.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Nymeros

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

He is used to his spear forms while he has it. That means that he would move his body in a way that assumes he has the extra speed, strength, and balance of someone with the bond. Suddenly not having access to those three things, on top of his crippling depression and injury?

So much this. Even Zahel agrees. Making Renarin relearn his own strength, how to walk with Plate, trust its strength, etc... It's all to hone his instincts for combat with the bonuses provided by Plate. Take away that Plate from someone who trained extensively with it, and those altered instincts will show up when training without it.

That manner of instincts bleeding through is why Kaladin got his hand chopped by Szeth. He was so used to training and fighting against normal soldiers that his instinct to block bled through when facing a Shardblade. His combat instincts have been heightened by practice with Stormlight, which lets him translate that boosted speed and balance into a pseudo-boosted reaction time, something that he(and/or Dalinar) notes about Szeth when facing him. Stormlight boosted strength also allows him to shrug off some level of injury while fighting.

Take away that boosted speed, take away that ability to ignore injury, take away that level of perfection, something fill just feel.. off, even if he is still in tip-top shape(which he wasn't.) In the future, we can add to that a method of fighting incorporating the usage of lashings(like Szeth has). Losing that will throw them off even more.

Moral of the Story: The longer you spend practicing/living with artificial augmentations/specializations, the more dependent on them you become, the more incompetent you will be without them.

20 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Sure. Syl is wrong, Kaladin is wrong, the arena fight was partially Kaladin imagining things and Brandon is wasting his time writing this into the story.

Now that what Syl actually said has been provided, not exactly(doesn't make you right either, so don't get too excited that I'm admitting I was wrong).

• Syl is right about talent and practice. Talent is not some mystical concept. It exists on the real world.
• Kaladin is half-right. Talent is an advantage, but practice and training can match/surpass talent, and even surpass unfair advantages in some cases.
  • His skill in fighting is from practice and talent. His extreme skill in fighting is from using Stormlight, which is not the same thing as being "from the bond."
• What does the arena fight have do with this?
• Brandon writes things because he feels that he should. He's gotten rather adept at misdirection in the past decade

Bottom line: All other things being equal, the more skilled party wins the fight. All things being unequal, the more skilled party wins the fight, barring unfair advantage.

Gavilar is a better swordsman than Szeth. Szeth had Surgebinding, giving him an unfair advantage, yet Gavilar nearly killed him anyway.

[Nymeros]

15 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Take away that boosted speed, take away that ability to ignore injury, take away that level of perfection, something fill just feel.. off, even if he is still in tip-top shape(which he wasn't.) In the future, we can add to that a method of fighting incorporating the usage of lashings(like Szeth has). Losing that will throw them off even more.

....You know i agree on these points.

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Syl is right about talent and practice. Talent is not some mystical concept. It exists on the real world.

Hey, healing isn't a mystic concept either but it can still be granted via magic.

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What does the arena fight have do with this?

Remember when Kaladin starts dodging blows by something deeper than instinct and starts feeling as if he is the wind? I think that relates to a bond with wind spren and lends itself to his fighting talent.

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Brandon writes things because he feels that he should. He's gotten rather adept at misdirection in the past decade

What do you think he is directing us away from by alluding to Syl and Kals bond stretching back to his childhood in some form or another?

[The One Who Connects]

On 9/29/2017 at 1:29 PM, Nymeros said:

1. ....You know I agree on these points.
2. Hey, healing isn't a mystic concept either but it can still be granted via magic.
3. Remember when Kaladin starts dodging blows by something deeper than instinct and starts feeling as if he is the wind? I think that relates to a bond with wind spren and lends itself to his fighting talent.
4. What do you think he is directing us away from by alluding to Syl and Kal's bond stretching back to his childhood in some form or another?

1. I'm aware you agree. Those were concluding my statement that was responding to the other person, which is why they were above where I quoted you.
2. Healing isn't exactly on the same wavelength as talent. Magically-granted healing is a useful power to augment your skills. Magically-granted talent, besides making your own skills seem useless in retrospect, is a can of worms.
   • If talent in fighting is part of the bond itself(just the bond, not order specific), then why are/were there KR who did not fight? If the ability to fight is part of their innate powers, then they would likely be expected to fight. It feels off that people who are magically granted fighting talent didn't make use of it.
   • If it is order specific(making it decided by the "flavor" of the Spren), then what might the other's get? Shallan's Memory thing is her Resonance(making it the surges, which you previously stated you were not talking about), and her artistic temperament is something that most of the Order shared, but not all. What other fancy thing could she get from her bond?
3. I'll have to check the scene itself. (see below)
4. Who says he has to be directing you away from something?

---

Ok, regarding the arena scene:

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   The wind began to blow around him. Syl returned to him, zipping through the air as a ribbon of light.
   Wind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their blades aside with the helm. He couldn't attack—didn't dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.
   Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between the Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt—impossibly—that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.
   The Shardbearers cursed, trying again and again. The crowd was growing louder. He leaped one attack, then stepped just to the side of another.
   You could not kill the wind. You could not stop it. It was beyond the touch of men. It was infinite. . . .
   His Stormlight ran out.
   Kaladin stumbled to a halt. He tried to suck in more, but he spheres were drained.
   Relis attacked and Kaladin barely scrambled out of the way. His back hit the wall of the arena.

Some things of note:

• This "could've dodged just as well with his eyes closed" sounds suspiciously like Atium.
• The "winds urging him" feels a little like when someone is reacting to Atium Shadows.
• His ability to do this is very clearly something that requires Stormlight, as he barely dodges Relis without Stormlight.
  • Requiring Stormlight should rule out anything pre-bond.

Also of note is that as of WoR Chapter 44, Kaladin considered his skill with the spear as being due to "training long and hard." When did the discussion between Kal and Syl happen in relation to this?

[Nymeros]

9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

1. If talent in fighting is part of the bond itself(just the bond, not order specific), then why are/were there KR who did not fight? If the ability to fight is part of their innate powers, then they would likely be expected to fight. It feels off that people who are magically granted fighting talent didn't make use of it.

Talent here would be his ability to read his opponents and the environment, his agility and grace and dexterity. A Windrummer might be an awesome dancer for example.

Every Radiant has access to Plate and Blade and increased strength speed and durability but we know there were non combatants among the Orders. Just because you have a certain power doesn't mean you have to fight.

You can have a Windrunner who leads and take actions to protect but who chooses not to engage in violence. Why would that be an issue?

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If it is order specific(making it decided by the "flavor" of the Spren), then what might the other's get? Shallan's Memory thing is her Resonance(making it the surges, which you previously stated you were not talking about), and her artistic temperament is something that most of the Order shared, but not all. What other fancy thing could she get from her bond?

It's totally her artistic ability and unholy acting talent imo. I'm sure not every Lightweaver drew......the failed warrior Lightweaver for example probably never sat around sketching.

Sykybreakers get the ability to accurately gauge guilt.

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Requiring Stormlight should rule out anything pre-bond.

Or that scene is just the result of Stormlight amping the talent granted by his bond.

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Also of note is that as of WoR Chapter 44, Kaladin considered his skill with the spear as being due to "training long and hard." When did the discussion between Kal and Syl happen in relation to this?

Chapter 54

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nymeros

[The One Who Connects]

On 9/30/2017 at 11:48 PM, Nymeros said:

Talent here would be his ability to read his opponents and the environment, his agility and grace and dexterity. A Windrunner might be an awesome dancer for example.

Every Radiant has access to Plate and Blade and increased strength speed and durability but we know there were non combatants among the Orders. Just because you have a certain power doesn't mean you have to fight.

See, this is what you should've done from the start. Would've made for less miscommunication since this makes a lot more sense. In general, fleshing out ideas is also good for discussion value, which is a plus on a discussion forum.

I considered Plate, but we know that you can decline having it(and some KR did). This undefined talent granted by the bond wasn't something they could refuse. That's why it felt off back when you just said "fighting talent." Blade is a little harder to refute like that, but the shapeshifting thing helps. It's a lot easier to get around having a magical sword forced upon you when you can change it into anything else(like a dagger, a hammer, or a fork ) You also don't have to summon it, whereas talent seemed like something more innate and harder to not make use of.

On 9/30/2017 at 11:48 PM, Nymeros said:

It's totally her artistic ability and unholy acting talent imo. I'm sure not every Lightweaver drew......the failed warrior Lightweaver for example probably never sat around sketching.

Skybreakers get the ability to accurately gauge guilt.

You would be right that it wasn't all drawing, Lightweavers were largely those who pursued "The Arts," which is one of the most diverse categories you can get. Art, Literature, Sculpting, Music, Painting, etc.. It's also of note that the failed recruit's failure was because of a lack of self-realization, rather than a lack of artistic skill(not that you were implying that, just adding facts for the sake of overall clarity). I'm still a little reticent about it being her skill in acting/drawing, but I can see where you're coming from.

I do agree about the Skybreakers being a walking Aon Kii, at least until Brandon nails down what their Resonance is. If that guilt sense is their Resonance, is there anything else we could use as a potential fancy talent? or do we just not know enough about them yet?

---

Edit: Given "The Arts," would a profession that has been referred to as an artisan of some sort count?

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ar·ti·san

ˈärdəzən/

noun

noun: artisan; plural noun: artisans

1. a worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand.

   synonyms:

   craftsman, craftswoman, craftsperson; More

Craftsmen, skilled trade, making things by hand. Something like a woodworker or metalworker would count, maybe a carpenter, and many more. That could make for a fascinating diversity of backstories for this new generation of Lightweavers.

---

On 9/30/2017 at 11:48 PM, Nymeros said:

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Requiring Stormlight should rule out anything pre-bond.

Or that scene is just the result of Stormlight amping the talent granted by his bond.

Either way, if it's something granted by his bond it should rule out anything that happened pre-bond. I can accept that the arena fight was some sort of Stormlight Boosted version of his baseline ability since there is precedent for those types of powers in the Cosmere, so it seems like we largely agree here.

On 9/30/2017 at 11:48 PM, Nymeros said:

Chapter 54

Thank you. Unless Syl can read his mind at that point, she didn't "hear" him think that back in Chap 44. Meaning that her statements about "lots of practice and the advantage of talent" were her own words rather than throwing Kaladin's words back at him to calm him down. Not sure if there's something big in that distinction, but it was there to be made.

Edited October 2, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Edit: A thought on the Arts

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

See, this is what you should've done from the start. Would've made for less miscommunication since this makes a lot more sense. In general, fleshing out ideas is also good for discussion value, which is a plus on a discussion forum.

Yeahhhhh, I kind of got the feeling that some people thought that I was indicating that Windrunners could pick up weapons and, with no training or experience, demonstrate skilled use of those weapons.....that was my mistake. 

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I do agree about the Skybreakers being a walking Aon Kii, at least until Brandon nails down what their Resonance is. If that guilt sense is their Resonance, is there anything else we could use as a potential fancy talent? or do we just not know enough about them yet?

I dont know what it could be man.  

I've read Stormlight many times and I still don't even understand how Gravity + Atmospheric Pressure = strong followers.....just....how???? Can someone explain to me how this makes sense?

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Edit: Given "The Arts," would a profession that has been referred to as an artisan of some sort count?

Craftsmen, skilled trade, making things by hand. Something like a woodworker or metalworker would count, maybe a carpenter, and many more. That could make for a fascinating diversity of backstories for this new generation of Lightweavers.

Yep. I'm sure we'll get artists of all kinds.

One of the things i'm most looking forward to with Stormlight is seeing the expanded Orders. I want to see knights speaking similar oaths, gaining realizations and communicating with one another about how they got there.

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I can accept that the arena fight was some sort of Stormlight Boosted version of his baseline ability since there is precedent for those types of powers in the Cosmere, so it seems like we largely agree here.

Oh snap!

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Nymeros said:

I've read Stormlight many times and I still don't even understand how Gravity + Atmospheric Pressure = strong followers.....just....how???? Can someone explain to me how this makes sense?

(A + B + Physics = D), where A = Power One, B = Power Two, & D = Resonance.
The issue is that we don't know anything about the Physics variable other than it's very difficult/confusing to explain.

4 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Thought that I was indicating that Windrunners could pick up weapons and, with no training or experience, demonstrate skilled use of those weapons.

Essentially.

7 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

One of the things I'm most looking forward to with Stormlight is seeing the expanded Orders. I want to see knights speaking similar oaths, gaining realizations and communicating with one another about how they got there.

Indeed. Interactions between different Orders and between members of the same Order will be quite fascinating to read.

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I've read Stormlight many times and I still don't even understand how Gravity + Atmospheric Pressure = strong followers.....just....how???? Can someone explain to me how this makes sense?

We have no idea how resonances work, just that they exist. It's confirmed that Shallan's mnemonic device is her Resonance. 

How does waveform manipulation and physical transmutation result in a memory mechanic like hers? 

Resonances are super weird. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Calderis

[Spoolofwhool]

The resonances do seem to be linked to one of the Divine Attributes associated with the Order though. 

[The One Who Connects]

14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The resonances do seem to be linked to one of the Divine Attributes associated with the Order though. 

This is a good point. Not sure what that would translate to for other worlds like Scadrial, but it's a starting point that we didn't have before

[thegatorgirl00]

2 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I've read Stormlight many times and I still don't even understand how Gravity + Atmospheric Pressure = strong followers.....just....how???? Can someone explain to me how this makes sense?

 

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

(A + B + Physics = D), where A = Power One, B = Power Two, & D = Resonance.
The issue is that we don't know anything about the Physics variable other than it's very difficult/confusing to explain.

My theory is that the Resonances have to do with a philosophical interpretation of the surges. 

Winrunners are the easiest to understand from this view. Gravitation is pulling objects towards another object. Adhesion is sticking two objects together. Thus, a Windrunner pulls men towards him as a leader and sticks them to one another to make a cohesive group. Sound farmiliar? 

The Lightweaver Resonance is a little trickier. I believe the mnemonic abilities involve illuminating/remembering some kind of image or knowledge and transforming it to some other form. The mnemonic abilities were all different, and I would want to see which elements of the abilities stayed the same to be sure. If my theory is correct, they should all involve using what is remembered in some way to transform it like Shallan does when she draws her memories. 

I don't think we know enough about the other Resonances to see how they fit in. If Sskybreakers separate innocent from guilty, then the division part is clear where it comes in. I also suspect Edgedancers ease friction in communicating to others,  from speculation based on Edgedancer. 

[thejopen27]

Kaladin gets several additional benifits besides the two surges. He can ride the storms in his dreams to see what is going on the world, he gets a spider-sense like awareness in battle from movements in the winds, and he gets squires.

I don't think the squires will actually be able to surgebind. I think they will just be stronger and quicker and be able to heal wounds with stormlight. 

Shallan has picture perfect memory, can have visions of things going one around the world by letting her mind drift (or something, she did those drawings of the crew of Wind's Pleasure and of Shalash) and may have some supernatural ability to lift spirits of people.

Lyft seems to be able to naturally understand what people are saying. (that's it so far)

It's been theorized that Skybreakers were naturally able to tell the guilty from the innocent.

[Exis]

Is there anything more to the Adhesion surge than a Full Lashing? In the Ars Arcanum, I think the surge is listed as the surge of pressure/vacuum and so far it seems way less useful than say Transformation or Gravitation. But... what if there are more uses for the full lashing - focused more on the vacuum/pressure side of things. Real-world flight is based more on the use of pressure differentials to produce lift/thrust (e.g. the aerofoil on a plane). This might not be incredibly useful if you also have Gravitation but another use of pressure in flight is jet engine technology. Could we see Jet-Stream windrunning once more oaths are sworn? Would also tie into the earlier mention of a shockwave. 

[thejopen27]

6 hours ago, Exis said:

Is there anything more to the Adhesion surge than a Full Lashing? In the Ars Arcanum, I think the surge is listed as the surge of pressure/vacuum and so far it seems way less useful than say Transformation or Gravitation. But... what if there are more uses for the full lashing - focused more on the vacuum/pressure side of things. Real-world flight is based more on the use of pressure differentials to produce lift/thrust (e.g. the aerofoil on a plane). This might not be incredibly useful if you also have Gravitation but another use of pressure in flight is jet engine technology. Could we see Jet-Stream windrunning once more oaths are sworn? Would also tie into the earlier mention of a shockwave. 

I believe it's the adhesion surge that allows Kaladin the superhero landings. When he lands from a high fall, a hallow of light and wind bursts out around him cushioning his fall. I also think it plays a role in his spider sense, he senses changes in air pressure and moves with the wind.