The Side Effects of Combining Windrunner Surges is Rather Boring

[StormWrath]

We know that each order has some unique ability that only they have from the combination of their surges, well it seems the windrunners unique ability is having squires, in my opinion that sounds boring as I expected it to be an ability related to power or making something interesting especially given how the Windrunners second surge of Adhesion isn't very useful I was rather hoping that the combination of windrunners surges will create something powerful and strong that will compensate for the weakness of Adhesion. Adhesion offcourse is one of the weakest surges especially when using it to fight other Surgebinder or Voidbringers, the Skybreakers have Division (the surge of destruction and decay) in addition to gravitation for God's sake. 

So back to the side effect of combining powers I was expecting something more related to individual power for example there are blatant hints in the books that combining the surges of Dustbringers which are Abrasion and Division can create fire, it also seems that a combination of Truthwatchers surges is what allows them to see the future as there isn't any surge that will simply allow you to see the future, so I was expecting something along these lines for the Windrunners as well and simply having squires sounds boring and not as cool as having another important Surgebinding ability.

And here's the WoB that indicates that the side effects of windrunners powers is really just having squires.

 

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Q:  You have stated that each Knights Radiant order gets their own unique ability, for lack of a better word, due to the combination of their surges. For instance, you have stated this ability for the Windrunners is strength of squires. My question - is this due to the Nahel bond, or just inherent in the surges combining. Would a non-Radiant get these abilities from the Honorblades, or would they be out of luck due to no Nahel bond?
 
A: Good question! The unique abilities have more to do with the powers interacting, same as how twinborn will often manifest some odd side effects of the powers interacting. But there are limitations. For example, Jezrien didn't actually have any squires, as none of the Heralds did.

 

[Calderis]

It's not just having squires. That's something that more Knights than just Windrunners have. It's strength and number of squires. 

As I said in another thread, until we see how squires behave for other orders, we won't know the strength of this resonance. 

If it's like I'm thinking though... It's pretty damnation strong. 

Say Lightweavers get squires. Let's say Shallan can have Gaz and Vathah infuse. They get a little bit faster and stronger and can heal. Cool beans. 

Now Kaladin has all of Bridge Four, and it sounds like they may actually get Windrunner powers. 

If that's how it works... That's insanely strong and every Windrunner gets to build their own little miniRadiant army. 

That's pretty freaking amazing. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Calderis

[Ansalem]

The Resonance of Windrunners is not just that they have squires. They aren't the only Order that has squires. They just have a lot more of them and their squires are likely stronger than the others as well in some way. It may not be super exciting, but I would consider it pretty powerful. Kaladin has, what, 20+ squires already and there's no telling what the limit is. But for the sake of argument, let's call the limit 30 squires. And some Orders don't have any squires or only one or two. Whether you think Adhesion is strong or not, you're comparing one Surgebinder to a whole squad of them. I don't really care how strong one Dustbringer is, they're going to lose against 30 Windrunners.

Another way to think about it is one spren makes one Surgebinder vs one spren makes an entire squad of them. It could easily turn out to be the strongest Resonance, especially if the limit is much higher than we've seen so far.

edit: And like Calderis said, it could be that Windrunner squires can actually surgebind compared to other Orders' squires only being able to get the basic benefits of stormlight. We just don't know yet.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Ansalem

[StormblessDave]

Windrunners definitely do not any boosts to their already amazing powers. The squire ability is a little too powerful, and adhesion is really useful! 

[IntentAwesome]

Anybody else think it's possible that it won't be just Bridge Four who are squires to Kaladin, but ALL of the bridgemen?

[+Extesian]

Bridge 4 are radiant with kaladin 1000 miles away, I doubt that strength applies to other orders. I think its a remarkable resonance.

And I have no doubt it works through Connection. No way other bridge crews would be connected enough to Kal. Bridge 4 though, they believe in him, they deify him, they bled for him and with him. That's strong connection. 

I wonder if family members for example could become squires or if the Connection needs to be based on recent shared experience. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Extesian

[Velvet Thunder]

9 hours ago, Extesian said:

Bridge 4 are radiant with kaladin 1000 miles away, I doubt that strength applies to other orders. I think its a remarkable resonance.

And I have no doubt it works through Connection. No way other bridge crews would be connected enough to Kal. Bridge 4 though, they believe in him, they deify him, they bled for him and with him. That's strong connection. 

I wonder if family members for example could become squires or if the Connection needs to be based on recent shared experience. 

Agreed, its extremely powerful and impressive. Interestingly, investiture becomes available to the radiant through the bond in the 'cracked' spirit web. I wonder if that this means  that the gravitation and adhesion surge resonance has to do with pulling (gravitation) the spirit webs towards the radiants and then binding them in some way (adhesion) together allowing investiture to flow into them also despite not having a bond in a cracked spirit web.. This would need to be someone with a strong connection, which would suggest family would absolutely be available to it in my opinion.

I. Love. This. Universe. And. Its. Magic.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Velvet Thunder

[Nymeros]

On 9/19/2017 at 2:16 AM, StormblessDave said:

Windrunners definitely do not any boosts to their already amazing powers. The squire ability is a little too powerful, and adhesion is really useful! 

I dunno.....Kaladin does owe his fighting ability and super dodging to his bond.

[Mulk]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

I dunno.....Kaladin does owe his fighting ability and super dodging to his bond.

I have a slight quibble with this.  Kaladin is a tremendous spearman - Teft notes this in his observations of Kaladin after he takes the second oath, that Stormlight can perfect, but it cannot grant what is not already there. So his fighting ability is not of the bond - his speed, reflexes, and ability to literally flip the battlefield are of the bond, but his ability to fight was already there.

[Nymeros]

39 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I have a slight quibble with this.  Kaladin is a tremendous spearman - Teft notes this in his observations of Kaladin after he takes the second oath, that Stormlight can perfect, but it cannot grant what is not already there. So his fighting ability is not of the bond - his speed, reflexes, and ability to literally flip the battlefield are of the bond, but his ability to fight was already there.

Eh, Syl and Kal both acknowledge that his skill comes from their bond, and when the bond breaks, Kal finds he cannot even perform basic drills and stances with his spear any longer. He even findd himself droppimg it. The only natural combat advantage he has is his immense size.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Nymeros

[forgedpig]

he also kind of had a shattered leg, and he was depressed and both of those probably would make it extraordinarily difficult to do spear things. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by forgedpig

[Shuffel]

4 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Eh, Syl and Kal both acknowledge that his skill comes from their bond, and when the bond breaks, Kal finds he cannot even perform basic drills and stances with his spear any longer. He even findd himself droppimg it. The only natural combat advantage he has is his immense size.

Meh... Not really fair. His leg was crushed. Brandon is probably trying to keep it a mystery. 

[Fourth Of The Night]

4 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Eh, Syl and Kal both acknowledge that his skill comes from their bond, and when the bond breaks, Kal finds he cannot even perform basic drills and stances with his spear any longer. He even findd himself droppimg it. The only natural combat advantage he has is his immense size.

Yeah, also going to have to disagree with this. As someone who has crippling depression, I can tell you how hard it is to do things, even tasks that are completely rote, when a particularly bad depressive spell hits. Not to mention his leg.

[Crucible of Shards]

I would like to point out that there's no rule that says all Resonances have to be combat focused, or even relatively close to each other in significance or power.

[stonedshaman]

So what you people are telling me is:  Adolin won't revive his blade but instead become a squire to Kaladin?  I think that their bromance gives them a close enough connection bahahaha.  Btw mostly joking 

Edited September 27, 2017 by stonedshaman

[Nymeros]

4 hours ago, Shuffel said:

Meh... Not really fair. His leg was crushed. Brandon is probably trying to keep it a mystery. 

......so Kal couldn't hold or thrust with a spear properly because his leg was hurting? And Kal couldn't determine how much his leg was impacting his ability? Hrrmmm

4 hours ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

Yeah, also going to have to disagree with this. As someone who has crippling depression, I can tell you how hard it is to do things, even tasks that are completely rote, when a particularly bad depressive spell hits. Not to mention his leg.

Luckily, Syl and Kal had already confirmed that his skill was a result of their bond sooo........? Not sure what there is to debate here when it's spelled out clearly.

[Shuffel]

10 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

......so Kal couldn't hold or thrust with a spear properly because his leg was hurting? And Kal couldn't determine how much his leg was impacting his ability? Hrrmmm

I would believe thrusting a spear with a wounded leg is difficult. So when did Syl bond with Kal? Kal was good with a spear pretty early on in his life.

[The One Who Connects]

32 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Luckily, Syl and Kal had already confirmed that his skill was a result of their bond sooo........? Not sure what there is to debate here when it's spelled out clearly.

Wouldn't be the first time an in-world character has been wrong.  Wouldn't be the first time we've disagreed with Syl/Pattern either.

And then there is Brandon:

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ZenBossanova

I said since Shallan has a unique ability of Memory from her blended surges, is fighting what Kaladin has?

Brandon Sanderson

No. His unique ability is “Strength of Squires”.

Edited September 28, 2017 by The One Who Connects
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[shadowwisp]

On 9/19/2017 at 0:23 AM, StormWrath said:

especially given how the Windrunners second surge of Adhesion isn't very useful I was rather hoping that the combination of windrunners surges will create something powerful and strong that will compensate for the weakness of Adhesion. Adhesion offcourse is one of the weakest surges especially when using it to fight other Surgebinder or Voidbringers

I suspect that the term Adhesion is a misunderstanding on the Rosharians part (similar to how Scadrians mixed up "weight" for "mass").

Note that the Ars Arcanum says of Adhesion is "The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum." 

The term "Full Lashing" does not really fit as well since they are not manipulating gravity. Instead I believe that Windrunners are creating areas of absolute vacuum whenever something touches an area infused with a Full Lashing. 

The Gravity Surge has Basic lashings and it's opposite counterpart: Reverse Lashings.

If "Full Lashings" also has an opposite counterpart, what would it be? How about an intense wave of air pressure? 

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A crack shook the air, like an enormous clap of thunder, though the sky was completely clear. Teft stumbled back—having just set the bridge in place—and found himself gaping with the rest of Bridge Four. Kaladin exploded with energy. A burst of whiteness washed out from him, a wave of white smoke. Stormlight. The force of it slammed into the first rank of Parshendi, tossing them backward, and Teft had to hold his hand up against the vibrancy of the light.

That would fit the theme of Windrunners quite nicely don't you think? Note that we have seen several radiants say their oaths, but only Kaladin has created a shockwave, for both his second and third oath. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Nymeros]

4 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I would believe thrusting a spear with a wounded leg is difficult. So when did Syl bond with Kal? Kal was good with a spear pretty early on in his life.

I wouldn't believe that pain to his leg would cause a man to be unable to move his arms properly, or weaken his fingers to the point that he cannot keep a grip on a weapon he has used for years or make the weapon feel off balance in his hands......

By your logic im surprised Kaladin wasn't constantly dropping his crutch and knocking it about, the poor injured bastard. 

I find it more likely that Kal has simply never used a weapon without the aidof his bond.

As for your question, naturally I cannot provide a definitive answer as the text is ambiguous. Apparently, the nahel bond has somehow impacted Kaladin since childhood.

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Wouldn't be the first time an in-world character has been wrong.  Wouldn't be the first time we've disagreed with Syl/Pattern either.

And then there is Brandon:

Sure. Syl is wrong, Kaladin is wrong, the arena fight was partially Kaladin imagining things and Brandon is wasting his time writing this into the story.

My post has nothing to do with the play between Kaladin surges so I find the quote concerning resonances useless.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Nymeros

[Shuffel]

5 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I wouldn't believe that pain to his leg would cause a man to be unable to move his arms properly, or weaken his fingers to the point that he cannot keep a grip on a weapon he has used for years or make the weapon feel off balance in his hands......

By your logic im surprised Kaladin wasn't constantly dropping his crutch and knocking it about, the poor injured bastard. 

I find it more likely that Kal has simply never used a weapon without the aidof his bond.

As for your question, naturally I cannot provide a definitive answer as the text is ambiguous. Apparently, the nahel bond has somehow impacted Kaladin since childhood.

Sure. Syl is wrong, Kaladin is wrong, the arena fight was partially Kaladin imagining things and Brandon is wasting his time writing this into the story.

My post has nothing to do with the play between Kaladin surges so I find the quote concerning resonances useless.

Hey buddie. You are getting a bit cancerous, I'm just trying to have a friendly debate.

Legs are huge part of all fighting and sports. That's where your power and control comes from.

As for dropping the spear? You believe his lack of bond is the reason he dropped it?

[Starla]

 

@Nymeros I agree with others who say Kaladin has a natural talent with the spear. I'm currently re-reading WOK and read this scene yesterday:

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Kal growled in anger and pain, snatching his quarterstaff from the ground and leaping at Jost. The older boy cursed, stumbling backward as he raised his weapon. Kal bellowed, slamming his weapon forward. 

Something changed in that moment. Kal felt an energy as he held the weapon, an excitement that washed away his pain. He spun, smashing the staff into one of Jost’s hands. 

Jost let go with that hand, screaming. Kal brought his weapon around and slammed it into the boy’s side. Kal had never held a weapon before, never been in a fight any more dangerous than a wrestling match with Tien. But the length of wood felt right in his fingers. He was amazed by how wonderful the moment felt.

Kal was 12 years old here and not yet bonded to Syl. He also trained hard for years with the spear after Tien died. Syl told him she has been looking for him for a long time and "the wind knew him," but her memory and bond with him only began late into his time in Amaram's army, about a year before she first talked to him in the slave wagon. I think he clearly had some skill with the spear before she came along. The bond amplified it to the point where no one can really match his skill with a spear at this point.

Regarding Kaladin not being able to throw a spear with the bum leg, anyone with martial arts training knows that throwing a weapon comes from the feet, legs, and hips. Without a strong rooted connection to the ground, a thrust is just arms flailing about with no real force behind it. The throw would be a dud and the weapon would hit the ground.

Regarding the OP, I agree with others who think squires are a great strength. I cannot wait to see them all working together in unison. I hope they can all travel together with gravitation, otherwise the squires will be constantly running to try and catch up to wherever Kaladin is.

[Velvet Thunder]

I’ve seen many people, normally exceptional at what they do, perform worse than someone with no training because their minds were somewhere else, depressed and off their game. People who would normally stun you with skill reduced to average untrained ability.

Of course, there is no specific WoB that can confirm either way, so perhaps someone should ask next time we have the opportunity. Until then, let the friendly debates continue!

[Nymeros]

3 hours ago, Shuffel said:

Hey buddie. You are getting a bit cancerous, I'm just trying to have a friendly debate.

Calling my post cancerous really detracts from your claim of wanting to be friendly........Why would you type this?

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Legs are huge part of all fighting and sports. That's where your power and control comes from.

We would have to assume Kaladin is unaware of this, yes? That makes little sense considering Kals years of experience.

@Starla I don't recall him attempting to throw his spear.

The implication from WoR is that Kal has always been under the influence of the bond. Can you think of any reasons that Sanderson would choose to have Kaladin and Syl indicate that his talent with a spear as an effect of the Nahel bond if the two are truly unrelated? I cannot. 

It's not as if he has abandoned the idea that Kaladin shared his bond even in childhood......

I find it likely that Shallan also had her incredible artistic ability from her own bond in much the same way.

[Fourth Of The Night]

36 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Calling my post cancerous really detracts from your claim of wanting to be friendly........Why would you type this?

Because you are being needlessly combative and rude. Reign yourself in, dude, we're all friends connected by the love of an artist's works. We're big kids and can disagree without slinging vitriol, kolo?

38 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

The implication from WoR is that Kal has always been under the influence of the bond. Can you think of any reasons that Sanderson would choose to have Kaladin and Syl indicate that his talent with a spear as an effect of the Nahel bond if the two are truly unrelated? I cannot. 

That isn't the implication that I got. As mentioned by @Starla above, Syl says that she searched for Kal for a long time before finding him about a year before she first spoke to him. Yes, the fact that he is a literal paragon with the spear is due to his bond, but he is himself a very knowledgeable spearfighter.

As I said before, and you brushed away seemingly without much thought: Depression is Hell. Intense depression, coupled with the fact that he was heavily injured would do more to Kal that you seem to be willing to admit. Also, while Kal's spearfighting ability isn't based in his bond-He is used to his spear forms while he has it. That means that he would move his body in a way that assumes he has the extra speed, strength, and balance of someone with the bond. Suddenly not having access to those three things, on top of his crippling depression and injury? I absolutely see why he was unable to perform. But that doesn't mean that his knowledge of spearfighting is because of his bond.