lostn Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I just got done reading the Final Empire. I have not read books 2 or 3. I apologize if this has been discussed before, but please don't make me search through the forums to find my answers because I don't want to inadvertently spoil something from those books. In the epilogue it was explained that LR maintained his eternal youth using tricks that combined Feruchemy with Allomancy. But how was he able to survive violent attempts on his life? Did whatever he found in the cave make him unable to be killed, but not grant eternal youth or immortality from aging? The book describes him as being unkillable. He was burned until all that was left of him was a skeleton. He was beheaded. Impaled by spears. Had his flesh flayed. But none of this killed him. - Was the ability to survive murder also a trick of Feruchemy, or was it from the power he seized from the cave? - If his immortality was from the cave, why did it not also grant eternal youth? - Can anyone who has both Feruchemy and Allomancy do everything he did, or did the cave/well grant him some power they would not have? - If the power from the cave (and not Feruchemy tricks) is what made him immortal, why was he afraid of Terrismen breeding with nobles to create children that could challenge him? What undid his immortality and made him killable was Vin dislodging his bracelets from his arms (curiously, removing them didn't require severing his arms). This seems to imply that the bracelets were responsible for both his youth AND immortality. - Wouldn't some of the methods of attempted murder on him (flaying his flesh, burning him into a skeleton, or severing his limbs) also have dislodged the bracelets and undid his immortality? Don't answer these questions if books 2 and 3 give adequate answers. I just want to know if Mr Sanderson overlooked anything. The reason I haven't read book 2 yet is because I've read a synopsis and reviews and the plot doesn't appeal to me. Book 1 is going to be hard to top. And a book without Kelsier just isn't going to be the same. What made TFE so great was Kelsier, and his conversations with Vin. His hatred of LR was palpable. I also don't think Vin will be as appealing a character now that she's super powerful. I liked the parts where she is learning from her crew, her discovery process. I don't care much for this Elend character or her romance with him. What I enjoyed most about TFE was the struggle against this very evil dark lord's reign, and it's going to be hard to present a new antagonist as evil, powerful or hateable as the Lord Ruler. What adversary could outdo the Lord Ruler? Will book 2 and 3 disappoint or will I like them just as much as book 1? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Youth isn't the only thing you can compound. Health works too. Any Feruchemical attribute can be burned for allomancy. Read the rest of the books. Book 2 isn't quite as good, but it's still great, and Book 3 is great also. Elend does become a more interesting character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarion Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Books 2 and 3 are a bit mixed. I found them really enjoyable on the first time through, but I've not been able to enjoy them nearly as much on the re-read. However, what I found really interesting was following along with Sanderson's annotations for each chapter on his website. Just avoid the hidden spoilers if it's your first time through. However, it's entirely worth powering through, because Alloy of Law is amazing. And if you're worried about an enemy nastier than the Lord Ruler, I'd definitely keep going. As for everything to do with Feruchemy, I think it's all covered by the end of book 3 (and if not, then by Alloy of Law). The reason that removing his embedded armbands was lethal was because he was having to draw them constantly to keep himself young. The moment it stopped, he began reverting to his real age (a thousand years old) which understandably, was less than healthy. As for the other methods of killing him, they'd work if they lasted long enough. But Gold compounders (People with access to both Gold abilities) can heal at a phenomenal rate. And the Lord Ruler had a moment or two to get the armbands back on before it became problematic. Flaying him, burning him, whatever, he'd be fine as long as the armbands stayed touching him. In fact, he'd be healing quicker than you were hurting him. Of course, a hot enough fire might melt his armbands. And, to the best of my knowledge, the books never cover what exactly would happen when his metalminds were melted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostn Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Will those books answer all my questions? I got other books I want to read too, so if they're not as good as book 1, I feel it won't be the most optimal use of my time. I'm not the quickest reader in the world unfortunately, plus I like have the audiobook playing while I read so I know how names are pronounced... Book 1 was written almost standalone. There is a satisfying conclusion, so I won't feel like I wasted my time on an incomplete story if I don't continue reading the rest of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostn Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) And if you're worried about an enemy nastier than the Lord Ruler, I'd definitely keep going. Is he only nastier in power, or intent and oppression as well? Executing random skaa for hours says a lot about LR as a person. The reason that removing his embedded armbands was lethal was because he was having to draw them constantly to keep himself young. The moment it stopped, he began reverting to his real age (a thousand years old) which understandably, was less than healthy. But what actually killed him was a spear that impaled him. Those armbands were only metalminds for his youth, right? As for the other methods of killing him, they'd work if they lasted long enough. But Gold compounders (People with access to both Gold abilities) can heal at a phenomenal rate. And the Lord Ruler had a moment or two to get the armbands back on before it became problematic. Flaying him, burning him, whatever, he'd be fine as long as the armbands stayed touching him. In fact, he'd be healing quicker than you were hurting him. This is the part I'm struggling with. If his arms were cut off, the armbands would no longer be touching him (or at least the main part of him). And without his arms, he wouldn't be able to pick them back up and reattach them... I think. If his flesh was torn off, the armbands would be removed. If he was burned to a skeleton, the armbands would be too loose to fit on him again. Also, when Vin pulled them off him, I'd imagine they would have had to sever his arms in order to be freed from him, unless she pulled them down his elbows, wrists and off his hands, which I imagine would not be easy to do because his hands are thicker than his wrists. I guess you've answered my other question: Whatever power he seized when he killed the real hero of ages didn't grant him immortality. P.S. Alloy of Law is book 1 of a new trilogy. I don't want to rush into that since I like starting a series when the whole thing is finished. I can't remember all the names of people and places and new terminology if I wait a year or two between books. Plus Sanderson seems to move between series a lot instead of focusing on one. Edited February 16, 2014 by lostn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) The reason the metalminds stayed in contact is because he heals faster than you can damage him. As he burns he's already healing, so he never gets all the way to a skeleton. When he's flayed, the lost skin regrows right as it's torn off. If you cut off his arms, they'd have already reattached before the sword had passed all the way through. As for how she got the metalminds off him, iirc they were taken off like any bracelet: down the arms and off the hands. You really should read the books. They're worth it just for how ridiculously badass Spook gets in Book 3. As for the new bad guy, his intent is most definitely nasty. Edited February 16, 2014 by PorridgeBrick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yeah as people have mentioned, the Lord Ruler compounded more than Youth, he also compounded things like Health (which is par of how he survived all those attempts on his life). Also keep in mind that some of the stories stretch the truth, for instance the story about him being beheaded, the sword didn't completely sever the head. I would also recommend continuing the trilogy, you really haven't seen anything yet, the Lord Ruler was never the biggest bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Is he only nastier in power, or intent and oppression as well? Executing random skaa for hours says a lot about LR as a person. One of the things I actually enjoyed about books 2 and 3 is how Brandon managed to changed my feelings for TLR from loathing to pity by the end of the series. That dynamic was almost worth the read in itself. I wouldn't say the Big Bad is "nastier" than TLR but he is a more subtle and manipulative which makes him an interesting villain in his own right. Can't really say much more than that without giving too much away but I enjoyed the whole series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirscott13 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Also to note is that the compounded health not only heals any wound that can be dealt to him (Read alloy of law and witness this power with miles hundredlives) but he also had a huge amount of pewter allomancy. TLR made himself an incredibly strong allomancer with the well of ascension. This is why his soothing is so powerful. But his pewter is also incredibly powerful. So almost any form of violence would barely phase him, then his healing abilities granted from compounding feruchemical gold would reset his body. He would be impossible to kill or defeat except for that achelles heel in his atrium minds. Granted earlier in his years of ruling, even this would not kill him so fast, it took a thousand years of cognitive aging for him to be defeated so easily. His body was so old in technical terms that it wanted to return back to natural AKA old dusty skeleton. but if it was only a hundred years out of whack, he might of aged slower and gone to retrieve his atiumminds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) TLR made himself an incredibly strong allomancer with the well of ascension. This is why his soothing is so powerful. But his pewter is also incredibly powerful. Minor nitpick: this wasn't why his Soothing was so powerful. He was cheating in other ways. I believe the most common theory for that is he was using a nicrosilmind with stored Investiture to enhance his Allomancy, or else infused the mists into brass/the nicrosilmind , though I could be wrong there. Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirscott13 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have it confirmed to my by Word of Brandon at the steelheart signing in orem that he made himself just an incredibly strong allomancer with the well of ascension and that is why it is so powerful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I have it confirmed to my by Word of Brandon at the steelheart signing in orem that he made himself just an incredibly strong allomancer with the well of ascension and that is why it is so powerful This WoB disagrees, though it has spoilers up to Mistborn 2 so I am spoilering it: BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength. There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy. (Note, we have discussed this on the forums a while back. This isn't news.) (source) It's paraphrased, but interesting. Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirscott13 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 maybe there is a way to compound to enhance allomancy but that doesn't mean the WoB I have is false... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Here is a WoB on the issue: Chris King (Miyabi) This is the last one here we have from Mistborn: Did the Lord Ruler use lerasium to gain his super Allomantic abilities or did he grant that to himself with the Well's power? If he used the bead, does he count as one of the nine original Allomancers that Sazed mentions? Brandon Sanderson Excellent question. He did not use the bead… In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads. (source) But Sirscott is right, just because the Lord Ruler possibly used compounding to fuel allomancy at times (which is a process that we don't really understand as of yet) doesn't entirely explain his strength. The Lord Ruler was utterly strong with allomancy, probably stronger than a lerasium-mistborn, he didn't need any tricks to overwhelm a coppercloud with emotional allomancy, especially in the later years of his reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) The Lord Ruler was utterly strong with allomancy, probably stronger than a lerasium-mistborn It's worth noting that TLR was tapping Compounded weight, so his pushes were naturally going to be very powerful. Not sure if tapping weight would let someone push on metals in another person's body, though. Do we know anything about that? It's also possible he tapped connection from a metalmind to increase the strength of his Soothing in an equivalent move. I do think the process of fueling Allomancy with Feruchemy is pretty easy to understand if you just view it as a reverse of using Allomancy to power Feruchemy. With Compounding, the Feruchemical charges in the metal 'filter' the Investiture that goes through the metal. The Investiture 'copies' the Feruchemical charge, and you get a Feruchemical effect. In the reverse, you burn a metal with Allomancy, and tap your nicrosilmind - the raw Investiture from your nicrosilmind then copies the Allomantic effect your metals are producing, and you get it at an increased strength. (This is in line with the MAG rules on Feruchemical nicrosil and using it with other metalminds.) Nicrosilminds might not be necessary, though. Apparently you could infuse metals with the mists. It's also possible TLR was cheating and using mechanical Allomancy with a Soother-fabrial thing, if those even exist. Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarion Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Not sure if tapping weight would let someone push on metals in another person's body, though. Do we know anything about that? It's also possible he tapped connection from a metalmind to increase the strength of his Soothing in an equivalent move. There's something about this in the annotations for one of the books (Well of Ascension, I think), when talking about Inquisitors. Basically, anyone who could burn Iron or Steel would be able to learn to see metals in everything. It's just a case of sensitivity and experience (which, looking back, seems to imply Savantism). I don't think it's too much of a stretch from seeing the lines to just requiring a particularly strong push (as granted by his weight and innate Allomantic strength) at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 the lord ruler, with compounding, had basically limitless amount of feruchemical storage. limitles youth, limitless healt, limitles strenght, limitless speed... as long as he has metals, i can't really think of any way to kill him that would be available to a preindustrial society. ok, removing his metalminds would work, and also beheading him in a single blow, but good luck doing that to him. in the modern world it should be easier, just hit him with a cannon and it should be enough to stop him regenerating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'm not sure the cannon would work. Miles can survive a point blank explosion from dynamite without a scratch, and he doesn't have pewter or nicrosil to boost his gold like TLR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Bury him under a mountain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirscott13 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Really the only other way I can think of to kill a limitless health ferring would be to kill him in a way that requires more than just health, you could overheat them to the point that thy don't have the physical matter to make blood (unless you are the lord ruler and have unlimited calories and hydration stored). Or you could crush them to the point that they would zap more and more health to not be crushed. Basically you would have to cause continuous damage where their body would require more and more health creating an exponential decay of their metal minds and then you could take away all their health. This is similar to how the lord ruler ages quicker and quicker due to removed atiumminds. The body wants to return to a natural state. So by causing continuous damage such as tons of electricity for a few minutes, the body will heal itself more and more and that unlimited health gets sucked away much more quickly then just shooting them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I'm not sure the cannon would work. Miles can survive a point blank explosion from dynamite without a scratch, and he doesn't have pewter or nicrosil to boost his gold like TLR. that was a small charge and only destroied his hand. was thinking of soemthing bigger, something that will tear his body apart in pieces suitable to be collected with a spoon. THAT should be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monomanamaniac Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 First of all, cutting his head off wouldn't of worked, neither would trying to crush him. Gold compounding can literally work so fast that his head would regen before you even get it off, miles even takes a close range shotgun to the face and (though not canon it's a very useful tool) the adventure game even states they can regenerate their head for a full metalminds worth of gold. Crushing him fails because of unlimited weight with unlimited strength, basically even if you literally dropped a mountain in the guy he could just make himself heavier than the damnation thing and lob it in your general direction. Honestly I've played around with how the various powers would work and honestly I have no idea how vin, even with ALL the power of the mist, could've beat him that way (unlimited weight while pulling on them). Even burning him is pointless, he can tap warmth and make himself whatever temp you're trying to harm him with and the books even state that he has been burned to almost a Skelton and walked away from that. Oh and anything you think you're going to do to him is going to fail (unlimited luck, unlimited mental and physical speed, see the future with atium= done). Honestly once you factor in using unholy allomatic strength with feruchemic compounding, you're basically dealing with a god as long as he has his metals. His boasts were not as lofty as kelsier would like everyone to think 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, Monomanamaniac said: vin, even with ALL the power of the mist, could've beat him that way (unlimited weight while pulling on them). Probably because TLR was a little bit insane by that point and honestly was caught off guard, plus was unaccustomed to actual struggling (much less from a traitorous Inquisitor) for the last nearly thousand years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 @Monomanamaniac First off, welcome to the Shard! Second, going forward you really should check the last posting date before bumping a topic. This one was dead for almost five years. And yes, Rashek tends to be on the top of the list for 'most powerful entity that is not a Shard' with everyone else fighting for second place, assuming he actually bothers to go all-out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 0:32 AM, Weltall said: @Monomanamaniac First off, welcome to the Shard! Second, going forward you really should check the last posting date before bumping a topic. This one was dead for almost five years. And yes, Rashek tends to be on the top of the list for 'most powerful entity that is not a Shard' with everyone else fighting for second place, assuming he actually bothers to go all-out. Well, a certain lovable sword is actually the ‘most powerful entity that is not a Shard.’ Though Rashek (or anyone with the Bands for that matter) is definitely the next most powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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