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Confused

Voidbringing, Hemalurgy and the Recreance

7 posts in this topic

I think the KR abandoned their oaths in the Recreance because they discovered that Odium had the ability to control their Radiantspren. I believe Voidbringing is Odium’s form of Hemalurgy. I speculate Odium used Voidbringing to inject voidspren into Radiantspren. I believe this is the Diagram’s “secret” that destroyed the KR.

Here’s my logic:

1. I think Hemalurgy is the ability to transfer innate Investiture from one entity to another. @Cowmanthethirdreminds me that, technically, “Hemalurgy” is Ruin’s magic system, since it relies on blood to effectuate the transfer. But I think the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name) is available to every Shard, subject to their Mandate (intent). Even non-Awakening Breath transfers IMO are Endowment’s form of Hemalurgy, since Breaths are innate Investiture. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are "not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools." That includes the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name).

2. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) is Odium’s “possession” magic. He gains control of a soul by changing the soul’s innate Investiture. I believe Roshar’s innate Investiture always manifests as spren. Rosharans call spren a “soul.” The Rider of Storms is the “soul” of the storm. When Fleet dies, his “soul” rises into the storm “forever to race the wind” – a windspren. A Tai-na’s spren is its “soul.”

3. Voidspren IMO are Odium’s Hemalurgical “spikes” – Odium Investiture (voidspren) injected into a soul’s innate Investiture (the host spren). I think this WoB confirms that (emphasis added):

Quote

[T]he kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.

Listeners bond with pre-Shattering spren. I think the only listener forms that rely on “hole-less” spren are the Lost Legion’s five basic forms. IMO, stormspren are a pre-Shattering spren Odium controls through a voidspren. In Dalinar’s Purelake vision, a voidspren-injected “host” spren becomes a Thunderclast.

4. In this post, I theorize Radiantspren combine two pre-Shattering spren. Those are the spren that give Radiantspren their ability to Focus two powers. I believe it’s possible for Odium to control the Radiantspren by injecting a voidspren into one or both of those spren or the Radiantspren itself, perhaps through the “hole” created by the combination.

5. Odium might have corrupted earlier KR generations this way. The Surgebinder War that preceded Nohadon’s Desolation may be an example. Vorin contempt for the KR may stem from their Odium-corrupted behavior as much as the Recreance. I think the Recreance KR discovered their exposure to Odium. The KR had to abandon their oaths in unison.

6. I think Odium has gained control of other spren. I’ve long believed the Heralds are spren – each a Horatius guarding the bridge between Braize’s and Roshar’s subastrals. Here’s Kalak’s description of Jezrien in the SLA Prelude:

Quote

He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.

Some posters believe Odium corrupted Ishar as well as Jezrien. IMO, Odium now controls the Stormfather.

7. I think Voidbringing is reversible. My Odium mantra: Hate corrodes and divides. It spoils relationships. I think Odium’s Mandate (intent) severs Connections. His Investiture cannot form its own bonds and instead “unmakes” souls. IMO, voidspren are like electrodes inserted into the host spren. They can be removed without damage to the host. The Nahel bond, in contrast, mingles souls.

That’s my speculation, anyway. Enjoy yourselves!

Edited by Confused
To re-insert deleted sentences in first paragraph that address Calderis' concerns.
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As per the Mistborn annotations, Hemalurgy is Ruin's magic system. 

As per this WoB from GenCon 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal connection.

Hemalurgy involves metal and spikes on non Scadrian worlds, for non Scadrian traits. 

I already know you disagree, but I feel compelled to present the evidence we have in counterpoint. 

Hemalurgy, by all evidence, is Ruin's magic system, and presents itself uniformly Cosmere wide, like every other magic system. 

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I Will not Talk about the wider Realmatic side of the question as Hemalurgy has already an huge topic similar on it.

(I am quite sure you Will already know I disagree with your point :D )

I Will Simply considerate this thing from the Logic point.

There are many beings Who were alive then and are still living now (The Heralds, many Spren) and there are culture that keeps Memories of the old events.(Listeners)

I strongly believe that someone of them Will say something on the matter.

Nale himself started to Hunt surgebinder only After an Ishar's bad advice not for some personal knowledge and he didn't even try to harm or capture Radiantspren.

The Cognitive beings are also able to feel the Investiture's source and no Spren (Sul for example) feel nothing strange in the Stormfather's signature.

Unless you are proposing that every Spren is a double Agent and lie all' the time, your hipotesis is Simply freaking weird.

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So the big issue I have with this is that the KR killed all of their spren. I don't believe it would be possible to convince all the KR, especially the windrunners to kill their spren just because some of them were being corrupted.  I think it would be more likely for them to tell their spren to stop forming bonds and then let the KR die off over time or even do the honorable thing and sacrifice themselves to protect their spren. They would stop the members of their orders who were corrupted and the bonding would not continue. I don't think they would decide that the best option was to commit genocide when there were other options. 

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I like the idea of the voidspren corrupting Radiant spren but I have to agree Numhukumakiaki'aialunamor, I don't believe it would convince all of the Radiants to abandon their oaths. You don't essentially kill one of your closest partners over a what if or a possibility. 

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On 9/14/2017 at 9:41 PM, Calderis said:

I already know you disagree, but I feel compelled to present the evidence we have in counterpoint. 

Hemalurgy, by all evidence, is Ruin's magic system, and presents itself uniformly Cosmere wide, like every other magic system.

Actually, I do agree with this and the cosmere-wide applicability of Hemalurgy. I said the same thing in the OP (before edits):

On 9/14/2017 at 9:33 PM, Confused said:

“Hemalurgy” is Ruin’s magic system...

I believe, however, every Shard can use every power. It may be harder for some Shards to use certain powers, but they can all do it. Here’s what my OP edit added to it:

On 9/14/2017 at 9:33 PM, Confused said:

This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are "not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools." That includes the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name).

IMO, Hemalurgy, Voidbringing, and non-Awakening Breath transfers share this ability to transfer innate Investiture. Windrunners and Coinshots also seem to share abilities (to change gravitational pull), as do Lightweavers and Soul Forgers (to transform souls).

NP if you disagree. The OP's main point is that Voidbringing is Odium’s “possession” magic and is the reason for the Recreance. There is text and WoB support for the first conclusion:

Quote

It seemed that everybody knew something about the Voidbringers. People in rural areas spoke of them as mysterious creatures that came out at night, stealing from the unlucky and punishing the foolish. Those Voidbringers seemed more mischievous than evil. But then there would be the odd story about a Voidbringer taking on the form of a wayward traveler who—after receiving kindness from a tallew farmer—would slaughter the entire family, drink their blood, then write voidish symbols across the walls in black ash.

Most people in the cities, however, saw the Voidbringers as spirits who stalked at night, a kind of evil spren that invaded the hearts of men and made them do terrible things. When a good man grew angry, it was the work of a Voidbringer.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 632). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition (emphasis added).

Quote

What if the Voidbringers were behind the visions? Some stories he heard said that they could possess the bodies of men and make them do evil.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 860). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition (emphasis added).

In-world characters can be wrong, and these passages (from Shallan and Dalinar) seem based on superstition. These passages don’t address the “spren possession” idea. But they do fit with Brandon’s statement about how Odium controls spren.

If Odium can inject voidspren into pre-Shattering spren, which Brandon confirms, then IMO Odium can also control Radiantspren the same way. As I say in the OP, I believe Radiantspren are the combination of "lesser" spren (Brandon's word). Odium's ability to control Radiantspren seems ample cause for the Recreance.

On 9/15/2017 at 10:13 AM, Yata said:

There are many beings Who were alive then and are still living now (The Heralds, many Spren) and there are culture that keeps Memories of the old events.(Listeners)

I strongly believe that someone of them Will say something on the matter.

Once again you make a good argument. But I’ve not suggested all Heralds are possessed, only Jezrien and maybe Ishar. Aside from the Prelude, the WoK Prologue (maybe), or some other cameo, we’ve not seen either Herald appear on-screen. We can’t know what they remember or how they behave or whether they would say something about it. Jezrien’s current “drooling” state (if that’s really him) suggests something ruined him.

Pattern says almost no Radiantspren survived the Recreance. Syl states the Stormfather is “broken.” I’m not suggesting that “brokenness” comes from the Stormfather’s possession. It’s probably because of Honor’s death and the Stormfather absorbing Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow. But I do think such “brokenness” might be a predicate to possession, just like a broken soul enables Radiantspren to bond with their KR. I also believe the Lost Legion’s memories and their Songs support the notion that voidspren possessed listeners through their spren.

7 hours ago, Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor said:

I don't believe it would be possible to convince all the KR, especially the windrunners to kill their spren just because some of them were being corrupted.

Hmmmm… What if your friend’s dog runs with your dog and becomes rabid? Assume there are no rabies tests or vaccines and the first sign of your dog’s rabies is when he becomes a mass killer. (Cujo anyone?) You wouldn’t put him down before that happens?

The OP is speculative. It tries to explain why mass concurrent bond-breaking may have been necessary. Perhaps a poster previously suggested Odium’s control over Radiantspren to explain this, but I didn’t see such a post. Among the explanations I have seen, this one seems to me the most likely.  

Edited by Confused
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6 hours ago, Confused said:

IMO, Hemalurgy, Voidbringing, and non-Awakening Breath transfers share this ability to transfer innate Investiture. Windrunners and Coinshots also seem to share abilities (to change gravitational pull), as do Lightweavers and Soul Forgers (to transform souls).

The problem lies here I suppose.

Hemalurgy, Awakening and Feruchemy (you forgot it, but it's not an issue) have ways to trasfer Innate Investiture( By the way if you count Voidbringing into "inject Innate Investiture" you have to count Surgebinding in it too as the RadiantSpren merge with the Knights' souls) but this will not be enough to control someone.

You took the specific Hemalurgy's istance and you apply its rules to every kind of Innate Investiture manipulation. The Vodiumspren carries some kind of Odium's backdoor but this would not be a "power" rather it's just a passive and pervasive effect carried by Splinters....The Radiantspren have to carry the same backdoor from H&C (and as we are now in SA's forum I will stop here with the examples) but I don't think it will be enough to proper control someone. The Listeners are a bit a special case as they are "unwhole" at all without a Form, their Spren's bond change them deeply in body, mind and (if the change in the Rhytms means something) Soul (I have a good analogue for them but it's from a Mistborn's book, I will not write it here but I imagine you could figure it).

Lastly we had three Shards on Roshar, so IF for hypotesis the Shards could control Radiants:

- Odium is able to infect a Radiant Spren (by the way I see it as possible but hard to hide from others' Spren)

- Odium have to put enough Investiture into the Spren to meaningfully affect it (for meaningfully I meant enough to be on pair with H&C's influences)

- Odium have to overcome the H&C's effort to stop him and take control of a Radiant.

- All of this without the Radiants' know it for a lot of Desolations.

6 hours ago, Confused said:

Once again you make a good argument. But I’ve not suggested all Heralds are possessed, only Jezrien and maybe Ishar. Aside from the Prelude, the WoK Prologue (maybe), or some other cameo, we’ve not seen either Herald appear on-screen. We can’t know what they remember or how they behave or whether they would say something about it. Jezrien’s current “drooling” state (if that’s really him) suggests something ruined him.

Pattern says almost no Radiantspren survived the Recreance. Syl states the Stormfather is “broken.” I’m not suggesting that “brokenness” comes from the Stormfather’s possession. It’s probably because of Honor’s death and the Stormfather absorbing Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow. But I do think such “brokenness” might be a predicate to possession, just like a broken soul enables Radiantspren to bond with their KR. I also believe the Lost Legion’s memories and their Songs support the notion that voidspren possessed listeners through their spren.

yeah I know you didn't. But the problem remains, unless ALL the Spren, Heralds and Honor are simply lying someone will point it out this already.

In Dalinar's visions Honor didn't mention anything wrong with the KR (by the way, if the Spren will be able to control the Radiant....I don't think they will allow to be killed by the Radiant that day) and neither the Stormfather or Syl feel something of Odium from the Shards (by the way this last point is really valueless as Syl maybe wasn't never near an Infected Blade).

By the way in your model, what do you think the 10 Voidbinding levels are ?

PS: I was sleeping just some minutes ago, some of my writing could be confused (puns intended XD), I am willing to clarify everything I wrote in a messy way

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