TWD - Chapter 11 - kais 09/18/17 5576 words (s)

[kais]

S for a kissing scene. And this sub is long, so apologies. If you don't have time to read it I totally understand. If I broke it in half, I was afraid the emotional tension wouldn't carry. Looking for if S and Sam's interactions are believable, and if the emotional impact of the chapter is stronger now that we've had the interludes. 

 

[TKWade]

-"I want to still do business in M when I come back."  I think this rolls off the tongue odd. I'd reword it if possible.

-If it's so cold that her snot is freezing instantly, why would they be concerned about lakes? Surely they would be covered by several feet of ice.

-Ah, thermal lakes, it becomes clear

-Really good. I was intrigued the whole time. The dialogue was fluid, other than the one snippet mentioned, it all worked really well. Well done! I thought the interaction between S and Sam was on-point and the emotional impact landed well. 

[rdpulfer]

- I really like Sorin fuming about the witch. It shows more personality in the character.

- Good description, especially of the beauty and terror of the ice.

- Ewww frozen snot!

- I like the tension between Sorin and Sammer.

- I really liked this chapter - the character, the interaction, the humor. I really don't have any notes other than that. 

[Mandamon]

Much better chapter. It cuts down a lot on the slogging and talking, and I think it still gets all the salient points across. I also enjoyed the larger theme of magic in this chapter, and building out some of the history. S studying magic is a bit a a contradiction though, so more explanation of why S is suddenly engaging with magic would help. I do agree Sam's emotional impact is better for having the interlude about them.

pg 2: "Sam brushed past me, his shoulder hitting mine hard enough to force me forward.
--maybe too much? I would expect some reaction from S for this. (edit: the one at the end of the chapter works, but still not sure about this one.)

pg 2: also/also two sentences in a row.

pg 2: people live in villages *on* the glacier?

pg 2: "No side trips. Four generations haven’t been able to find Iana’s Lake, and we’re not going to, either."
--glad this clarification is in there, but it's sort of out of the blue. Has anyone else mentioned Iana's lake recently?

The kiss-and-tell section does a better job of getting us information and showing the relationship between S and M. However, why does Sam keep creeping up? I would think after the first time he saw them occupied he would have left them alone for a few minutes.

pg 7: "I shrugged and leaned into M. “She likes curly hair.”"
--Lol

pg 8: "It was an alchemical study, nothing more."
--hmm...I dont' quite buy S wanting to study old magic. S has been violently opposed to it until now, thinking it was a perversion of nature, unless something has changed.

The lake experience with S is much better. Still not completely sure about S wanting to study the lake though.

pg 12: "If the lakes act like that, no wonder the Miantri villagers were spooked when you appeared from nowhere."
--ok, I'll buy this.

pg 12: “I don’t need to get drunk and I have no interest in magic,”
--yeah, this. Why would S go out of the way to study it? S says nearly the same thing a couple more times.

pg 19: “You toss it aside like a toy. Without respect for your guild, or our family’s history.”
--yeah, ok. Have to say I agree. Some of it is A's pushing, but I get the feeling S never full-stop refused to do woodworking, and in a certain sense, was stringing A along with hope that S would change.

[industrialistDragon]

Is this the obligatory "I agree with @Mandamon?" Because I do. This is much improved. I have a better idea of where they are located, and how they are moving. It's a lot more interesting than before as well. 

As I go: 

"glacier looked more like a snowy landscape" well, yes. It would, wouldnt it? being a glacier? this just seems a bit redundant

Thank you for the serac definition.

I am still unclear on why Sa is shepherding them through the glacier. He didn't have a terribly good reason for escorting them out of the village, either, and I'm more unclear as to why he's still hanging around helping them out. (Note from future me: I see he sort of explains it maybe? I don't know if this uncertainty is really working for him right here at this point, though.)

It does seem a little random for Sa to call out M about the lake, unless we're missing some part earlier (not in an interlude) where M somehow indicates it's well known that she's obsessed with it. Because, I thought I remembered last chapter M being worried about getting to the negotiations on time? Presumably someone who cared about meeting deadlines wouldn't be inclined to make costly side-trips on the way to their destination, yes? Or is he just being a jerk? 

"who know and love me instead of you?" While I like the increased motivation, I am confused. They're on a glacier, yes, but Sa just stated earlier he was avoiding all towns. In fact, the only other person with him when he says this line is the literal definition of "loves So and not Sa" and as far as I know, the witch shenanigans kept him from having a discussion with So in the town, so...Why is he out here with them again?

"we were on the opposite bank" -- Of a thing that's little more than a puddle? Is this more symbolic than practical? I'm a bit confused. 

 Sa hanging around the edges of this makeout session feels weird and a little icky. Voyeuristic? Sleazy? Skeevy? Something? I could see him being angry about the delay, and maybe the obvious attempt at subterfuge, but just watching? >_>;;;

"She likes curly hair.” -- it's a good line, but is it a little flippant for So? 

I could really have done with description of the lake a bit earlier so I didn't keep thinking it was a puddle like the ones So mentioned right before they arrived at it. 

This interest in magic also strikes me as a bit out of character for So, unless things have changed significantly and So no longer has a pathological fear of it. 

"Why wouldn’t magic just leave me alone?" well... this time you kind of caused this, So.... The magic WAS leaving you alone, until you poked it...

"This isn’t a political game." ...Except that's kinda exactly what it is? The whole things is basically a textbook example of a political power play.... even without foreknowledge....  >_>;;;

"throw you into a serac." Now that serac has been defined, how does one get thrown into a giant spike of ice? Is M threatening to impale him?

 

Keep it up!

[Robinski]

I’m a bit late, apologies!

• “the temperature warmer higher” – or the air warmer, perhaps. Actually, I find the weather theme in this first paragraph generally a bit vague and slightly confusing.
• “As the conifers around us shortened to head height, then waist, then finally to scrubby bushes, the fungi spun closer together” – sounds like the plants are moving. How do fungi spin?
• “The glacier’s preamble here” – huh? Is this a glaciological term? I don’t know what I'm looking at.
• “because I promised J I would” – I've forgotten who J is.
• “I want to still do business in M” –mostly, I ignore split infinitives now, when critiquing, but this one is particularly stinky. I know it’s dialogue, but if it knocks (some readers, most, any?) readers out of the flow then I think it deserves to be addressed
• “We walked in a single file line” – ugh.
• “the ice was too unpredictable to try walking side by side to share heat” – I’ve got to say, I think this chapter could do with some spit and polish. I'm finding a fair bit of the phrasing kind of rambling, and quite untidy (e.g. this bit).
• “I walked as quickly as I could over to her” – I'm I just really picky today? I mean here, I'm just thinking, “I walked over to her as quickly as I could.” – it seems like just basic phrasing, action then description.
• “I don’t know if he’s affiliated” – is this a change? I'd always assumed the witch’s voice was female.
• “while a princess kisses you” – I think ‘is kissing you’ would be more immediate.
• “And I’m the royal daughter, not a princess” – This is good coming from me, but is this not a formal title and therefore deserving of capitalisation?
• “those who trod across it” – I feel like you tread on something, or stride/walk across it.
• “looking from me, to Magda, then back to me again” – don’t think you need the commas here.
• “She likes curly hair” – personally, I’ve never really had an image of S with curly hair. Maybe you’ve played that up more in earlier chapters this time around.
• “No waves or slippage beveled its surface” – slippage?
• “all around its circumference” – is the lake a circle then?
• Acht, I'm having a discontinuity moment. In the last version, there was a bit of a massacre and it left the three of them together. For some reason, I can’t remember what happened to the rest of the soldiers this time. I guess M sent them back? No doubt you covered this, I just can’t remember.
• “I want to take a closer look” – Hmm, I'm not sure I believe this reaction. S has been pretty much abhorrent of magic for whole story, now a sudden switcheroo? Where did that come from? The pretext seems a bit flimsy. “could trust witches after what they’d done to her, so could I” – again, I just don’t see the trigger for this emotional switch.
• “would never have let the witches’ guild form” – phrasing nagging me. This is talking about the guild, but I feel it would be more effective if the phrasing talked about the witches, e.g. ‘allowed the witches to form a guild’?
• “quickly squashed that idea” – I think using ‘squashed’ instead of ‘quashed’ (which I think is more correct), sounds weird and kind of points to the more appropriate (imho) word.
• How big is this amulet? The amount of alcohol must be tiny.
• “The dotting greens and blues I saw in the distance was were light reflecting”
• “his canteen down and wiped his face”
• “when you could have just as easily fled just as easily once we left the village” – the split infinitive thing again.
• “We’d visited a lot of wood-related guildhalls” – imho, compound adjective.

Good, powerful ending, but I still feel the chapter meanders a bit. I wonder actually if it’s more to do with the language, and if going through a cutting 5 to 10% of the words through more direct phrasing might not actually by the most effective solution for what I'm still tripping on, a bit.

It’s good to see the reason for Sam’s animosity being brought into focus, and also to learn a fair bit of Sor’s background and earlier life. The passion came over well. I think the lowest point for me was the sudden and unexplained interest in magic, and going up to touch it. I was happier with the previous version, when it was all reluctant and antagonistic. That came across consistently, I thought. I suppose it’s possible that, because I'm not reading this version from the beginning, there are earlier changes that would carry me through this new dynamic between S and magic, but the original antipathy is pretty well ingrained in me.

An improvement, but I think it needs more work.

<R>

[kais]

On 9/19/2017 at 7:24 AM, TKWade said:

I think this rolls off the tongue odd. I'd reword it if possible.

Easy enough to do. Thank you for the feedback!

On 9/19/2017 at 4:44 PM, rdpulfer said:

I really don't have any notes other than that. 

Well heck, I'm on a roll. And yeah, frozen snot is gross!

On 9/20/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mandamon said:

S studying magic is a bit a a contradiction though, so more explanation of why S is suddenly engaging with magic would help.

This is my fault. I forgot to mention that I changed a fair bit of the earlier chapters. S now has an interest in magic, which has been repeatedly and resoundingly squashed by the mother. This was supposed to show some growth in S, in breaking from Mother's stranglehold. I probably need to bring that out more if it isn't landing, even without the backstory.

On 9/20/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mandamon said:

I would expect some reaction from S for this.

Good call, and good opportunity to put in a little more guild backstory

On 9/20/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mandamon said:

people live in villages *on* the glacier?

Yes, because it's a magical fantasy land

On 9/20/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mandamon said:

Has anyone else mentioned Iana's lake recently?

No, and I'm debating deleting it entirely, since I removed the whole lake scene anyway. Although maybe it should stay, since I want to do more with the lake in the next book. Unsure. I'm conflicted.

On 9/20/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mandamon said:

However, why does Sam keep creeping up?

Because he's more of a jerk in this version? I need help. I don't know how straight men would react in this situation. 

On 9/20/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mandamon said:

but I get the feeling S never full-stop refused to do woodworking, and in a certain sense, was stringing A along with hope that S would change.

True. I was hoping to walk the line between 'does S just not want to make decisions' or 'is A's presence so imposing that S can't make decisions?'

Thank you for the detailed feedback, as always, @Mandamon!

 

[kais]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I don't know if this uncertainty is really working for him right here at this point, though.)

I don't know if I have adequately explained it. I didn't sub one of the redone chapters where S and Sam meet, so you're missing that part. I think it's 'defined but still nebulous', but I don't know if it lands well enough. I'll probably need to do another straight read through and see.

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Or is he just being a jerk? 

I was trying to spin it as him being a jerk, but if both you and @Mandamon are tripping over it, it probably just needs to come out.

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

While I like the increased motivation, I am confused.

I've cleaned this line up.

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

but just watching? >_>;;;

I need cis het male help here. What would you do? Lesbians (loosely, very loosely), but also your sister? @Mandamon @Robinski @TKWade @rdpulfer help!

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

but is it a little flippant for So? 

I've changed up S's personality a little, so I think this is in line.

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

and So no longer has a pathological fear of it. 

I've moved from 'pathological fear' to 'consistently suppressed childhood interest and fear of maternal retribution'

On 9/20/2017 at 3:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Is M threatening to impale him?

Yes. Yes she is. BWAHAHAHA
Thank you!

 

 

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

I’m a bit late, apologies!

No worries!

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

generally a bit vague and slightly confusing

Will clean

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

How do fungi spin?

The 'mushroom' shaped ones do actually spin together sometimes, especially when the grow in clumps. Is this me being too nerdy?

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

I'm finding a fair bit of the phrasing kind of rambling, and quite untidy

I'd say it's 50% voice, and 50% needs cleanup. One of the things I was trying to do with TWD was to not write in such a sterile manner (my major comment from agents when subbing AFD was that it lacked strong voice). So S, being a proto-scientist, got dialogue and 'voice' much more akin to how we write and talk in the sciences. I'm trying to strike a balance now between the inherent awkwardness of it, and the need to keep an actual voice in the narrative (which, I have been told by recent agents in rejection letters, is actually there this time!).

Meaning, basically, the awkward phasing is mostly on purpose, but needs to be scaled back.

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

is this a change? I'd always assumed the witch’s voice was female.

Nope. He's always been a he

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

but is this not a formal title and therefore deserving of capitalisation?

From my last round with my editor, I think we settled on (for the A series, anyway), that Royal Daughter would be in caps, but the royal daughter would not. 

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

I can’t remember what happened to the rest of the soldiers this time.

No soldiers this time, at all. I did away with them. It's just M and S, and their Sam tagalong.

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

again, I just don’t see the trigger for this emotional switch.

Apologies, I've been skipping around with the new chapters and forgot to mention that I changed S's backstory on this.

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

The amount of alcohol must be tiny.

Is it weird that in my mind, it has about the amount of one of those alcohol-filled chocolates?

On 9/24/2017 at 2:45 AM, Robinski said:

An improvement, but I think it needs more work.

Can do. Thank you for the help!

[Robinski]

2 hours ago, kais said:

spin together sometimes, especially when the grow in clumps

I'm imagining them spinning like tops, at relatively high speed - that can't be right, surely. They'd tear themselves off their 'roots' (or whatever they have). It's the word spin

2 hours ago, kais said:

He's always been a he

My bad. I think I started out assuming it was going to be her mother.

2 hours ago, kais said:

that Royal Daughter would be in caps, but the royal daughter would not

Yeah, I'll take that. So, if she's being addressed it's caps, but referring to her not, because there could (and are?) other royal daughters. Perfect. My comment was incorrect - order is restored to the universe...

2 hours ago, kais said:

No soldiers this time, at all. I did away with them

But when they left from S, M had a retinue, and they were attacked and lots of them killed?

2 hours ago, kais said:

I changed S's backstory on this

Fair enough.

2 hours ago, kais said:

Is it weird that in my mind, it has about the amount of one of those alcohol-filled chocolates?

No, not at all, but still tiny. I felt that the implication of the statement was that there was enough alcohol to give some sort of relief, which implies to me something more like a small hip flask. The amount of alcohol in a liqueur chocolate, I suspect, would just leave someone with the taste on their tongue - certainly if they were going to share it three ways!

 

[Mandamon]

8 hours ago, kais said:

On 9/20/2017 at 6:25 PM, industrialistDragon said:

but just watching? >_>;;;

I need cis het male help here. What would you do? Lesbians (loosely, very loosely), but also your sister? @Mandamon @Robinski @TKWade @rdpulfer help!

I would say engaging once, seeing they were "busy" and studiously and embarrassedly looking at something else until they were finished, but that's just me.

[Robinski]

7 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I would say engaging once, seeing they were "busy" and studiously and embarrassedly looking at something else until they were finished, but that's just me.

Yeah... I think maybe there's a split second of "ooh, la-la" followed by a pinch of acute embarrassment, 5 seconds of self-loathing then simmer in confused discomfort while standing with both feet in a frigid glacial lake.

[kais]

On 9/27/2017 at 1:15 PM, Robinski said:

Yeah... I think maybe there's a split second of "ooh, la-la" followed by a pinch of acute embarrassment, 5 seconds of self-loathing then simmer in confused discomfort while standing with both feet in a frigid glacial lake.

Check! Thank you @Mandamon and @Robinski. I'll go forth and edit